Some things that had taken me too long to understand

[Howl]

On 10/30/2019 at 7:52 AM, Anna T said:

Hey, I wrote this, posted this, and am reading the reply. You don't have to use third person ? 

Sorry! When I posted that, I was confusing you with someone else we followed on fj and didn't realize you were posting about your own experience!  

@Anna T, wishing you the very best as you move forward through your life adventures.   Wonderful to see your new insights and making good decisions for yourself and your kids.  Thank you for sharing this with us. 

[Anna T]

2 hours ago, Howl said:

Sorry! When I posted that, I was confusing you with someone else we followed on fj and didn't realize you were posting about your own experience!  

@Anna T, wishing you the very best as you move forward through your life adventures.   Wonderful to see your new insights and making good decisions for yourself and your kids.  Thank you for sharing this with us. 

Thank you!

By the way, I just thought I should stress I don't remotely feel any physical threat towards myself or my children. If I should trust my gut, I would say that physically at least we're safe. 

Also, financially, I am currently at a point when I'm as little dependent on my husband as could be. He doesn't work. We live in a house belonging to my mom (so essentially it's my turf, not his). I pay the utility bills. Our accounts are separate. 

That is to say that I'm really at a point in my life where I don't have any excuses to make - excuses based on fear, you know ("he provides for me"/ "I have nowhere to go"). In fact, I daresay my husband would have a lot more to lose in the case of a separation. 

I am looking in the face of reality and trying my best to figure out what would be the best course of action for everyone involved. It's very sobering. But at least I'm not sobbing my head off every night anymore. 

[Briefly]

12 hours ago, Anna T said:

Thank you. To be frank I've given up hoping that, with time and patience and a sprinkle of fairy dust, my husband will suddenly look at me and appreciate just how much I'm trying to give and how hard I'm working. I have waited on this too long and it's not healthy to pin your happiness on something you can in no way control. 

@Briefly I'm so sorry you're going through this situation. If you are quite sure leaving would be in your and your daughter's best interest, you can still do that, it's not too late. But only you can know it of course. These things are so incredibly complicated. 

I have often wondered what makes a person emotionally abusive. My father-in-law is a self-centered abuser with an ugly, unfeeling heart who can nevertheless amp up the charm. He is incredibly articulate and has a high erudition and a great sense of humor. But he can get really nasty and had always treated my mother-in-law, the kindest, sweetest and most generous woman I have ever known, like a piece of worthless trash. I didn't know that before I got married. A friend who had gone through an ugly divorce had warned me: look at the family very carefully. But I think that even if I had dated my husband for years, the FIL would have been cautious around me until I was officially family and he could let his mask fall off. 

My first instance of witnessing his ugly behavior was about a month after my marriage. One of my sisters-in-law was late for a family gathering. He lashed out on her in front of everyone, reducing her to tears. As she sobbed and rushed for the door, she vowed to never set foot in that house again. And she was true to her word. Her children are completely alienated from my father-in-law, and serves him right (I'm only sorry that, by extension, they have no relationship with their grandma either). 

We personally have experienced his narcissistic passive aggressive behavior after my son was born and we refused to name him after my father-in-law (that's a Sephardi custom, but no grandfather I had ever known was foolish enough to ruin the joy of a new grandson because of a self-centered whim). 

Last time my two eldest came back from a visit to their grandparents, they marched up to me and asked the meaning of a certain word. It was a disgusting swear word. Did they pick it up on the street? Nope, they explained that this is how grandpa calls grandma. They didn't understand the exact meaning but they did feel enough tension and anger not to want to come back there too often. Smart girls. Again, I wish I could visit with my mother-in-law separately, but her husband won't let her leave the house to do anything fun. She had never had a friend or a hobby and is mostly out of touch with her family. 

She used to work as a cleaner in a family health center - grueling hard work, but she loved it because it gave her some respite from the relentless emotional abuse. Not money though. She never had access to their bank account. 

I'm giving all of this background because, while it doesn't excuse, it does explain a lot. At the beginning of our marriage my husband expressed his desire NOT to become like his father, but some things are just wired into him. They have had polygamous marriages in their family right up to the generation that came to Israel and both my father-in-law and my husband have expressed numerous times the idea that this is a legitimate family model and a possible solution to late singleness and marriage problems as "women don't tend to complain when each is busy competing for the husband's favor".

So you take such a man and place him in the position of Supreme Overlord whose wife is completely dependent on him and can't even get to the post office if he doesn't drive her. He has SO many opportunities to power over her. If he decides she gets no potatoes from the grocery store, she has to do without. If he decides she won't get to her bank to withdraw her money, she won't have access to her money. If he drives away for several days and takes the kids and leaves her stranded and alone, there is nothing she can do.

You put it all together, and you don't get good things. Because power corrupts, you know? 

I have thought about leaving, and we have discussed divorcing.  Our daughter is grown now and on out on her own, but she has told me more than once that she wishes I would leave.  Mainly, it's for financial reasons that I haven't. We generally get along ok now, but there are a lot of times we don't.  I am not ruling it out, but at this point in time we are not going to divorce.  I could probably support myself but it would be tight.  I work for a very small oil company and my boss may want to close it and retire in the next few years.  At my age, late 50's, it would be hard to find a job that I could support myself with.  However, if I do decide that is what I need to do then I will do it and not look back.

I do know what you mean about looking at the family before you marry into it. Mr. Briefly's father was in the Army and was a Drill Instructor - the ones who take the raw recruits, basically bully them into breaking down and then rebuilding them into soldiers.  He was unable to leave that at work, he raised his children - at least his two sons - that way.  When Mr. Briefly was about 9 or so, his parents divorced and after a while his father abandoned them.  Mr. Briefly's mom is another issue altogether and her main thing was to find a man who had money. Which she did, and she turned a blind eye when he beat her two sons along with his own.  Eventually, she left him and then was a single mother but she was one who was basically chasing men in hopes of finding another rich one.  I did not learn all that about her until well after we were married.  When Mr. Briefly was in his late teens, he tracked his father down and at that point his father re-entered their lives.  At the time, Mr. Briefly stated that he would never be like his father was, if we actually managed to have children.  When, after 7 years, we did manage it, he promised me without any prompting from me, that he would never turn into his father and that he would do everything he could to be a good father and not like the one he had or like his stepfather.  Well, he didn't turn into his stepfather, but he certainly did turn into the type of father he had.  He was too strict with our daughter before our attempt at a fundy lifestyle, but in what seemed like the blink of an eye he went from being strict to being a drill sargent with her as well as me.   I try not to blame him for that, because he really did not have a good father or male role model and his mother was not a very good mother either.  We didn't along the best before what I call our fundy mistake, but it was so much worse after.  I argued, I tried to stand up for myself and her, I did everything I could not to put up with it.  I finally said "enough" but I should have done it years before I did.

Our daughter has very little relationship with her grandparents on Mr. Briefly's side, a few months back we had a major blowup with his extremely hypocritical mom but his dad & stepmother had already alienated her.  I supported her in the situation with his mother and made no secret of that, and he has gotten to a point where he's accepted my actions but he still refuses to see that his mother was very wrong for what she did and that I was right to stand up for our daughter.

[Anna T]

4 hours ago, Briefly said:

I have thought about leaving, and we have discussed divorcing.  Our daughter is grown now and on out on her own, but she has told me more than once that she wishes I would leave.  Mainly, it's for financial reasons that I haven't. We generally get along ok now, but there are a lot of times we don't.  I am not ruling it out, but at this point in time we are not going to divorce.  I could probably support myself but it would be tight.  I work for a very small oil company and my boss may want to close it and retire in the next few years.  At my age, late 50's, it would be hard to find a job that I could support myself with.  However, if I do decide that is what I need to do then I will do it and not look back.

I do know what you mean about looking at the family before you marry into it. Mr. Briefly's father was in the Army and was a Drill Instructor - the ones who take the raw recruits, basically bully them into breaking down and then rebuilding them into soldiers.  He was unable to leave that at work, he raised his children - at least his two sons - that way.  When Mr. Briefly was about 9 or so, his parents divorced and after a while his father abandoned them.  Mr. Briefly's mom is another issue altogether and her main thing was to find a man who had money. Which she did, and she turned a blind eye when he beat her two sons along with his own.  Eventually, she left him and then was a single mother but she was one who was basically chasing men in hopes of finding another rich one.  I did not learn all that about her until well after we were married.  When Mr. Briefly was in his late teens, he tracked his father down and at that point his father re-entered their lives.  At the time, Mr. Briefly stated that he would never be like his father was, if we actually managed to have children.  When, after 7 years, we did manage it, he promised me without any prompting from me, that he would never turn into his father and that he would do everything he could to be a good father and not like the one he had or like his stepfather.  Well, he didn't turn into his stepfather, but he certainly did turn into the type of father he had.  He was too strict with our daughter before our attempt at a fundy lifestyle, but in what seemed like the blink of an eye he went from being strict to being a drill sargent with her as well as me.   I try not to blame him for that, because he really did not have a good father or male role model and his mother was not a very good mother either.  We didn't along the best before what I call our fundy mistake, but it was so much worse after.  I argued, I tried to stand up for myself and her, I did everything I could not to put up with it.  I finally said "enough" but I should have done it years before I did.

Our daughter has very little relationship with her grandparents on Mr. Briefly's side, a few months back we had a major blowup with his extremely hypocritical mom but his dad & stepmother had already alienated her.  I supported her in the situation with his mother and made no secret of that, and he has gotten to a point where he's accepted my actions but he still refuses to see that his mother was very wrong for what she did and that I was right to stand up for our daughter.

I'm so sorry you had/have to go through this. As I said before, I believe in explanations but not excuses. There can be background that makes one predisposed to abuse (or diabetes). But this doesn't mean one has the right to bully his wife (or eat sugar glazed doughnuts) with no impunity. 

In a way I'm incredibly grateful for my husband's unemployment and our subsequent crisis. It stripped off so many levels of this twisted situation, leaving the core exposed. I used to be cowered by the whole "Oh but he pays the bills and owns this house so I had better hunker down and try to make the best of it." No. It was never about that. Proof is that I'm not looking to become a SO (Supreme Overlord) in my own right. I just want us to be two grownup individuals respecting each other. 

Fear. There used to be so much fear. For years, after I would break down and demand fair treatment, he would eventually snap, "You don't like it? Get a divorce" which would shut me up because OMG what will I do if he leaves, right??

At some point I got desperate and said, yeah, OK. We might have to do it because I just can't go on any longer. And you know what happened? He stopped saying that. Because he never wanted a divorce. He must know as well as I do that women don't usually line up for 40-year-old unemployed divorced men with a bunch of kids who have moved back with their parents (which is inevitably where he would have to go). 

So he had a very cozy spot. Lord it and threaten to leave if he meets with resistance. My own stupidity at being the dupe of this is just mind-boggling. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Anna T
Typo

[AmazonGrace]

Is he likely to google your blog and find this thread?

[Briefly]

19 hours ago, Anna T said:

I'm so sorry you had/have to go through this. As I said before, I believe in explanations but not excuses. There can be background that makes one predisposed to abuse (or diabetes). But this doesn't mean one has the right to bully his wife (or eat sugar glazed doughnuts) with no impunity. 

In a way I'm incredibly grateful for my husband's unemployment and our subsequent crisis. It stripped off so many levels of this twisted situation, leaving the core exposed. I used to be cowered by the whole "Oh but he pays the bills and owns this house so I had better hunker down and try to make the best of it." No. It was never about that. Proof is that I'm not looking to become a SO (Supreme Overlord) in my own right. I just want us to be two grownup individuals respecting each other. 

Fear. There used to be so much fear. For years, after I would break down and demand fair treatment, he would eventually snap, "You don't like it? Get a divorce" which would shut me up because OMG what will I do if he leaves, right??

At some point I got desperate and said, yeah, OK. We might have to do it because I just can't go on any longer. And you know what happened? He stopped saying that. Because he never wanted a divorce. He must know as well as I do that women don't usually line up for 40-year-old unemployed divorced men with a bunch of kids who have moved back with their parents (which is inevitably where he would have to go). 

So he had a very cozy spot. Lord it and threaten to leave if he meets with resistance. My own stupidity at being the dupe of this is just mind-boggling. 

We have had a similar moment, I was always in charge of the finances because I am very organized and he isn't. But at one point he did tell me that he should be in charge, but he did at least listen when I gave him examples of what had happened in the past when he did try to make the financial decisions.  He was laid off from his job a few years ago and he did try to find another one, but there really isn't anything in his field. We had a part-time side business which he has managed to make into a full-time business, it does bring in some money but not what he made before.  However, we have had to refinance our house so instead of being paid off in about 7 years, we are now looking at 23 more years but at least the payments are affordable.  The mortgage is entirely in my name, due to my being employed.  We had a pretty big blowup a couple of months back over some unforgivable things his mom said to/about our daughter and even though she is an adult, it was a situation where she needed me to help her stand up to a bullying grandmother. Which I did. Mr. Briefly's mother of course called him and lied about most of what was said and he chose to believe his dishonest, bullying, hypocritical mother over me and our daughter.  At that point, I told him plainly and firmly that if he chose to go down that path, even one more step, that he and I were DONE.  He knows I do not bluff.  He backed down but it was not pleasant around my house for a while.  And it really is my house, even though his name is on the title.  The mortgage is mine, I make most of the income and that means I pay the mortgage.  And most of the other expenses.  So I do know exactly what mean.   I don't know what he would do if we did divorce, which is still a possibility.  I would be fine, I can take care of myself.  I have done it before.  I don't think he would want to go back to his mom, but that might be what he would have to do. I'm not actually sure she would let him, anyway.  I'm realizing that I actually do not care what he would have to do. I never wanted to feel like that. I would have preferred to have a happy marriage and I'm sure you feel the same way. We just have to cope with our situations and figure out what is best for us. 

I know how you feel, when you said you have to deal with your own stupidity.  I don't think either of us are stupid. I think we were hopeful and trusting, and maybe we should have made other decision but I know in my case that I have my daughter to show for it and she is worth every second of everything I've had to go through.  I can tell how much you love your children and I know you feel the same way about them.

[Caroline]

On 10/31/2019 at 7:13 AM, Anna T said:

Thank you. To be frank I've given up hoping that, with time and patience and a sprinkle of fairy dust, my husband will suddenly look at me and appreciate just how much I'm trying to give and how hard I'm working. I have waited on this too long and it's not healthy to pin your happiness on something you can in no way control. 

@Briefly I'm so sorry you're going through this situation. If you are quite sure leaving would be in your and your daughter's best interest, you can still do that, it's not too late. But only you can know it of course. These things are so incredibly complicated. 

I have often wondered what makes a person emotionally abusive. My father-in-law is a self-centered abuser with an ugly, unfeeling heart who can nevertheless amp up the charm. He is incredibly articulate and has a high erudition and a great sense of humor. But he can get really nasty and had always treated my mother-in-law, the kindest, sweetest and most generous woman I have ever known, like a piece of worthless trash. I didn't know that before I got married. A friend who had gone through an ugly divorce had warned me: look at the family very carefully. But I think that even if I had dated my husband for years, the FIL would have been cautious around me until I was officially family and he could let his mask fall off. 

My first instance of witnessing his ugly behavior was about a month after my marriage. One of my sisters-in-law was late for a family gathering. He lashed out on her in front of everyone, reducing her to tears. As she sobbed and rushed for the door, she vowed to never set foot in that house again. And she was true to her word. Her children are completely alienated from my father-in-law, and serves him right (I'm only sorry that, by extension, they have no relationship with their grandma either). 

We personally have experienced his narcissistic passive aggressive behavior after my son was born and we refused to name him after my father-in-law (that's a Sephardi custom, but no grandfather I had ever known was foolish enough to ruin the joy of a new grandson because of a self-centered whim). 

Last time my two eldest came back from a visit to their grandparents, they marched up to me and asked the meaning of a certain word. It was a disgusting swear word. Did they pick it up on the street? Nope, they explained that this is how grandpa calls grandma. They didn't understand the exact meaning but they did feel enough tension and anger not to want to come back there too often. Smart girls. Again, I wish I could visit with my mother-in-law separately, but her husband won't let her leave the house to do anything fun. She had never had a friend or a hobby and is mostly out of touch with her family. 

She used to work as a cleaner in a family health center - grueling hard work, but she loved it because it gave her some respite from the relentless emotional abuse. Not money though. She never had access to their bank account. 

I'm giving all of this background because, while it doesn't excuse, it does explain a lot. At the beginning of our marriage my husband expressed his desire NOT to become like his father, but some things are just wired into him. They have had polygamous marriages in their family right up to the generation that came to Israel and both my father-in-law and my husband have expressed numerous times the idea that this is a legitimate family model and a possible solution to late singleness and marriage problems as "women don't tend to complain when each is busy competing for the husband's favor".

So you take such a man and place him in the position of Supreme Overlord whose wife is completely dependent on him and can't even get to the post office if he doesn't drive her. He has SO many opportunities to power over her. If he decides she gets no potatoes from the grocery store, she has to do without. If he decides she won't get to her bank to withdraw her money, she won't have access to her money. If he drives away for several days and takes the kids and leaves her stranded and alone, there is nothing she can do.

You put it all together, and you don't get good things. Because power corrupts, you know? 

I'm so sorry if I sounded so simplistic in my previous comment.  It sounds like a dire and very unhappy situation, and I feel like I may have given you a shallow reply. I'm really not a shallow person   My own mother was married to a man who made her feel inferior and who was unfortunately physically abusive (when he drank, which was  a lot of the time).  He left her and us (four children ages 12 to newborn) and never looked back.  He simply disappeared from our lives and never provided for us financially again. It made my mother strong and forced her to try so many new things.  She found a job and worked her up in a business and felt good about herself and her abilities.  We didn't have a lot of money, but our home was clean and peaceful.  We took care of each other and somehow grew up into competent and content adults.  My mother encouraged us to go to college and do what we wanted to do with our lives before marrying anyone.  These ideas were unusual for mothers of her generation (I'm 61 and my sisters are older; We have a younger brother in his mid 50's)  I received a few degrees and have been happy in the same career for the last 38 years.  My siblings have done the same   My husband and I married later than all of our friends and were lucky enough to have one treasured daughter who is now 22 and in graduate school.  I have so much confidence that she will be strong and self-sufficient if and when she decides to marry.  That is the greatest gift my mother gave us, and I know I've passed it on to my own daughter.   Your situation makes me sad and angry, but confident too.  You are strong like my mom, and no doubt your children know this too.  I'll be thinking of you and believing in your strength to live and thrive in a very difficult situation.  

 

[Threff]

I am so sorry for all of you incredible women who still feel (for whatever and completely understandable reasons) that you have to stay/deal with these awful, abusive men. I would just say that I am sure that I and many others are here if you need support/anyone to talk to. This is one of the best bits of Freejinger. We have been there. We are there for each other.

[Anna T]

On 11/1/2019 at 7:23 PM, AmazonGrace said:

Is he likely to google your blog and find this thread?

Extremely unlikely. I found this thread not through Google, but through my blog referral stats. 

[Anna T]

19 hours ago, Caroline said:

I'm so sorry if I sounded so simplistic in my previous comment.  It sounds like a dire and very unhappy situation, and I feel like I may have given you a shallow reply. I'm really not a shallow person   My own mother was married to a man who made her feel inferior and who was unfortunately physically abusive (when he drank, which was  a lot of the time).  He left her and us (four children ages 12 to newborn) and never looked back.  He simply disappeared from our lives and never provided for us financially again. It made my mother strong and forced her to try so many new things.  She found a job and worked her up in a business and felt good about herself and her abilities.  We didn't have a lot of money, but our home was clean and peaceful.  We took care of each other and somehow grew up into competent and content adults.  My mother encouraged us to go to college and do what we wanted to do with our lives before marrying anyone.  These ideas were unusual for mothers of her generation (I'm 61 and my sisters are older; We have a younger brother in his mid 50's)  I received a few degrees and have been happy in the same career for the last 38 years.  My siblings have done the same   My husband and I married later than all of our friends and were lucky enough to have one treasured daughter who is now 22 and in graduate school.  I have so much confidence that she will be strong and self-sufficient if and when she decides to marry.  That is the greatest gift my mother gave us, and I know I've passed it on to my own daughter.   Your situation makes me sad and angry, but confident too.  You are strong like my mom, and no doubt your children know this too.  I'll be thinking of you and believing in your strength to live and thrive in a very difficult situation.  

 

Your mom sounds like an incredible lady! I'm not sure I'm strong like her. To tell you the truth, most of the time these days I feel more confused and lonely than strong and competent, but I do see some light, which is a huge improvement!!

19 hours ago, Caroline said:

I'm so sorry if I sounded so simplistic in my previous comment.  It sounds like a dire and very unhappy situation, and I feel like I may have given you a shallow reply. I'm really not a shallow person   My own mother was married to a man who made her feel inferior and who was unfortunately physically abusive (when he drank, which was  a lot of the time).  He left her and us (four children ages 12 to newborn) and never looked back.  He simply disappeared from our lives and never provided for us financially again. It made my mother strong and forced her to try so many new things.  She found a job and worked her up in a business and felt good about herself and her abilities.  We didn't have a lot of money, but our home was clean and peaceful.  We took care of each other and somehow grew up into competent and content adults.  My mother encouraged us to go to college and do what we wanted to do with our lives before marrying anyone.  These ideas were unusual for mothers of her generation (I'm 61 and my sisters are older; We have a younger brother in his mid 50's)  I received a few degrees and have been happy in the same career for the last 38 years.  My siblings have done the same   My husband and I married later than all of our friends and were lucky enough to have one treasured daughter who is now 22 and in graduate school.  I have so much confidence that she will be strong and self-sufficient if and when she decides to marry.  That is the greatest gift my mother gave us, and I know I've passed it on to my own daughter.   Your situation makes me sad and angry, but confident too.  You are strong like my mom, and no doubt your children know this too.  I'll be thinking of you and believing in your strength to live and thrive in a very difficult situation.  

 

Thank you. I never thought for a moment of your reply as shallow - perhaps just more optimistic, unfortunately, than I can allow myself to feel. 

20 hours ago, Briefly said:

We have had a similar moment, I was always in charge of the finances because I am very organized and he isn't. But at one point he did tell me that he should be in charge, but he did at least listen when I gave him examples of what had happened in the past when he did try to make the financial decisions.  He was laid off from his job a few years ago and he did try to find another one, but there really isn't anything in his field. We had a part-time side business which he has managed to make into a full-time business, it does bring in some money but not what he made before.  However, we have had to refinance our house so instead of being paid off in about 7 years, we are now looking at 23 more years but at least the payments are affordable.  The mortgage is entirely in my name, due to my being employed.  We had a pretty big blowup a couple of months back over some unforgivable things his mom said to/about our daughter and even though she is an adult, it was a situation where she needed me to help her stand up to a bullying grandmother. Which I did. Mr. Briefly's mother of course called him and lied about most of what was said and he chose to believe his dishonest, bullying, hypocritical mother over me and our daughter.  At that point, I told him plainly and firmly that if he chose to go down that path, even one more step, that he and I were DONE.  He knows I do not bluff.  He backed down but it was not pleasant around my house for a while.  And it really is my house, even though his name is on the title.  The mortgage is mine, I make most of the income and that means I pay the mortgage.  And most of the other expenses.  So I do know exactly what mean.   I don't know what he would do if we did divorce, which is still a possibility.  I would be fine, I can take care of myself.  I have done it before.  I don't think he would want to go back to his mom, but that might be what he would have to do. I'm not actually sure she would let him, anyway.  I'm realizing that I actually do not care what he would have to do. I never wanted to feel like that. I would have preferred to have a happy marriage and I'm sure you feel the same way. We just have to cope with our situations and figure out what is best for us. 

I know how you feel, when you said you have to deal with your own stupidity.  I don't think either of us are stupid. I think we were hopeful and trusting, and maybe we should have made other decision but I know in my case that I have my daughter to show for it and she is worth every second of everything I've had to go through.  I can tell how much you love your children and I know you feel the same way about them.

When do we cross the line from hopeful and trusting to stupid? I just don't know. But it's definitely a kinder way to view ourselves ♥ 

[frumperlicious]

Anna, I just wanted to pop in and say thanks for sharing with us, and you are a strong, amazing woman and mother. I am in the process of leaving my husband after 20 years as a mostly SAHM and it’s terrifying. It would be so much easier to stay and turn a blind eye to things, but I’d be sacrificing my mental health for security and I just can’t do it any more. If people knew the things that had gone on over the years they would no doubt berate me for not leaving earlier, not being strong- but it’s incredibly difficult and I’m finally taking the step. 
 

Congratulations for taking steps to fix your life and family, and know there is no timeline. Change in a marriage is hard, and I hope you and your husband can weather the changes and develop a better marriage on equal footing if that’s what you want. 
 

Im proud of you!

[Briefly]

20 hours ago, Threff said:

I am so sorry for all of you incredible women who still feel (for whatever and completely understandable reasons) that you have to stay/deal with these awful, abusive men. I would just say that I am sure that I and many others are here if you need support/anyone to talk to. This is one of the best bits of Freejinger. We have been there. We are there for each other.

I'm not sure exactly if I consider Mr. Briefly to be emotionally abusive now.  He probably was, during our fundy attempt. But I don't put up with anything now that I put up with during that time (if my wording makes sense).  I don't think I'm in denial about it now, although I probably was during that time. I definitely would not put up with any physical abuse, but I honestly don't think he would do anything like that.  He can be a jerk, but that is something I have never worried about.  The people on FJ are wonderful, by the way.  It's mainly financial, the reason we are still together.  And we are getting along better now than we were this summer, it was especially rough during the issue with his mother.  However, he is going to her house for Thanksgiving and I am going to spend the week with my sister.  I have no idea if she (his mother) will try to interfere or not, I would not be surprised if she does say something to him.  But I really think that he is beginning to see what/how she is and I also think he knows it is in his best interest to stay on my good side. I'm the one holding most of the cards, after all.

[AmazonGrace]

5 hours ago, Anna T said:

Extremely unlikely. I found this thread not through Google, but through my blog referral stats. 

I thought you started this thread? 

[Anna T]

3 hours ago, frumperlicious said:

If people knew the things that had gone on over the years they would no doubt berate me for not leaving earlier, not being strong- but it’s incredibly difficult and I’m finally taking the step. 

This 100%.

It's literally making me want to tear my hair out when I think how the shame of not holding it all together prevents us from connecting with people who are going through the same thing and could cheer on us on our way out of hell. I pray you are out soon, safe and sound, because if he hadn't changed in two decades he sure as heck won't. Ever. 

1 minute ago, AmazonGrace said:

I thought you started this thread? 

I mean this forum ? ? But my husband doesn't usually read or do Google searches in English so I'd say I'm pretty safe. 

[Anna T]

3 hours ago, Briefly said:

I'm not sure exactly if I consider Mr. Briefly to be emotionally abusive now.  He probably was, during our fundy attempt. But I don't put up with anything now that I put up with during that time (if my wording makes sense).

I also think he knows it is in his best interest to stay on my good side. I'm the one holding most of the cards, after all.

I would hate to upset you, but to me, this sounds like saying, "he is not an alcoholic now because I have locked up the liquor cabinet".

If you're lucky, you might live out the rest of your life in peace. But who knows what happens if he ever breaks the lock??  

It's impossible to ever feel safe with such a person. It's like arm-wrestling when you know you ALWAYS need to keep your opponent's hand pinned to the table because otherwise they will raise it and strike you. You can never relax.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter. I guess it's because I am. There are many reasons to continue in a marriage, as you know, and not all of them have to do with affection and companionship!! I just hate abusive bullies who deflate while they're waiting at the principal's office while figuring out new, insidious ways to dish it out to their victims. 

[Briefly]

20 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

I thought you started this thread? 

I think she meant Freejinger itself and that we were discussing her again, which was a thread that I started.  Not this thread itself.

20 hours ago, Anna T said:

I would hate to upset you, but to me, this sounds like saying, "he is not an alcoholic now because I have locked up the liquor cabinet".

If you're lucky, you might live out the rest of your life in peace. But who knows what happens if he ever breaks the lock??  

It's impossible to ever feel safe with such a person. It's like arm-wrestling when you know you ALWAYS need to keep your opponent's hand pinned to the table because otherwise they will raise it and strike you. You can never relax.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter. I guess it's because I am. There are many reasons to continue in a marriage, as you know, and not all of them have to do with affection and companionship!! I just hate abusive bullies who deflate while they're waiting at the principal's office while figuring out new, insidious ways to dish it out to their victims. 

I know what you mean and I am not upset with you.  He probably was verbally abusive for a while, But I stood up to him about it at the time, which does not excuse it, I know.  I went shopping with my daughter today, and brought this up with her. We had a long talk over lunch. She gave me a few things to think about.  She gave me a few examples of things she remembers and I think I have a lot to think about.  But the fact remains that from a financial standpoint, there is not a lot of options.  However, if I ever decide that I do need to make a change then I will figure it out. 

[AuntCloud]

Oh Anna. Eved ki imloch jumped right at me (when a slave becomes ruler... it doesn’t bode well).

Do you have a good strong group of real life girlfriends?

[Anna T]

6 hours ago, Briefly said:

But the fact remains that from a financial standpoint, there is not a lot of options.  However, if I ever decide that I do need to make a change then I will figure it out. 

I completely understand. I'm not exactly stuffing my hubs's stuff in a suitcase and throwing it out of the window yet either. I am enjoying the relative peace and quiet of circumstances that have vastly improved in my favor. However, I am under no illusion this constitutes real change on his part. Real change is internal and deeply rooted. He has expressed no understanding, remorse, or desire to change. Which leads me to think that at the first chance, he'd try to get me under his thumb again. 

Why anyone would expend the mental energy necessary for subduing and controlling one's spouse, instead of moving together with them in life like an adult partner with mutual responsibilities, is beyond me. It just doesn't seem to make sense. But I guess abusive minds work in twisted ways.

5 hours ago, AuntCloud said:

Oh Anna. Eved ki imloch jumped right at me (when a slave becomes ruler... it doesn’t bode well).

Do you have a good strong group of real life girlfriends?

I have a couple of friends who are worth their weight in gold and know some, but not all, of what goes on here. I believe the friend who had once warned me to look at the family suspects, though. She visited not long ago and hubs kept hurling orders like I'm a slave while she was here: "Go and wash the dishes! When are you going to clean the bedroom?"... I wanted to perish on the spot but avoided an ugly confrontation. Then we took all the kids and went on a hike. A long hike. At midday in August. It was more comfortable than staying in this house. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Anna T

[Anna T]

I have just reread this thread because I was having a low moment and felt like I needed a pick-me-up. I was blown away once again by all the comments and support!

Today, I have unearthed a popular book, by a very well-known Orthodox rabbi, written for women and meaning to serve as something like a general guide to everything from spiritual growth, marriage, raising children, finances, and more. 

I have clung to this book as if to a lifeline for years, and there are some bits of advice that could probably be useful to women in marriages that can be defined as problematic but not abusive. But now I'm looking at it with new eyes, and I see three threads running through the book which are EXTREMELY problematic for women in emotionally abusive relationships: 

1. The book asserts time and time again that it is not good for women to have deep and meaningful relationships with other women. Why? Because "your husband is supposed to be your only friend" and because of the "unhealthy comparisons" that arise when women are discussing their marriages. He actually goes as far as to say explicitly that when a woman tells about how wonderful her husband is, she puts bitterness and resentment into the heart of her friend, who "has been accepting her husband's angry behavior with love" and now won't put up with it anymore! 

Crucial step to abuse: isolate the victim. This is especially destructive if the victim didn't get to see a model of a good marriage while growing up. She has no way to compare. 

2. Any suffering in marriage is claimed to be part of one's "tikkun" (essentially, one's spiritual growth intended to correct one's flaws) and "deserved for one's sins". Ergo: we get glorification and spiritualization of suffering. I wonder how this would apply to being sick or broke. Are we not supposed to go to the doctor or look for a job? 

3. There's this principle which essentially states that we deserve a certain amount of suffering, and if it manifests in marriage and the woman gets divorced, the suffering will just transfer into other areas of her life (like liquid in joined vessels). And it will be worse for daring to kick back! He gives all kinds of awful examples, like women who got divorced but then got through hell raising their children on their own. So: deterministic thinking intended to make the victim despair of ever actually ending the suffering. 

Bottom line:

- Keep victim isolated 

- Assure her that she is suffering "for the glory of God" 

- Drill into her head that there's no actual escape

What a perfect recipe for perpetuating abusive patterns. I have no idea why it took me so long to see this. I feel so betrayed on part of myself and who knows how many other women who have fallen prey to this philosophy. 

[Jasmar]

Much love to you, Anna. I divorced my (mostly emotionally) abusive husband a few years ago, after 20 years of marriage. I can tell you from personal experience, Evangelical Christianity’s messaging to abused women is just as bad as what you’ve shared. So I really get where you’re coming from.

It sounds like you’re on a great path, and doing very well with the crazy upheaval that comes when we wake up from the lies and abuse we’ve been living with. If you’re interested, I highly recommend a book called “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. He lays out a bunch of different styles of control and abuse that (mostly) men use to keep their partners off-balance and stuck in the relationship. For me, it was really helpful to see those patterns laid out in black and white, so I could identify exactly the ways I’d been played. My two teen daughters read it too, and felt the same way.

[JermajestyDuggar]

26 minutes ago, Anna T said:

What a perfect recipe for perpetuating abusive patterns. I have no idea why it took me so long to see this. 

I personally think that these types of books are very good at twisting things. They make it so enticing to live this godly way. Don’t feel bad that it took you as long as it did. You got here! It would probably take me a hard and heavy 90 minutes to do a 5K while others could do it in an easy 40 minutes. But we both got to the finish line, right? 

[Anna T]

27 minutes ago, Jasmar said:

Much love to you, Anna. I divorced my (mostly emotionally) abusive husband a few years ago, after 20 years of marriage. I can tell you from personal experience, Evangelical Christianity’s messaging to abused women is just as bad as what you’ve shared. So I really get where you’re coming from.

It sounds like you’re on a great path, and doing very well with the crazy upheaval that comes when we wake up from the lies and abuse we’ve been living with. If you’re interested, I highly recommend a book called “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. He lays out a bunch of different styles of control and abuse that (mostly) men use to keep their partners off-balance and stuck in the relationship. For me, it was really helpful to see those patterns laid out in black and white, so I could identify exactly the ways I’d been played. My two teen daughters read it too, and felt the same way.

That book is on my recommendation list! I definitely plan to read it. 

18 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I personally think that these types of books are very good at twisting things. They make it so enticing to live this godly way. Don’t feel bad that it took you as long as it did. You got here! It would probably take me a hard and heavy 90 minutes to do a 5K while others could do it in an easy 40 minutes. But we both got to the finish line, right? 

Twisting is the very word. I wonder if the author deliberately sets to re-abuse women or just doesn't believe that emotional abuse is a thing per se. 

[Caroline]

7 hours ago, Anna T said:

I have just reread this thread because I was having a low moment and felt like I needed a pick-me-up. I was blown away once again by all the comments and support!

Today, I have unearthed a popular book, by a very well-known Orthodox rabbi, written for women and meaning to serve as something like a general guide to everything from spiritual growth, marriage, raising children, finances, and more. 

I have clung to this book as if to a lifeline for years, and there are some bits of advice that could probably be useful to women in marriages that can be defined as problematic but not abusive. But now I'm looking at it with new eyes, and I see three threads running through the book which are EXTREMELY problematic for women in emotionally abusive relationships: 

1. The book asserts time and time again that it is not good for women to have deep and meaningful relationships with other women. Why? Because "your husband is supposed to be your only friend" and because of the "unhealthy comparisons" that arise when women are discussing their marriages. He actually goes as far as to say explicitly that when a woman tells about how wonderful her husband is, she puts bitterness and resentment into the heart of her friend, who "has been accepting her husband's angry behavior with love" and now won't put up with it anymore! 

Crucial step to abuse: isolate the victim. This is especially destructive if the victim didn't get to see a model of a good marriage while growing up. She has no way to compare. 

2. Any suffering in marriage is claimed to be part of one's "tikkun" (essentially, one's spiritual growth intended to correct one's flaws) and "deserved for one's sins". Ergo: we get glorification and spiritualization of suffering. I wonder how this would apply to being sick or broke. Are we not supposed to go to the doctor or look for a job? 

3. There's this principle which essentially states that we deserve a certain amount of suffering, and if it manifests in marriage and the woman gets divorced, the suffering will just transfer into other areas of her life (like liquid in joined vessels). And it will be worse for daring to kick back! He gives all kinds of awful examples, like women who got divorced but then got through hell raising their children on their own. So: deterministic thinking intended to make the victim despair of ever actually ending the suffering. 

Bottom line:

- Keep victim isolated 

- Assure her that she is suffering "for the glory of God" 

- Drill into her head that there's no actual escape

What a perfect recipe for perpetuating abusive patterns. I have no idea why it took me so long to see this. I feel so betrayed on part of myself and who knows how many other women who have fallen prey to this philosophy. 

Anna:

I am not a religious person, but was raised in a Catholic home in the 60's.  I didn't know many people who weren't Catholic or run-of-the-mill Protestants (not Evangelical Christians).  Cultural religion mattered to most of us, but we were not raised to conform to only what men wanted.  Most of us were brought up to know that getting a good education was the key to living a better life, and most of us (girls and boys) imagined having careers some day.

My best friend was an Evangelical Christian, and became involved with a very controlling church when she was at a very low point in her life.  When we were both in our early 30's she was married with two children and I was still single, working in a career I enjoyed, traveling a lot, and living on my own.  Once when we were alone together she told me how unhappy she had been (controlling  uber-religious husband, controlling church community, young children who were solely her responsibility), but she was trying to change her attitude by taking a course at church called "Your Amazing Womanhood".  I didn't know anything about what she was being told at church, but I definitely was concerned about the 'course' she was taking.  Her husband was killed in an accident a few years later, and it turned out he had been cheating on her and actually had another child!  What a sham her marriage had been.  That's when she started to realize she had been sold a bill of goods.   Sadly, she died nine years ago of cancer.  I'm only telling this story, because it took an extreme situation for my friend to realize what she (in good conscience) had believed in for all the years of her marriage.  You should not blame yourself for any aspect of your unfortunate situation.  

Continued good luck trying to understand your new reality.  (I am absolutely not implying your husband would ever do what my friend's husband did.  Just giving an extreme example.)

[thoughtful]

9 hours ago, Jasmar said:

I highly recommend a book called “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft.

I second this recommendation.

[Anna T]

3 hours ago, Caroline said:

Anna:

I am not a religious person, but was raised in a Catholic home in the 60's.  I didn't know many people who weren't Catholic or run-of-the-mill Protestants (not Evangelical Christians).  Cultural religion mattered to most of us, but we were not raised to conform to only what men wanted.  Most of us were brought up to know that getting a good education was the key to living a better life, and most of us (girls and boys) imagined having careers some day.

My best friend was an Evangelical Christian, and became involved with a very controlling church when she was at a very low point in her life.  When we were both in our early 30's she was married with two children and I was still single, working in a career I enjoyed, traveling a lot, and living on my own.  Once when we were alone together she told me how unhappy she had been (controlling  uber-religious husband, controlling church community, young children who were solely her responsibility), but she was trying to change her attitude by taking a course at church called "Your Amazing Womanhood".  I didn't know anything about what she was being told at church, but I definitely was concerned about the 'course' she was taking.  Her husband was killed in an accident a few years later, and it turned out he had been cheating on her and actually had another child!  What a sham her marriage had been.  That's when she started to realize she had been sold a bill of goods.   Sadly, she died nine years ago of cancer.  I'm only telling this story, because it took an extreme situation for my friend to realize what she (in good conscience) had believed in for all the years of her marriage.  You should not blame yourself for any aspect of your unfortunate situation.  

Continued good luck trying to understand your new reality.  (I am absolutely not implying your husband would ever do what my friend's husband did.  Just giving an extreme example.)

What a sad story. I hope that at least your friend got to enjoy a few years of freedom from her controlling husband. 

I will say this for Orthodox Judaism: I believe that compared to Evangelical Christianity, there's less ramming of male supreme authority down female throats. But there's also lack of organized support for Orthodox women who have been the victims of emotional or spiritual abuse. I have been searching high and low and only now have been able to find some sources that definitely don't get enough publicity. 

1 hour ago, thoughtful said:

I second this recommendation.

I have started reading it last night!