Joy & Austin 27 - Joy and Austin lost baby Annabell, TRIGGER WARNING miscarriage and stillbirth

[SilverBeach]

6 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The term miscarriage is dismissive.

No it isn't. That's your opinion and in your mind. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by SilverBeach
I'm done.

[SassyPants]

5 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

It’s important to me because I’ve been part of the baby loss world for ten years. I’ve seen the affect on mom’s whose losses have been disrespected and dismissed. The term miscarriage is dismissive. Babies delivered without a heartbeat at or after 20 weeks are stillborn. I don’t understand why this simple fact can’t be respected and uses appropriately. 

This is not about you or your albeit it horrible, losses. Please stop crapping all over a very respectful thread. Thank you.

[Beermeet]

Um, shit. I'm unaware or becoming aware of a issue here. I responded to one post. Haven't read much beforeor after. I stand by what I said though.  I'm feeling some shot with this, not interested in the drama. Sorry if I somehow am! I didn't mean to be part of "a thing"!

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

I am going to go out on a long limb here, but based on their religious beliefs and their ideas with regards to birth control, this experience will be viewed within the lenses of a struggle, placed by God and a promise of rejoining, for eternity, in heaven. Most of us plan and prepare for a very limited number if children, due to various reasons. While I am sure they are heartbroken and beyond sad at this turn of events, for all that we know there will be nothing stopping them from conceiving again quite readily. They just approach life, death, living and family planning much differently than most. I can’t believe several of her sisters have continued to post happy photos of their children and babies on IG ( including today)this past week. Most of us would  have shut that down for a spell.

oh I'm sure we'll hear and announcement from them before next July. because you are right that none of this is going to give them pause in having as many babies as they think God gives them but just thinking about that really makes me fear for Joy's health. Gideon isn't yet two. she had a hard labor and c-section.  now she's just had a 20 week loss  all the while grieving her grandma and all her sisters/sisters in law are having girls. plus Amy is pregnant and well she might post on a happy smile just the thought of all that scares me.for her sake especially since we know she will push her body to get pregnant again soon. 

[DarkAnts]

13 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

It’s important to me because I’ve been part of the baby loss world for ten years. I’ve seen the affect on mom’s whose losses have been disrespected and dismissed. The term miscarriage is dismissive. Babies delivered without a heartbeat at or after 20 weeks are stillborn. I don’t understand why this simple fact can’t be respected and uses appropriately. 

This is Joy's loss. I will let her use the term she wants to use. In this case, she is not trying politicize it. To her this was a baby and a still birth. I have a friend who is pro choice who lost a baby before what you consider it to be still birth age. To her, it was her baby. To us her friends it was her baby. It was wanted. There was an emotional attachment. The was tru for Joy and Austin. I think it was more so because for them, life begins at conception (soul enters the body). 

Edited July 4, 2019 by DarkAnts

[PainfullyAware]

Honestly I never knew stillborn meant any earlier than death after labour, full term. I'm glad I've learned that so I can be more sensitive in the future. 

Personally, I'm going with my country's definition at 28 weeks, in general. If I'm somehow ever in a conversation where someone tells me they find that offensive for them, based on their loss, then I will adjust my language. If I knew someone had a loss, especially around this gray area of time 20-28 weeks, I would just refer to it as a loss. 

I believe virtually everyone here has been made aware that a later loss, however defined, is deeply devastating and so much more than a formless mass of cells.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

13 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

It’s important to me because I’ve been part of the baby loss world for ten years. I’ve seen the affect on mom’s whose losses have been disrespected and dismissed. The term miscarriage is dismissive. Babies delivered without a heartbeat at or after 20 weeks are stillborn. I don’t understand why this simple fact can’t be respected and uses appropriately. 

This is disrespectful and hurts those of us who "just miscarried". Nobody here is saying that miscarriage is a "less than" experience. At all. That's YOUR interpretation of the word, based on YOUR idea that losing a child before or after a certain week is a more traumatic experience. You are free to use the word you prefer in this case as both are acceptable, but please stop policing other people's word choice because it doesn't come out of a place of disrespect.

[nvmbr02]

1 minute ago, frugalitymom said:

I thought the same thing, imagine the anxiety she will feel the next pregnancy leading up to the ultrasound. 

I know  I had a really rough time with the next pregnancy, an even harder time than I did after my earlier miscarriage. I did go on to lose the next pregnancy too, though it was much earlier. When I was pregnant with my youngest my OB was amazing. She had been with me through the previous losses and had me come in weekly for u/s and then doppler checks until I felt comfortable enough just feeling her move and kick. 

I agree with most other posters. The term isn't important. Everyone experiences loss differently and everyone has a different experience. I attempted to labor with my second trimester loss, but after not having any progress after about 15 hours I elected to have a D&C. Mostly because I was struggling being in L&D and hearing the little chimes that played when a baby was born. I wanted to go home.  And yet a close friend found a great deal of peace being able to deliver and hold her little girl, and her loss was almost 2 weeks earlier than my own. 

I hope that the people around Joy are able to surround her with compassion right now and over the next several months. It takes time to heal.

[kiwi]

I thought the same thing, imagine the anxiety she will feel the next pregnancy leading up to the ultrasound. 

It may turn into an unexpected blessing. She should* receive better maternity healthcare as she will be categorised as “high risk”. Not waiting til 20 weeks for an ultrasound, or not waiting so long between ultrasounds.

* i say should - because at the end of the day she has to be willing to recieve said care.

[AliceInFundyland]

I hesitate to use this example because it may have been completely made up by a troll. However, I do think the woman wanted a baby very much.

If it was true she had an ectopic pregnancy at about 12 weeks. But she kept referring to it as a miscarriage and her baby. And you know, up until the point where the whole thing was weird - who really cared? I've always gotten the impression from everyone here that it's a very personal thing. When do the cells equal a baby? That is not for me to say. I never would have thought that this matter of how the loss is specifically categorized played a big role in the situation.

And I am not saying that as another way to ruffle feathers. I am bewildered. I didn't know it was a thing.

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, kiwi said:

 

It may turn into an unexpected blessing. She should* receive better maternity healthcare as she will be categorised as “high risk”. Not waiting til 20 weeks for an ultrasound, or not waiting so long between ultrasounds.

* i say should - because at the end of the day she has to be willing to recieve said care.
 

 

hopefully as it has with the Bates this will wake up the Duggar daughters that they need better medical care. (before I get jumped on I want to say i am in no way saying that more medical care could/or couldn't have prevented this. just hope for Joy's physical and mental health the next pregnancy is closely monitored.

[Jessalyn]

So sad.

Its going to be hard not to compare herself to the three due in November, and moving forward to Kendra, they were mirroring each other with their kids, and now there will be a distinct difference. 

I was also interested to hear that she too was having a girl, all girls for 2019

[SillyDillys]

I lost my first and only pregnancy at 9 weeks. Granted it was an unwanted pregnancy but if the time comes where I decide to have a child  My anxiety will be through the roof wondering if I will have any issues getting/keeping a pregnancy. If joy gets pregnant again I'm sure she is going to feel alot of nerves. Hopefully joy will recieve proper prenatal care. Shes had one emergency c section and a hard delivery and a late pregnancy loss in 2 years. Doctors will definitely look at her as high risk in other pregnancies. Again my heart goes out to them

[Jezzable]

36 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The term miscarriage dismisses the significance of a late loss. People hear miscarriage and they assume an early loss of a fetus with no form. The “ball of cells”.

You keep saying this, but you do not speak for me. I have never referred to any of my miscarriages as a fetus with no form or a ball of cells. Aren't you doing what you are claiming others are doing by diminishing the value of my unborn children?

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

15 minutes ago, kiwi said:

It may turn into an unexpected blessing. She should* receive better maternity healthcare as she will be categorised as “high risk”. Not waiting til 20 weeks for an ultrasound, or not waiting so long between ultrasounds.

* i say should - because at the end of the day she has to be willing to recieve said care.
 

 

Thank you for saying this, I was trying to think of way to say just this with out sounding like I was saying, I hoped they learned their lesson and get prenatal care from now on. I didn't want to imply that I thought they did something to cause this, because I don't, I just couldn't find a good way to express myself.  

[luv2laugh]

Would joy have already delivered? Would she have had a D&C or go through labor?

Loss is personal and not political. We do not even know if it was exactly 20 weeks...

 

[AliceInFundyland]

I think someone mentioned this already but I would hope this was a moment where Michelle was able to come through as a mother. The girls seem to like having her there for births. In this instance she knows exactly what Joy experienced. So even if the advice is "Jesus" I hope that's comforting.

.... I do wish Michelle was as influential on her daughter's birthing plans as say, Mrs. Caldwell. But, she's proved calm in an emergency, so I guess that's a thing. It would probably require knowing them better.

I feel bad for Joy and Austin. I'm depressed about youngin's birthing for the Lord. Oh, and that some portion of this is no doubt on film. Because all the pregnant girls together! Can't miss TV.

This cycle is horrible. Austin is one with skillz. And his parents have their own (stupid) business. They could very well keep themselves shielded from the world if they were smart.

Edited July 4, 2019 by AliceInFundyland

[zcccrv]

My 25 week old unborn child is kicking around and I still sometimes refer to her as "fetus". My body, my terminology. If I were to lose the pregnancy I would refer to it as a late miscarriage. Again, my choice. I make the distinction between labouring with the expectation of a healthy outcome and labouring with the knowledge that the child passed away. That's the only important emotional distinction for me and I don't even know how my country officially classifies those things. Who cares.

I feel for Joy and Austin.

Edited July 4, 2019 by zcccrv

[Timetraveler]

Poor Joy and Austin. It must be so hard being confronted with all the other pregnancies all the time. I do hope they are allowed to be angry and sad though. I am not even sure if the idea of a God taking the life of your baby/bringing the baby 'home' is comforting or the opposite. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I think someone mentioned this already but I would hope this was a moment where Michelle was able to come through as a mother. The girls seem to like having her there for births. In this instance she knows exactly what Joy experienced. So even if the advice is "Jesus" I hope that's comforting.

.... I do wish Michelle was as influential on her daughter's birthing plans as say, Mrs. Caldwell. But, she's proved calm in an emergency, so I guess that's a thing. It would probably require knowing them better.

I feel bad for Joy and Austin. I'm depressed about youngin's birthing for the Lord.

or Kelly Bates I think after Addie was born that scared her enough to make her realize she needed more medical help and now she tells all her daughters/in law that it's okay to go to the hospital that its okay to ask for the epidural she just wants to see healthy moms and babies. I remember when Whit was pregnant with Bradly they had a conversation about this on the show. 

3 minutes ago, Timetraveler said:

Poor Joy and Austin. It must be so hard being confronted with all the other pregnancies all the time. I do hope they are allowed to be angry and sad though. I am not even sure if the idea of a God taking the life of your baby/bringing the baby 'home' is comforting or the opposite. 

honestly I have my doubts about this and this is what makes me think that. 

Quote

God has given us unexplainable peace and comfort during this very difficult time.

 

[socalgurl83]

I just read the Duggar announcement on IG and I gasped.  I'm sorry to hear that. They just lost grandma and they were all thrilled with all of the granddaughters coming. She at least has support from her sisters in law and friends who have been through it unfortunately. Sad.

[Ms. Squishels]

Back many years ago, nearly 30, my best friend was pregnant with her second baby.  First pregnancy had been great, no issues, easy birth and very pleasant experience.  She was going to the 20-week ultrasound with No. 2.  Her husband couldn't go, so she asked if I would like to go with her.  We were both excited.  I can't tell you how horrible it was to be with her when she had basically the exact same experience Joy has described.  No heartbeat, no movement.  It was awful.  She sadly went on to have six more miscarriages and then a hysterectomy at the end of all that.  I feel so very sad for Joy and Austin.  Hopefully her next pregnancy will be free of any problems.  It will be hard to watch everyone have all these baby girls that are due, but I'm sure she'll be pregnant again pretty soon, and she will most likely end up with one that's just a little younger than the ones that are coming soon.  She's young and I hope she's feeling better soon and that she'll have another one once she's ready.  And oh my goodness, I just have to say, I think that little Gideon is so cute and smiley!

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

9 minutes ago, SillyDillys said:

I lost my first and only pregnancy at 9 weeks. Granted it was an unwanted pregnancy but if the time comes where I decide to have a child  My anxiety will be through the roof wondering if I will have any issues getting/keeping a pregnancy. If joy gets pregnant again I'm sure she is going to feel alot of nerves. Hopefully joy will recieve proper prenatal care. Shes had one emergency c section and a hard delivery and a late pregnancy loss in 2 years. Doctors will definitely look at her as high risk in other pregnancies. Again my heart goes out to them

My hope is that she will get proper mental health care to deal with this loss. 

[Bethella]

16 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Would joy have already delivered? Would she have had a D&C or go through labor?

Loss is personal and not political. We do not even know if it was exactly 20 weeks...

Based on the due date of November 6 (from a posted ultrasound picture) and the reference in the announcement to being told a week ago that they'd lost the baby, she would have been 21 weeks 0 days on June 26 but that information could be inexact. At that gestation she was probably given a choice of laboring or having a D&E. (I'm not a medical doctor but I think D&C is used in the first trimester while D&E is used in the second trimester). If she did decide to labor she could have been given the chance to wait and deliver naturally or to be induced. (IIRC Michelle chose to wait and deliver naturally with Jubilee.)

There's no way to know unless they tell us and it's their right not to tell us anything beyond what they already have. Although I'll be rather cynical and expect that we'll learn something more via the show.

[Fundie Bunny]

I can't imagine what these two are gong trhough. At 21 weeks of pregnancy, my youngest  niece had a name, clothes, a stroller, a crib, and a half decorated nursery. Losing a pregnancy at this stage must be horrible. 5 months of prepararon for a baby, and then this. I hope they never go through this again