Joy & Austin 27 - Joy and Austin lost baby Annabell, TRIGGER WARNING miscarriage and stillbirth

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I just can't imagine, finding out at 20 weeks the baby's heart had stopped beating,  I feel so badly for them.  No words. 

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by allthegoodnamesrgone
I didn't like what I said, so I changed it.

[SilverBeach]

10 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The fact is, mothers who have had a stillbirth are offended when their loss is referred to as a miscarriage. It is tacky and disrespectful to continue to do so. 

I truly don't understand where you are coming from. The pain of losing a baby is the same, miscarriage or not, when it is loved and wanted. There is disagreement about when the early stillbirth period is. Some, not all mothers might be offended, as you are, but others just appreciate the compassion being shown to them. No one is trying to be tacky (?), offend, or disrespect anyone who has suffered a loss, regardless of the terminology they use, this is a good group of humans here. 

I am so sorry for your loss, but perhaps you should step away for a while as this thread seems to be triggering you. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by SilverBeach

[fundieundies]

1 minute ago, pugglemama said:

 

This is very much the place. Calling the loss of Annabell a miscarriage is disrespectful to both baby and mother. I have been there. I have many dear friends I’ve met through support groups who have been there. And every single one of us finds the term miscarriage disrespectful and dismissive of our late term losses. 

You have no idea how Joy chooses to categorize her loss at all. Please stop pushing your experience and your views onto her loss. This is a place to share sympathies, not argue over what the proper term for this horrifying experience is. Would you argue over whether a deceased person died of a blood clot or stroke at a funeral? No. If you can't have respect then walk away.

[pugglemama]

2 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

Don't you think this argument is also a bit tacky and disrespectful?

People gave you sources different to your own and sympathy. You aren't new here. We are always supportive as a community and sympathetic to losses.

Since there are many different definitions out there and we all do agree that this is a sad thing - why are we arguing?

The AMERICAN definition of stillbirth is a loss with no heartbeat at or after 20 weeks. This includes the ACOG and AAP. Period. I’m just asking that you all refer to Joy’s loss respectfully. Referring to her as a miscarriage is wrong and disrespectful. Why is this so difficult?!

[Ivycoveredtower]

7 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I just can't imagine, this late of a miscarriage, it has to be as painful as a stillbirth.  I feel so badly for them.  No words. 

and when they found it out too only weeks ago she lost her grandma, then she watches all her sisters in law announce it's a girl. and when she goes in for her scan a time that should be happy she finds that yes she's having a girl just like everyone else but the child has passed away. now she has to watch Anna, Kendra and Lauren grow and then seeing them in their arms around the time Annabelle should have been born that has to be crushing. not that I think it would have been easier if she was having a boy and lost him but something about it also being a girl in a sea of new girl grandbabies just adds an extra ache to my heart. 

[PainfullyAware]

Can we agree the real name for this is "tragedy"? 

How terrible for them both. I hope they have support and love while they grieve.

[Kayleigh83]

1 minute ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

and when they found it out too only weeks ago she lost her grandma, then she watches all her sisters in law announce it's a girl. and when she goes in for her scan a time that should be happy she finds that yes she's having a girl just like everyone else but the child has passed away. now she has to watch Anna, Kendra and Lauren grow and then seeing them in their arms around the time Annabelle should have been born that has to be crushing. not that I think it would have been easier if she was having a boy and lost him but something about it also being a girl in a sea of new girl grandbabies just adds an extra ache to my heart. 

I keep thinking about how hard it will be once all the babies in her family start being born around that same time. I have no doubt they will conceive again, but that doesn't replace this lost one or lessen that pain for them. So sad.

[singsingsing]

6 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The AMERICAN definition of stillbirth is a loss with no heartbeat at or after 20 weeks. This includes the ACOG and AAP. Period. I’m just asking that you all refer to Joy’s loss respectfully. Referring to her as a miscarriage is wrong and disrespectful. Why is this so difficult?!

Not everyone on this forum is American. And you have no idea what experiences the people you’re responding to have had. You’re being incredibly unkind and this is totally unnecessary in a thread about another woman’s loss where not a single person was diminishing that loss in any way. Please stop.

[pugglemama]

7 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I truly don't understand where you are coming from. The pain of losing a baby is the same, miscarriage or not, when it is loved and wanted. There is disagreement about when the early stillbirth period is. Some, not all mothers might be offended, as you are, but others just appreciate the compassion being shown to them. No one is trying to be tacky (?), offend, or disrespect anyone who has suffered a loss, regardless of the terminology they use, this is a good group of humans here. 

I am so sorry for your loss, but perhaps you should step away for a while as this thread seems to be triggering you. 

The term miscarriage dismisses the significance of a late loss. People hear miscarriage and they assume an early loss of a fetus with no form. The “ball of cells”. Ive heard of stillbirths all the way up to 40 weeks referred to as miscarriages. It discounts the magnitude of the loss of a fully formed baby who still has to be delivered. 

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, fundieundies said:

And every single one of us finds the term miscarriage disrespectful and dismissive of our late term losses. 

Not a fundiesundies quote, but pugglemama.

Twenty weeks would be considered an early stillbirth, not late term. But what difference does it make? Absolutely no one is being disrespectful or dismissive of anyone. Actually, it is disrespectful and dismissive to imply that those who suffered miscarriages had less of a loss than those who suffered stillbirths. It's not the suffering olympics! Members on this board have describe their pain after having miscarriages. I don't get the hostility. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

Just now, Kayleigh83 said:

I keep thinking about how hard it will be once all the babies in her family start being born around that same time. I have no doubt they will conceive again, but that doesn't replace this lost one or lessen that pain for them. So sad.

If I was in Joy's shoes I would be terrified of getting pregnant again. I honestly don't think I could handle the worry that another late loss would happen. 

[Smee]

 

6 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The AMERICAN definition of stillbirth is a loss with no heartbeat at or after 20 weeks. This includes the ACOG and AAP. Period. I’m just asking that you all refer to Joy’s loss respectfully. Referring to her as a miscarriage is wrong and disrespectful. Why is this so difficult?!

It’s been 4 pages. You made your point. Every post I’ve seen SINCE your point (except the ones specifically addressing terminology, including sources) has expressed sympathy for Joy and either just referred to it as a loss, a lost pregnancy, a lost daughter, a tragedy, or a stillbirth. If there’d been 4 more pages of people totally ignoring you and saying “oh how sad, Joy had a miscarriage just like Lauren”, maybe I could understand continuing to argue. But at this point you don’t stand to gain anything so I’m not sure what you want.

[AliceInFundyland]

This is absolutely one of the most insane derailments I have ever seen. Guys, we need to bite our fingers and stop ourselves.

[pugglemama]

Just now, Ivycoveredtower said:

If I was in Joy's shoes I would be terrified of getting pregnant again. I honestly don't think I could handle the worry that another late loss would happen. 

Pregnancy after loss is indeed terrifying. However, the chances of the same thing happening is low, especially at her age. I made friends with a lot of moms who lost babies around the time I lost my daughter and out of 15 or so of us pregnant again together, only one had another loss. 

[TeaGrannie]

I never thought this would be the kind of discussion where I had to use the ignore user feature. 

[pugglemama]

1 minute ago, Smee said:

 

It’s been 4 pages. You made your point. Every post I’ve seen SINCE your point (except the ones specifically addressing terminology, including sources) has expressed sympathy for Joy and either just referred to it as a loss, a lost pregnancy, a lost daughter, a tragedy, or a stillbirth. If there’d been 4 more pages of people totally ignoring you and saying “oh how sad, Joy had a miscarriage just like Lauren”, maybe I could understand continuing to argue. But at this point you don’t stand to gain anything so I’m not sure what you want.

You’re being willfully ignorant to the use of terminology. I get that you all hate the Duggars but you could be a little less asshole-ish by listening and using the correct terminology. 

[SilverBeach]

9 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The AMERICAN definition of stillbirth is a loss with no heartbeat at or after 20 weeks. This includes the ACOG and AAP. Period. I’m just asking that you all refer to Joy’s loss respectfully. Referring to her as a miscarriage is wrong and disrespectful. Why is this so difficult?!

Because you are being pedantic and controlling, that's why. Nobody here is disrespecting Joy's loss, period. American definition, whatever, it's still not the only definition. Why is this so important to you? Where do you get off calling other members wrong? We disagree all the time around here, but steamrolling isn't appreciated. 

[pugglemama]

Just now, SilverBeach said:

Because you are being pedantic and controlling, that's why. Nobody here is disrespecting Joy's loss, period. American definition, whatever, it's still not the only definition. Why is this so important to you? Where do you get off calling other members wrong? We disagree all the time around here, but steamrolling isn't appreciated. 

It’s important to me because I’ve been part of the baby loss world for ten years. I’ve seen the affect on mom’s whose losses have been disrespected and dismissed. The term miscarriage is dismissive. Babies delivered without a heartbeat at or after 20 weeks are stillborn. I don’t understand why this simple fact can’t be respected and uses appropriately. 

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, pugglemama said:

Does not matter. Why disrespect the loss? There is a huge difference between miscarriage and stillbirth. Most people think of miscarriage as something inconsequential, the loss of a very early fetus with no form. At this stage, this is very much a tiny baby. I’ve had people refer to my loss (which was the delivery of a very much alive 20 1/2 weeker) as a miscarriage. It’s about the preconceptions of miscarriage. Just respect the family and the lost child and refer to her appropriately. 

The March of Dimes defines a loss at 20 weeks or later as a stillbirth. Period. 

I am sorry for the loss you experienced.  I agree that terminology doesn't really matter in these situations.  It's personal and a very difficult/delicate situation.   I miscarried at 12 weeks. A few days before " the safer time" of the second trimester.  I'm comfortable with miscarry as I didn't have to birth the baby. My body had already started to absorb my baby. I was in shock and upset. I remember the Dr. saying when I asked if it could pass naturally,  to " get a D&C because you don't want to worry for days if that was it, plus hemoraging  could happen".   I went against my instincts.  I think I needed that. The D&C was very traumatic.  I felt like I did that on purpose and no one addressed that or even really asked me.  I was crying in the prep room. The nurse walked over and placed a tissue box on my chest and walked away.  My husband wasn't allowed in that room. I was loney and scared, confused. 

So, Joy can say whatever she wants right now. It's hard.  Terminology doesn't really matter here.  I feel for them. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Beermeet

[AliceInFundyland]

4 minutes ago, TeaGrannie said:

I never thought this would be the kind of discussion where I had to use the ignore user feature. 

Never a dull moment at FJ.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

2 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

You’re being willfully ignorant to the use of terminology. I get that you all hate the Duggars but you could be a little less asshole-ish by listening and using the correct terminology. 

STOP! JUST STOP!  It is completely irrelevant to this horrific event, she lost her baby,  the rest is minutia, I'm sorry for your loss, but you really need to step away, we all understand what you are trying to say, now you need to understand what we are saying.  The terminology isn't important to the fact that a WANTED child was lost, the hows and why are irrelevant to the facts. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Mods hat off.

People, seriously, calm the fuck down. This catfight isn't worth it. Both definitions are technically correct as one is recommended by the WHO and the other is used by US health care providers. Nobody NEEDS to be right on this. Let's remember that words are conventional ways to refer to things to make our thoughts understandable. I am sure none of us wants to be disrespectful to anyone on this topic, so please let's stop policing eachother's wording, both are acceptable and commonly accepted. The fact is that Joy lost her baby pretty late in the pregnancy and nobody denies it nor that the loss must be heartbreaking. Let's not turn this into the suffering Olympics over who's had the worst life experiences because it's ugly and makes zero sense. So everyone can use the definition they prefer, but please stop dictating what words other people should use. Thank you.

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

If I was in Joy's shoes I would be terrified of getting pregnant again. I honestly don't think I could handle the worry that another late loss would happen. 

I am going to go out on a long limb here, but based on their religious beliefs and their ideas with regards to birth control, this experience will be viewed within the lenses of a struggle, placed by God and a promise of rejoining, for eternity, in heaven. Most of us plan and prepare for a very limited number if children, due to various reasons. While I am sure they are heartbroken and beyond sad at this turn of events, for all that we know there will be nothing stopping them from conceiving again quite readily. They just approach life, death, living and family planning much differently than most. I can’t believe several of her sisters have continued to post happy photos of their children and babies on IG ( including today)this past week. Most of us would  have shut that down for a spell.

[SilverBeach]

8 minutes ago, pugglemama said:

The term miscarriage dismisses the significance of a late loss. People hear miscarriage and they assume an early loss of a fetus with no form. The “ball of cells”. Ive heard of stillbirths all the way up to 40 weeks referred to as miscarriages. It discounts the magnitude of the loss of a fully formed baby who still has to be delivered. 

All people don't assume this. Besides, some women love their ball of cells  (I did) and find a loss at whatever point to be devastating. You don't know the magnitude of the loss of  those who have had miscarriages, you aren't them!  Again, not the suffering olympics, it is all very sad and painful. 

[frugalitymom]

13 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

If I was in Joy's shoes I would be terrified of getting pregnant again. I honestly don't think I could handle the worry that another late loss would happen. 

I thought the same thing, imagine the anxiety she will feel the next pregnancy leading up to the ultrasound.