Some things that had taken me too long to understand

[Anna T]

https://domesticfelicityblog.com/2019/10/30/helpmate-vs-enabler-discerning-the-difference/

I believe this might be the first time in this forum's history that an object of snark goes ahead and starts a thread about themselves ? 

[Soulhuntress]

3 minutes ago, Anna T said:

https://domesticfelicityblog.com/2019/10/30/helpmate-vs-enabler-discerning-the-difference/

I believe this might be the first time in this forum's history that an object of snark goes ahead and starts a thread about themselves ? 

Some of our favorite fundies are exactly what she said not to be or to do.  ?

[Howl]

I noticed at the end she says 

Quote

And what our entire family needed was for me to be more proactive about earning money and handling finances.

But that money-earning was done from home, right? When she's already homeschooling, keeping house, cooking and gardening. 

I'm glad she has some insight on partnership vs. patriarchy.  

[grantedgrant]

26 minutes ago, Anna T said:

I believe this might be the first time in this forum's history that an object of snark goes ahead and starts a thread about themselves ? 

Not really, though, right?

 

But insight and growth is always good, so yeah, good for you.

Edited October 30, 2019 by grantedgrant
My thoughts and fingers do not always play well together.

[Anna T]

21 minutes ago, Howl said:

I noticed at the end she says 

But that money-earning was done from home, right? When she's already homeschooling, keeping house, cooking and gardening. 

I'm glad she has some insight on partnership vs. patriarchy.  

Hey, I wrote this, posted this, and am reading the reply. You don't have to use third person ? 

And yes. I don't work full-time. I have had the great good luck to find a flexible position from home, and am equally fortunate to be able to live rent free in a house that belongs to my mom so that I only pay for the utilities. It has been a soft landing. 

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, Anna T said:

believe this might be the first time in this forum's history that an object of snark goes ahead and starts a thread about themselves ? 

No, sorry.  You certainly aren't the only person we have discussed who has come here to talk to us or set us straight.  Nor are you the only one to start a thread about themselves.  

Of course, those new members and subjects of our discussion do fall into various categories.  The categories include, but aren't limited to, the: "thanks for getting it right", "thanks for making me think", "this is what you misunderstood" or, at the very bottom of the heap, "you are all going to Hell!!!!!!" categories.  

@Anna T, it sounds as though you have made a lot of changes.  If it isn't too personal a question, is your husband on board with all of this? Or is he finding it hard to adjust to the new responsible and not-enabling you?  Is it perhaps actually a relief to him that you have stepped up to the task of weighing down your end of the seesaw? (I like that analogy.)

2 hours ago, Soulhuntress said:

Some of our favorite fundies are exactly what she said not to be or to do.  ?

And how!  This bit:

Quote

Being a good helpmate does not always mean going the route of minimizing conflict. It does not mean complying with laziness, rudeness, disrespect, irresponsibility, or passive aggressive behavior.

Teri Maxwell (and the Maxwells in general) absolutely want utter submission to the misguided Patriarch, and no conflict or questioning of his judgement at all.  There is nothing like the passive aggression of Teri refusing to remind Steve to bring home pizza for dinner, or telling wives not to tell their husbands they have made a wrong turn so they drive for miles in the wrong direction.  

Edited October 30, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Anna T]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

 

@Anna T it sounds as though you have made a lot of changes.  If it isn't too personal a question, is your husband on board with all of this? Or is he finding it hard to adjust to the new responsible and not-enabling you?  Is it perhaps actually a relief to him that you have stepped up to the task of weighing down your end of the seesaw? (I like that analogy.)

Unfortunately, my husband is still pretty much stubbornly refusing to admit that there had ever been a problem in the first place. As far as he is concerned, I have no right to complain as long as there's food on the table. He says I should trust his financial decisions (which included not just irregular employment over the years, but putting huge sums of money into illegal ventures, and lending money to people who had never returned it, all without my knowledge. It was mind boggling to me when I found out. He grudgingly admitted he might have misjudged but still claims it's none of my business).

When I first accepted my current job in January, I was under enormous pressure from him, first, to quit, and when that failed, to make arrangements for my salary to be direct deposited into a bank account in his name only (we have always kept separate accounts, but mine hadn't been very active until last year). There was lots of emotional aggression and Bible thumping to make it happen. I refused; he had had 100% control over all our finances for a decade. When I had worked before, my salary was direct deposited into his account and I never saw that money. I trusted him, and earned myself anxiety, depression, and PTSD. It was time to trust myself for a change. I knew my money would be safer in my hands.

Now he has lapsed into just treating my job as some silly little thing I do for no reason while I had better spend my time dusting. But you can bet that when the bills come, he passes them right to me to pay. 

Does it suck? Yeah, big time. But it isn't about him or me or this whole crazy power-over thing. I'm not working my tail off to get his appreciation. I have children to raise, and I fervently hope I can keep us fed and help them grow up to be responsible, competent, accountable, and upright human beings. 

[Palimpsest]

12 minutes ago, Anna T said:

Does it suck? Yeah, big time. But it isn't about him or me or this whole crazy power-over thing. I'm not working my tail off to get his appreciation. I have children to raise, and I fervently hope I can keep us fed and help them grow up to be responsible, competent, accountable, and upright human beings. 

Yes, the children are absolutely the priority.  However, you need to take care of yourself too in order to raise them properly.

I'm so very sorry.  I'm sure you know that this is not a good marriage, in any way, shape, or form.  And in my opinion it will not get any better.  I hope you are getting a lot of support from family and friends, and have access to good therapy, because this is incredibly hard.

[Anna T]

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Yes, the children are absolutely the priority.  However, you need to take care of yourself too in order to raise them properly.

I'm so very sorry.  I'm sure you know that this is not a good marriage, in any way, shape, or form.  And in my opinion it will not get any better.  I hope you are getting a lot of support from family and friends, and have access to good therapy, because this is incredibly hard.

You are right. I can't give my kids peace of mind, wholeness, and self respect if I don't have any of these things. I'm doing my best to get support and, to begin with, educate myself and call a duck a duck. This in itself has been a huge challenge because when you live in a warped reality for so long, you move in a kind of brain fog that makes it extremely difficult to see straight. 

[sableduck]

1 hour ago, Anna T said:

You are right. I can't give my kids peace of mind, wholeness, and self respect if I don't have any of these things. I'm doing my best to get support and, to begin with, educate myself and call a duck a duck. This in itself has been a huge challenge because when you live in a warped reality for so long, you move in a kind of brain fog that makes it extremely difficult to see straight. 

I’m sorry. I know this is all hard and you’re trying to do the right thing through the brain fog.

for whatever it’s worth, I’m out here rooting(and praying) for you.

[VVV]

Someone linked this website on another thread; if you can overlook the overtly Christian content (there is a lot, sorry, but the comments on the various articles are as worth reading as the articles themselves), you may find it helpful. https://flyingfreenow.com/

I wish you all the best.

[Anna T]

7 minutes ago, VVV said:

Someone linked this website on another thread

I think it was me ☺ 

9 minutes ago, sableduck said:

I’m sorry. I know this is all hard and you’re trying to do the right thing through the brain fog.

for whatever it’s worth, I’m out here rooting(and praying) for you.

Thank you. It means a lot. ♥ 

[Koala]

I haven't followed your threads before, but your situation sounds really hard, so I just wanted to wish you all the best.  

Be kind to your children, and be kind to yourself.  And good for you for keeping control of the money you earn!  It sounds as if he has done nothing to earn your trust.  

[Palimpsest]

37 minutes ago, Anna T said:

I think it was me ☺ 

It was definitely you.

I'm glad you found that site and find it helpful, but it bothers me a bit that you have to look at Fundie Christian sites to find people who speak to your situation.  I have a general feeling that Domestic Violence (yes, emotional and spiritual abuse fall under DV) research and services are not readily available in Israel.  The first study on DV wasn't conducted there until 2004 and that seems to have focused on recent immigrants.  

Holding you in my thoughts, and hoping you can continue to progress out of the brain-fog.  And you are right about that brain-fog, but slowly and surely you can and will  make your way out.  It takes time. ❤️

 

 

 

[elliha]

Trust yourself and be kind to yourself. God is always there to help even if times are tough.

[Soulhuntress]

Naamat a resource in Israel.

[Anna T]

42 minutes ago, Soulhuntress said:

Naamat a resource in Israel.

Naamat provides shelters for battered women. Thankfully, I'm in no need for that. 

[Palimpsest]

53 minutes ago, elliha said:

Trust yourself and be kind to yourself. God is always there to help even if times are tough.

That is terribly sweet.  But I think you may need to wake up and sniff some coffee.  God takes vacation days when it comes to domestic violence.

@Anna T has only described emotional and spiritual abuse so far, and physical abuse seems absent.  Thanks be to Rufus, her husband seems more out to lunch and fiscally irresponsible than physically violent.  But he is into the Patriarchy.

It is only fair to warn her (although I think she already knows) that abuse escalates as victims (future survivors) slowly come out of the brain fog and take a stand.  @Anna T may have already experienced this.

@Anna T is at a cross road.  Can Patriarchal husband deal with the new Anna or not?  Can he step up and get with the program? 

Can she, or should she, leave?  Note, I am not telling her to leave because only Anna can figure that out, and assess the risks versus benefits for herself and her children.  She knows her husband.  She needs to explore her options.  She needs to decide for herself.  And she needs time and support.

Sorry, but I've seen one too many women trying to escape domestic violence gunned down on the courthouse steps to trust that "God is always there to help" crap.

Mileage may of course vary and Anna may not think it pertains to her situation. 

But this needed to be out there.  As a reality check.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Palimpsest

[Anna T]

2 hours ago, Koala said:

I haven't followed your threads before, but your situation sounds really hard, so I just wanted to wish you all the best.  

Be kind to your children, and be kind to yourself.  And good for you for keeping control of the money you earn!  It sounds as if he has done nothing to earn your trust.  

Thank you. The very fact that I am now able to verbalize some of the things I am going through is a huge relief. 

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

It was definitely you.

I'm glad you found that site and find it helpful, but it bothers me a bit that you have to look at Fundie Christian sites to find people who speak to your situation.  I have a general feeling that Domestic Violence (yes, emotional and spiritual abuse fall under DV) research and services are not readily available in Israel.  The first study on DV wasn't conducted there until 2004 and that seems to have focused on recent immigrants.  

Holding you in my thoughts, and hoping you can continue to progress out of the brain-fog.  And you are right about that brain-fog, but slowly and surely you can and will  make your way out.  It takes time. ❤️

 

 

 

You are right. There is a high awareness of physical/verbal abuse in Israel, but the dialogue on emotional, spiritual and financial abuse is still in its diapers. Not that people don't know that such things take place, but there's a lack of organized support. 

8 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

That is terribly sweet.  But I think you may need to wake up and sniff some coffee.  God takes vacation days when it comes to domestic violence.

@Anna T has only described emotional and spiritual abuse so far, and physical abuse seems absent.  Thanks be to Rufus, her husband seems more out to lunch and fiscally irresponsible than physically violent.  But he is into the Patriarchy.

It is only fair to warn her (although I think she already knows) that abuse escalates as victims (future survivors) slowly come out of the brain fog and take a stand.  @Anna T may have already experienced this.

@Anna T is at a cross road.  Can Patriarchal husband deal with the new Anna or not?  Can he step up and get with the program? 

Can she, or should she, leave?  Note, I am not telling her to leave because only Anna can figure that out, and assess the risks versus benefits for herself and her children.  She knows her husband.  She needs to explore her options.  She needs to decide for herself.  And she needs time and support.

Sorry but I've seen one too many women trying to escape domestic violence gunned down on the courthouse steps to trust that "God is always there to help" crap.

Mileage may of course vary and Anna may not think it pertains to her situation. 

But this needed to be out there.  As a reality check.

 

 

I don't think that "God is always there" should be taken as an inducement to give up and take any sort of crap lying down. God is there helping people heal and take care of themselves. 

[elliha]

47 minutes ago, Anna T said:

I don't think that "God is always there" should be taken as an inducement to give up and take any sort of crap lying down. God is there helping people heal and take care of themselves. 

Definitely not a reason to give up or just sit and wait. Humans have great powers to change and act. A trust that God is present even in hard times is what gets many people through tough situations. Do what you are able to do, take help from other people, educate yourself and pray whenever you feel it is needed. Don't be afraid to discuss things over and over whether with people or with God, new things often emerge when an issue is revisited. I believe in your power to handle life and your situation. If any professional help is available, consider using it. 

[Caroline]

Anna:

You seem like such an intelligent, creative, and ethical person.  It's so disappointing when the people who are supposed to love us the most and accept us without condition don't appreciate our individual needs and talents.

You don't seem like someone who gives up easily especially where children are involved, and I'm hopeful that your husband will one day appreciate how special you are.  It sounds like he has demons of his own to work out.  Fortunately, you'reboth young, and there's time.  Amazing things happen the older we get.  

Wishing you peace and success -

Edited October 31, 2019 by Caroline
word choice could have been better

[Briefly]

I read your latest blog post. In many ways, it mirrors our very brief foray into fundamentalism except that I have always been in control of our finances because Mr. Briefly just is not good at budgeting.  We only tried it for a few years, but they were years of hell from the first second.  Realizing that I had made the worse mistake of my/our life when I first suggested it (as a desperate save the marriage move) and then speaking up about it was the start of a very bad period.  Mr. Briefly's version of biblical living was basically straight out of the patriarchy playbook.  It was not what I intended but I really had no idea what I/we were trying to do and I will always regret it.  We are basically just two people in the same house now and his relationship with our daughter is pretty much non-existent.  I see so many parallels in what you spoke about in your latest entry. But I think you may be in a worse emotional spot.  I hope that things work out for you and your family. It may be very hard for your husband to ever admit that he has made mistakes or that things should have been different.  I hope that he is able to take that step, but if he doesn't - can you live in that situation?  It's tough.  Mr. Briefly is much better than he was during our attempt, but he still would prefer to be the boss and I think he would be very happy if I would agree to go back to that lifestyle.  Which will NEVER happen.  It was not worth the damage it did to me, us, our relationship or our daughter.  Things are pretty much completely opposite now, his job evaporated and I am the breadwinner.  The mortgage has been in my name since we refinanced a few years ago.  I find myself making most of the decisions and I think I make better ones than Mr. Briefly did.  Some of that may be because of the type of personality I have, I am extremely organized.  I think you are, too and I think you are very strong.

I didn't necessarily consider that I was emotionally abused although I can see that it some ways it was emotional abuse and the patriarchal system is basically set up for that.  I don't have any fear of physical abuse and never have.  I am not saying you were or will be physically abused.  But emotional abuse can be very damaging, too.  It can be insidious and very hard to realize that it is happening.

I want you to be able to be safe and also to keep your children safe.  The strongest regret I have is that I did not take our daughter and leave, when I wanted to.  Please don't think I am telling you to leave, I just hope that you are able to see what you need to do - whatever it is, and do what you have to for your own self-preservation and for your children's.

I'm sure it wasn't easy for you to post that. But I am glad that you did.

[MamaJunebug]

Add me to the list of those pullin’ for you.

i was there. It blew chunks and I got out. You will prevail, just don’t give in to his cockamamie ideas. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Arrrrrgghhhh!!!!  

Sorry, that’s all I’ve got.

[Anna T]

10 hours ago, Caroline said:

Anna:

You seem like such an intelligent, creative, and ethical person.  It's so disappointing when the people who are supposed to love us the most and accept us without condition don't appreciate our individual needs and talents.

You don't seem like someone who gives up easily especially where children are involved, and I'm hopeful that your husband will one day appreciate how special you are.  It sounds like he has demons of his own to work out.  Fortunately, you'reboth young, and there's time.  Amazing things happen the older we get.  

Wishing you peace and success -

Thank you. To be frank I've given up hoping that, with time and patience and a sprinkle of fairy dust, my husband will suddenly look at me and appreciate just how much I'm trying to give and how hard I'm working. I have waited on this too long and it's not healthy to pin your happiness on something you can in no way control. 

@Briefly I'm so sorry you're going through this situation. If you are quite sure leaving would be in your and your daughter's best interest, you can still do that, it's not too late. But only you can know it of course. These things are so incredibly complicated. 

I have often wondered what makes a person emotionally abusive. My father-in-law is a self-centered abuser with an ugly, unfeeling heart who can nevertheless amp up the charm. He is incredibly articulate and has a high erudition and a great sense of humor. But he can get really nasty and had always treated my mother-in-law, the kindest, sweetest and most generous woman I have ever known, like a piece of worthless trash. I didn't know that before I got married. A friend who had gone through an ugly divorce had warned me: look at the family very carefully. But I think that even if I had dated my husband for years, the FIL would have been cautious around me until I was officially family and he could let his mask fall off. 

My first instance of witnessing his ugly behavior was about a month after my marriage. One of my sisters-in-law was late for a family gathering. He lashed out on her in front of everyone, reducing her to tears. As she sobbed and rushed for the door, she vowed to never set foot in that house again. And she was true to her word. Her children are completely alienated from my father-in-law, and serves him right (I'm only sorry that, by extension, they have no relationship with their grandma either). 

We personally have experienced his narcissistic passive aggressive behavior after my son was born and we refused to name him after my father-in-law (that's a Sephardi custom, but no grandfather I had ever known was foolish enough to ruin the joy of a new grandson because of a self-centered whim). 

Last time my two eldest came back from a visit to their grandparents, they marched up to me and asked the meaning of a certain word. It was a disgusting swear word. Did they pick it up on the street? Nope, they explained that this is how grandpa calls grandma. They didn't understand the exact meaning but they did feel enough tension and anger not to want to come back there too often. Smart girls. Again, I wish I could visit with my mother-in-law separately, but her husband won't let her leave the house to do anything fun. She had never had a friend or a hobby and is mostly out of touch with her family. 

She used to work as a cleaner in a family health center - grueling hard work, but she loved it because it gave her some respite from the relentless emotional abuse. Not money though. She never had access to their bank account. 

I'm giving all of this background because, while it doesn't excuse, it does explain a lot. At the beginning of our marriage my husband expressed his desire NOT to become like his father, but some things are just wired into him. They have had polygamous marriages in their family right up to the generation that came to Israel and both my father-in-law and my husband have expressed numerous times the idea that this is a legitimate family model and a possible solution to late singleness and marriage problems as "women don't tend to complain when each is busy competing for the husband's favor".

So you take such a man and place him in the position of Supreme Overlord whose wife is completely dependent on him and can't even get to the post office if he doesn't drive her. He has SO many opportunities to power over her. If he decides she gets no potatoes from the grocery store, she has to do without. If he decides she won't get to her bank to withdraw her money, she won't have access to her money. If he drives away for several days and takes the kids and leaves her stranded and alone, there is nothing she can do.

You put it all together, and you don't get good things. Because power corrupts, you know?