Joy & Austin 27 - Joy and Austin lost baby Annabell, TRIGGER WARNING miscarriage and stillbirth

[Smee]

Also, totally not relevant, but since when does Annabell mean “God has favoured me”? Anna and the variants usually = grace or gracious (from the Hebrew that also gives us Hannah), and belle means beautiful. I mean, graceful and beautiful is a great meaning to give your child too, and the Ann-names all grew out of religious tradition, but it doesn’t mean what they’re saying it means.

[TeaGrannie]

How awful for them. I hope they get the support and comfort they need. 

[pugglemama]

2 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

And the NHS categorizes a loss at 20 weeks as a miscarriage. Period. 

What is your point here? Plenty of FJers have discussed before how intensely tragic their experience with miscarriage was. No one has been dismissive of miscarriages or defined them as inconsequential other than you. No one has disrespected the loss.

I understand this is an emotionally charged topic for you considering your experience, but you don't get to order people to "stop arguing" or tell them they are disrespecting the family for using valid medical sources other than yours.

The point is, I know many mothers who have had stillbirths. I know many who have delivered their living babies pre-viability (myself included). Those losses are labeled as miscarriages. And to most of the world a miscarriage is a faceless, nameless loss of a ball of cells that didn’t develop. There is a HUGE difference. How about you listen and learn instead of being an insensitive jerk?

[llucie]

7 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

No you are not. Medically, it is a stillbirth. 

Up to 19w6d, miscarriage. 

20w0d to birth, if there is no heartbeat, stillbirth. Period. Stop arguing. Respect the family and acknowledge the baby. 

Miscarriage is absolutely not the correct terminology at 20 weeks. 

Acording to wikipedia "Stillbirth is typically defined as fetal death at or after 20 to 28 weeks of pregnancy (depending on the source)" so it seems is not a very defined concept.

Personally i have always thought that stillbirth is when the mother has to go trought with a labor to have the baby. At 20 weeks i am certain she had to labor so i would consider it an stillbirth and not a misscarriage.

[MaryOrMartha]

How very sad for their family.

My sympathy to anyone who has experienced pregnancy [at any stage] and neonatal loss. For Christians a life is a life from the very beginning but of course Joy has had 5 months to excitedly prepare for the arrival of this baby. I feel for her. She is so young and has just lost her grandma, too.

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, Smee said:

Also, totally not relevant, but since when does Annabell mean “God has favoured me”? Anna and the variants usually = grace or gracious (from the Hebrew that also gives us Hannah), and belle means beautiful. I mean, graceful and beautiful is a great meaning to give your child too, and the Ann-names all grew out of religious tradition, but it doesn’t mean what they’re saying it means.

you are right about the main meaning but I did find this which is maybe where they are getting it. 

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Annabell

[tdscm]

This is every pregnant woman’s worst nightmare. As soon as I saw the photo, my heart dropped and I had to prepare to read bad news.

Joy and I had due dates just a day apart so I’m feeling extra sad about this one. It’s truly devastating. I hope she gives herself time to heal.

[pugglemama]

6 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Gestational age very much does matter. you need to leave this thread I believe it's really to triggering for you simmer down and stop acting like people are attacking you. 

Don’t talk down to me. I’m simply trying to educate you. Google it. You’ll see I’m right. 

[nvmbr02]

21 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

A lot of medical sources classify a loss at 20 weeks as a miscarriage rather than a stillbirth, so I don’t think there’s any need to infer malicious intent just based on the terminology someone might choose to use in this situation.

It may vary a bit by hospital and/or state too. When we lost our baby boy at 19 weeks 5 days it was classified as a miscarriage. However if I would have found out a couple of days later, at 20 weeks, it would have been still birth and we would have been required by the state to buy for a burial or cremation among other things. 

I am heartbroken for them. It is extremely hard to grieve a loss while everyone around you is pregnant. And the fact that that everyone is expecting girls will make it that much harder on her/them. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

Don’t talk down to me. I’m simply trying to educate you. Google it. You’ll see I’m right. 

you have been proven wrong many times over by many people. I think you are just doing this to upset yourself now.  i'm sorry for you loss really but we don't need your education. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Ivycoveredtower

[viii]

I personally find it really inappropriate that the majority of the three pages are discussing miscarriage vs stillbirth. 

Joy has experienced of the worst losses a person can experience. Full stop. 

What a terrible season for Joy to enter in, as there are so many baby girls due in that family around a short period of time. I hope that they have a strong and sensitive support group around them. While their faith is sure to bring them comfort, I hope it doesn't stifle their grief, or have them expected to put on brave faces as a 'testimony' for others. I hope they are given their space to properly mourn as they would like to. 

Edit: Would a mod be able to update the title of the thread so people are aware?

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by viii

[fundieundies]

16 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

I had two first trimester miscarriages and a 20 week premature delivery that resulted in the death of my daughter. I do not see them as even close to equal. To me Joy’s loss is way more devastating than Lauren’s miscarriage. Those who keep claiming Lauren’s current pregnancy is a miracle or whatever are crazy. Josiah and Lauren are two young 20 somethings. It isn’t a miracle they got pregnant while using no birth control and most likely having very frequent sex. 

This is obviously a very sensitive topic for you but I don't think it's helpful or productive in any way to push your experiences (which absolutely no one is diminishing or trivializing by any means) onto the experiences of Lauren & Joy. Everyone is extremely cognizant of the severe loss they've suffered, everyone understands the losses you've been though. They have different faiths, different views and different lifestyles which brought us onto this site in the first place. It would be a mistake to categorize their experience of stillbirth & miscarriage as being the same as yours. Every loss is unique, every woman has a choice to deal with it in any way that comforts her or her family. No one is talking down to you, belittling you or ignoring your experiences but they have brought up sources to back up what they've said. It's your prerogative to disagree but turning a thread full of sympathy for a young girl who just lost her daughter into an argument about how you contextualize your experience is frankly in extremely poor taste. I say this in the kindest way possible, I really don't think this is the place for you right now. 

Also - it is extremely harsh and honestly I'm shocked that you, someone who fighting so ardently to validate their experience online here, could say something so insensitive about Lauren & Josiah. A loss is a loss, no matter the circumstances. Please be more sensitive and respectful next time, I hope we get to see a better side of you.

Edited July 4, 2019 by fundieundies
Edited for clarity & more thoughts

[FrozenSmile]

This is just heartbreaking. Poor Joy & Austin ?

[llucie]

1 minute ago, viii said:

 

What a terrible season for Joy to enter in, as there are so many baby girls due in that family around a short period of time. I hope that they have a strong and sensitive support group around them. While their faith is sure to bring them comfort, I hope it doesn't stifle their grief, or have them expected to put on brave faces as a 'testimony' for others. I hope they are given their space to properly mourn as they would like to. 

 

Its going to be so awfull for her in november with all the babies that are due around the time she would have had her girl, i cant imagine. 

[SilverBeach]

"Stillbirths. Definition. The definition recommended by WHO for international comparison is a baby born with no signs of life at or after 28 weeks' gestation."

"Stillbirth: The birth of a dead baby, the delivery of a fetus that has died before birth for which there is no possibility of resuscitation. The distinction between a stillbirth and a miscarriage is arbitrary. The dividing line has variously set at 20 to 24 weeks of gestation or at a specific weight, such as 500g. Before that time it is a miscarriage, and after that time it is a stillbirth."

"still·birth

the birth of an infant that has died in the womb (strictly, after having survived through at least the first 28 weeks of pregnancy, earlier instances being regarded as abortion or miscarriage)."

"A stillbirth is the death or loss of a baby before or during delivery. Both miscarriage and stillbirth describe pregnancy loss, but they differ according to when the loss occurs. In the United States, a miscarriage is usually defined as loss of a baby before the 20th week of pregnancy, and a stillbirth is loss of a baby after 20 weeks of pregnancy."

Just a few definitions found after a quick Google search. There doesn't appear to be a single accepted  gestational age defining what a stillbirth is. Anybody can use whatever works for them, but others are not wrong using something else. 

My condolences to Joy and Austin. I hope she doesn't blame herself, and that she takes time to heal. 

Backing away and tiptoeing slowly out..... 

[llucie]

8 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

you are right about the main meaning but I did find this which is maybe where they are getting it. 

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Annabell

I find the name so pretty. I think her and Austin have great taste in names. I also really like Gideon.

[mango_fandango]

Oh God, poor Joy. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be for them. 

[pugglemama]

6 minutes ago, viii said:

I personally find it really inappropriate that the majority of the three pages are discussing miscarriage vs stillbirth. 

Joy has experienced of the worst losses a person can experience. Full stop. 

What a terrible season for Joy to enter in, as there are so many baby girls due in that family around a short period of time. I hope that they have a strong and sensitive support group around them. While their faith is sure to bring them comfort, I hope it doesn't stifle their grief, or have them expected to put on brave faces as a 'testimony' for others. I hope they are given their space to properly mourn as they would like to. 

Edit: Would a mod be able to update the title of the thread so people are aware?

 

The fact is, mothers who have had a stillbirth are offended when their loss is referred to as a miscarriage. It is tacky and disrespectful to continue to do so. 

[AliceInFundyland]

I reported to the mods so they can hopefully change the thread title.

[Nikedagain?]

4 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The fact is, mothers who have had a stillbirth are offended when their loss is referred to as a miscarriage. It is tacky and disrespectful to continue to do so. 

Another fact is, there are lots of mothers here who have experienced very different types of loss. I would never begin to speak for them.

Let's ALL be sensitive. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Nikedagain?

[fundieundies]

2 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The fact is, mothers who have had a stillbirth are offended when their loss is referred to as a miscarriage. It is tacky and disrespectful to continue to do so. 

What's tacky and disrespectful is turning a thread full of sympathy into a contest over terminology and who has suffered a greater loss. Grief isn't a competition, it's a human experience that you, Joy, Lauren and countless other women have all gone through. I genuinely don't want to come off as harsh but you have spent 3 pages doing this, when we're all trying to just give the girl a pass in one of her darkest hours that no woman should go through. Please do not use your losses to excuse your insensitivity towards Lauren or Joy. Your feelings regarding proper terminology are valid, but this is not the place.

[kiwi]

Absolutely feel for them on this, poor Joy - she seemed to be doing everything so different to Gideons pregnancy to hopefully have a different outcome (no cs). From IG you could tell She was walking lots and eating better. How devastating for her to be thinking she was doing all the right things and the outcome is so so devastating. They seem to do a lot of self blame when pregnancies dont work out. Lauren did it, she took the weight of it all on and I honestly don’t think she has properly grieved her loss.

So creepy all the families comments on her post are about looking forward to seeing the baby in heaven with them. The fact that they all say this is screaming “suicide pact” to me [emoji51]

[viii]

5 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The fact is, mothers who have had a stillbirth are offended when their loss is referred to as a miscarriage. It is tacky and disrespectful to continue to do so. 

You have made your point. You cannot force people to agree with you or change their opinions. So continuing to argue is just taking away from anyone who has experienced a loss, and taking away from the Joy & Austin discussion. 

In the words of Elsa... let it go. 

[AliceInFundyland]

4 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The fact is, mothers who have had a stillbirth are offended when their loss is referred to as a miscarriage. It is tacky and disrespectful to continue to do so. 

Don't you think this argument is also a bit tacky and disrespectful?

People gave you sources different to your own and sympathy. You aren't new here. We are always supportive as a community and sympathetic to losses.

Since there are many different definitions out there and we all do agree that this is a sad thing - why are we arguing?

[pugglemama]

 

Just now, fundieundies said:

What's tacky and disrespectful is turning a thread full of sympathy into a contest over terminology and who has suffered a greater loss. Grief isn't a competition, it's a human experience that you, Joy, Lauren and countless other women have all gone through. I genuinely don't want to come off as harsh but you have spent 3 pages doing this, when we're all trying to just give the girl a pass in one of her darkest hours that no woman should go through. Please do not use your losses to excuse your insensitivity towards Lauren or Joy. Your feelings regarding proper terminology are valid, but this is not the place.

This is very much the place. Calling the loss of Annabell a miscarriage is disrespectful to both baby and mother. I have been there. I have many dear friends I’ve met through support groups who have been there. And every single one of us finds the term miscarriage disrespectful and dismissive of our late term losses.