Quiverfull Mom Expresses "Disgust" For 12-Year-Old Daughter

[Austin]

I just finished looking at some of her old stuff. It is clear that something is wrong with her. She rambles and rambles, making the same point over and over again, for paragrah after paragraph. It's kind of mind-boggling.

[Muffy]

Here's a post where she trash-talks the church they were attending back in 2007. I love how she carefully brainwashes her kids to regurgitate her precise opinions...which she then takes as validation for her decision to keep them out of VBS:

So how do we, as individuals, overcome lukewarmness?

Well, regarding my lukewarm church, if I followed and ascribed to everything my church did, what would that make me? Lukewarm.

To overcome, I must look to God and His Word, discern His truth, and if my lukewarm church does something that does not line up with His Word, I must stand for God's truth and not be deceived.

Since God says that all churches are lukewarm, this would be the case wherever I go.

This week our church is having Vacation Bible School. We chose not to be a part of it. I didn't tell my children all the searching my husband and I did on the scriptures about basing the growth of a church around a children's ministry, and using worldly means to draw children to church. There are so many Biblical truths violated by our church's children's ministry, I can't even begin to list them. But by the world's standards, it looks good.

My husband brought home the typed scripts of the skits from VBS.

And here is what I said to my children:

After explaining the above passage to my children, I gave them the following example. I asked them , "Who does God say should be the leaders of the church and the leaders of the home?"

They both said, "Men, fathers."

I said, "That's correct. The Bible says that the man is to be the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church. It also clearly calls men as pastors, and deacons--not women. Women were orginally created to be the helpmeet to the husband."

I went over the typed VBS skits with my children. The main character is "Miss J," who is the boss, the speaker, and the preacher, and the secondary characters, are the men, being portrayed as her subjects, subject to her teachings--and they are also acting like goofballs. I continued, "Now, regarding the Vacation Bible School this week, do you think it honors God or His Word that the skits performed in VBS depict a woman running the show and being in charge of all the teaching, and the men as goofballs and servants and underlings of the woman?"

They both said, "No."

I said, I don't think so, either. I think it's the church's responsibility to reflect God and His truth. Why do you think our church isn't representing God correctly?

Gabe said, "Because our church is lukewarm."

"Exactly," I replied. "And we can OVERCOME this lukewarmness by discerning where God's truth is being violated and standing up for God's truth and not falling subject to Satan's lies and deceit, and Satan's subtle ploys to corrupt God's Word. Our family is overcoming by not being a part of VBS."

I continued, "Just think, almost all the people attending VBS this week, including the teachers and parents, will watch those skits, and they will hear the scripture verses quoted and hear gospel messages, and they will see nothing wrong with it. They will actually think it is good and Godly. Why? Probably because they spend more time watching TV, watching movies, and reading non-Christian books and engaging in non-Christian activities than they do in God's Word. All you see on TV and in movies is women being bossy and demanding, and husbands portrayed like idiots and having to submit to their wives. So when you watch too much TV, seeing this portrayed in a "Christian" way at church doesn't even seem weird."

I then reminded them about an episode of "Everybody Loves Raymond" where we had watched a few minutes. I asked them about the way marriage was portrayed in that show, and if the husband was the head of the home and the wife was the helpmeet. They agreed quickly that the opposite was entirely true. I told them, "Sadly, today, many Christian women and men think this is a good show. They spend too much time watching TV and not enough time studying about what God thinks would be a good show. They are desensitized."

I said, "Let's take our family, for example. We don't watch much TV at all, and watch way less than how much time we spend in church, or at home studying and learning God's Word together.. We don't often watch movies. Your Daddy studies God's Word sometimes more than 2 hours a day, looking up the Greek and Hebrew translations, and perusing various commentaries. I do my best to teach you the truth in God's Word all day every day while you are with me, and to prepare you when you grow up to be the men and women God designed you to be. When I see that skit at VBS, do I think it is good?"

"No."

I asked, "What about you? What do you think of the skit?"

They both said that the skit is not good.

I asked them, "If you were the one putting on a skit for a church, how would you write it?" (The both gave great examples, which, unfortunately for them, I am assigning them a skit-writing project this week for a writing lesson!)

I showed them in verse 21 the reward God reserves for those who overcome. "To sit with Him on His throne."

I asked my children, "When you meet God, do you want to be vomited out of His mouth, or do you want to reign with Him on His throne?"

Gabe said, "Duh."

I said, "Breton, this means you WILL be a real princess one day, if you choose to overcome."

I then asked, "What do you say, kids? Will you be overcomers with me and Daddy?"

They both said, "YES!"

I said, "Good! Now put at the top of your personal prayer list for God to help you to overcome, and pray for it earnestly every day. Daddy and I will continue to teach you God's Word, and you do your best to learn it, and we will work together to make sure this family is not lukewarm. We will work together to learn how to be discerning and detect Satan's subtle lies, and overcome them."

I went on to encourage them on how to NOT be discouraged at church, but to have the heart of a servant, like Jesus, and how to always love others, help others, and minister in our church however God directs. I reminded them that no matter what church God calls our family to, and no matter what church they end up attending when they are grown, they are going to need to know how to overcome.

And, God help us...

We will overcome.

[oscar]

http://web.archive.org/web/200710200314 ... on/301640/

Remember her comments policy on the post entitled "What to do about whining?"

I wholeheartedly welcome and embrace all comments from those who think I am wrong and oppose spanking in any form.

First, I will leap for joy because my reward is great in heaven:

"Blessed are ye when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and LEAP FOR JOY; for behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." Luke 6:22-23

Then, I will pray for you and bless you, and thank God for the opportunity to do so...(and think twice before you post, because ALL my prayers get answered).

"But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you," Matthew 5:44

Then, I will delete your comment.

[Muffy]

Oscar said,

I've been thinking about why Mrs. E's blog is so particularly upsetting to me. Following her writing over the years, it seems like she has become increasingly awful, thanks in no small part to the patriarchal/Quiverfull framework that legitimatizes and reinforces her most damaging beliefs and practices.

Austin said,

I just finished looking at some of her old stuff. It is clear that something is wrong with her. She rambles and rambles, making the same point over and over again, for paragrah after paragraph. It's kind of mind-boggling.

To me, it seems like her writing has grown a lot less readable - more rambling, more repetitive - over the past few years. It's as if her "in control" phases are growing fewer and farther between...which of course would make sense, considering she's been pregnant and/or nursing, and dealing with newborns and toddlers this entire time.

Maybe that's why her blog feels like such a looming disaster. It seems like she's getting less and less healthy...and using the isolated Quiverfull/Gothardite teachings as the theological underpinnings for her unhealthiness.

Again - where is her husband in all this? Doesn't he ever read her blog?

[Muffy]

Ugh. This one solitary line is packed full of ickiness!

Then, I will pray for you and bless you, and thank God for the opportunity to do so...(and think twice before you post, because ALL my prayers get answered).

Makes me wonder what sort of "blessing" she was praying for her negative commenters, if she then goes on to warn them to "think twice," since all her prayers "get answered." I mean, if she's really praying for blessings on her detractors, then I'd think they'd eagerly comment negatively...unless she doesn't actually mean she wants them to be blessed.

How self-deceived can a person be?

[oscar]

Ugh. This one solitary line is packed full of ickiness!

Makes me wonder what sort of "blessing" she was praying for her negative commenters, if she then goes on to warn them to "think twice," since all her prayers "get answered." I mean, if she's really praying for blessings on her detractors, then I'd think they'd eagerly comment negatively...unless she doesn't actually mean she wants them to be blessed.

How self-deceived can a person be?

In the comments on the subsequent post, where she restates her comment policy, someone reproached her for her "baiting" tone. She replied,

I realize now that in my emotion the title to my post certainly was baiting. I do not want that. But after careful prayer, I do believe that God draws the people to my site that He wants to draw. I want those people (who want to call me "evil") to understand that God is involved and, should they ever come to Christ, in retrospect, see His hand in it. I am praying for each of those commentors, specifically that the Father will draw them.

Based on that, I'd estimate her level of self-deception as "unfathomable."

[oscar]

Okay, I need to stop with the Mrs. E before bed, or else I'll be too worked up to fall asleep.

But before I call it quits for the night, who wants to guess what she thinks about the Pearls?

Thank God for sending the Pearls!

http://web.archive.org/web/200710200312 ... on/227545/

[Wolfie]

I really hope that this isn't going to turn into an Andrea Yates type of situation. I really hope that when the oldest is 18 he can get out of there and somehow get custody of his sister.

[BlackHawk]

So she's in a manic phase now? What's going to happen when she crashes? Will she think she is (or worse, her children) are possessed by a demon and in need of exorcism/ dsicipline? I fear for her kids.

Actually when she crashes she does seem to take the fault. Last major crash she had she put herself through humility boot camp. It's late and I can't find the post quickly, but it's on her new blog (Mrs. E one). She takes the crashes as if she's not good enough, or as if she has become too controlling again. The crashes she actually seems to have her head on a bit more straight. It's the manic phases that suddenly her children aren't doing enough, aren't doing it with the right heart, and she much correct them. It's horribly sad to watch it all, sadly.

[Mompom]

The crashes she actually seems to have her head on a bit more straight. It's the manic phases that suddenly her children aren't doing enough, aren't doing it with the right heart, and she much correct them. It's horribly sad to watch it all, sadly.

Totally agree. If she truly has mental health issues, as she has stated she does, then this whole thing is just really tragic.

I homeschool. I love it. I mean love it. But there was a time (we have other issues, medical, serious brain damage, adoption, ADHD, etc) when I was severely depressed. I had the presence of mind to say, "I can't do this. I want to. I love teaching my kids, but I can hardly get out of bed let alone cram the entirety of K-12 into my children's brains at this point." And I put them in school, went to a counselor, got bloodwork, figured out I was deficient in Vitamin D, iron, and thyroid levels, figured out a balance between "me" and "what I do for the fam". Public school, in our case, is not always great. And when I was healthy again, I was able to work with the two kids that I knew I could help. I have left my other one in school, and that's okay. He's fine with it and I'm fine with it. Things may change. My point is, during that "depressed" time, I needed my friends, family, and husband to say the truth. The truth was I was burned out. I couldn't be mom, teacher, therapist, nurse, wife, ME, healthy, friend, and sane at that time.

They didn't fault me because they knew that all I wanted was to help my kids have the skills to have a high quality life. I wasn't trying to be a martyr or a saint. I just wanted to help my kids and didn't have everything I needed to be able to do it at that time.

I wish that someone would encourage her to seek some other options. At this time, she may truly be depending on her daughter so much that she can't even see it anymore. Her kids may be carrying the load. I can see where she wouldn't want to admit that. But it's not fair to her kids. And it's a pretty horrible life for her too. Someday she will regret it.

The truth is good. It's brave to say the truth in a kind way, and she needs some strong, close friends right now who will. Unfortunately, it sounds like she's pushed everyone at church and in her life away with her self righteous attitude and separatist lifestyle (and the skits) :roll: .

[let-them-eat-cake]

She sounds a bit like my parents when it comes to talks of "rebellion" except wayyyyyyy worse. "If you're not happy, you're sinning, being rebellious, and need to repent. You can't ever have any other emotion except for sheer joy. Sadness and anger are "wrong" emotions and will not be tolerated."

[AnnoDomini]

Also extremely much this. The mother is just fixated on this "rebellion" that she can't even really objectively SEE - from her own report, the kid is willingly doing the chores, smiling (even if under duress) and even anticpating things.

I've had a boss with some tendencies in this direction and it was horrible. He always wanted us to "be proactive" or "be more enthusiastic" or "try harder" or similar things, but would never, EVER, give any concrete directions as to what exactly that would MEAN, in terms of the work being done or even smiles at the office or customer service or ANYTHING. Because if you have to ask, then your heart's not in it and you aren't getting it yet. But meanwhile, he'll know it when he sees it. When he sees what? Well, he can't say. But he'll just know.

Worst boss ever.

UGH yes! My mother, though I love her and she has many great qualities, had some of this. She actually threatened to throw me out if I didn't stop making her feel 'like a bad parent' yet couldn't give me concrete things to not do, or if she did, and I did exactly what she said in all good faith and intentions, it wasn't enough.

[jenny_islander]

Buried under all that is the assumption "It's your job to make me feel okay. If I don't feel okay, it must somehow be your fault."

Bad boss, bad parent, bad idea in general.

[annalena]

wow. sounds like a regular 12 y old who'd rather hang out with her friends than do chores ( probably a ton of them ) and take care of her brothers. sounds like sometimes she enjoy playing with her brothers, sometimes she doesn't. perfectly normal.

this whole rebellion thing, it's called puberty. rebellino is healthy and needed to become an adult. and, btw, mrs.e just because your daughter doesn't view things the way you do does NOT MEAN she is wrong. it just means her opinion is DIFFERENT or her priorities are or her worldview is.

hell how i hate that . people seeing others with opinions that differ from theirs and just decide the others are all wrong. it particulary bugs me when parents do that.

[JesusFightClub]

The fact of her mental illness is interesting. I agree with the commenters here asking wtf is dad up to? This is a very bad situation to say the least and if he is supposed to be all manly and shit he should be doing something ....

It sounds as I said like depression or maybe a mixed state but it's gone on too long and she's losing the grip. Was thinking though about people I know who are bipolar and refuse meds. When I am manic I love everyone. They are all brilliant and I want to tell them so (and, unfortunately, I do. Repeatedly). For me the reaction to the wee girl would vary wildly if I was depressed, normal or manic. A horrible thing for a child.

It is a bit unusual because the other people I know don't become more "peopley". But none of them are so aggressive and negative as she is. My mate is bipolar but he won't take meds. When he is manic he decides the Revolution is just around the corner and studies papers for clues obsessively. And tells you about these in great detail, talk about wall of text. Speaking to him, not a word in edgeways. I timed him once and he spoke without stopping for half an hour. He's really happy though.

In the like one time I agree with latraviata internet diagnosis kind of sucks. But IMHO Mrs E needs to hie hersel to a psychiatrist stat. This sounds like a bad case of depression because that seems to be a feature of her depressive moods, that she worries if her children are good enough to go to Heaven. She seems to be energised enough to do something about it. I'm concerned one day it will be a very bad thing. Maybe beating the daughter, or somesuch.

[Sola]

OMG! You know I never thought we would find a blogger who would steal Witch-Lady's (the one who had the failed Haiti adoptions of Justus and Lovelie) crown. But no, we have a new contender for the 'Most Fucked Up Bitch Free Jinger Has Ever Had The Misfortune To Find' Crown™.

A few more pearlers from the sewage filled swamp she calls her blog;

http://homeschoolblogger.com/mrse/781896/ regarding the death of her aunt.

http://homeschoolblogger.com/mrse/781741/ what to expect in children by their age (the one year old has some serious WTF-ery)

What I find bizarre is her refusal to conventionally treat her bi-polar. It is quite obvious from her writings that she still has cyclic episodes. Maybe she is self managing better and perhaps her episodes are not as severe as they used to be (a chaotic lifestyle can cause havoc with the severity of BP) but she still cycles. Yet around a year ago she became sick with ITP, something I am familiar with as I had it at 19. She accepted conventional treatment for it, obviously the right thing to do or she could have died, but she refuses treatment for her bi polar. Mental illness is just as valid, authentic and 'real' as physical illness. It isn't a weakness, it is a chemical imbalance. Why refuse treatment for something that can have just as devastating an effect as a physical illness. It makes no sense to me.

Another concern I have is her 5 year old. He is dx'd with Tourettes and I get the impression he is a real whirlwind. There are links with Tourettes, ADHD, Childhood onset Bi Polar, ASD's and a whole load of other things. I wouldn't at all surprised if he develops something else later along the line. I wonder how she will handle that.

[julie paradox]

ohhhhh, Camilla. My gateway fundie. (And yes, that "skit"! I considered showing it to Adrian Plass: he thought he'd written the World's Worst Christian Sketch, but no. And is it just me, or aren't skits supposed to be funny?)

After that post about beating her baby to get him to sit still some people I showed it to managed to trace her and contact CPS.

Camilla posted about the visit and that they didn't find anything wrong. I lost a little bit of hope that day.

I'm not sure what Erik is doing. Perhaps he's just relieved that his wife appears to be so much more together than she used to be. I will give him credit though - the oldest is not his biological child and from what I can gather they have a good relationship.

[apple1]

Computers, and the internet, are fantastic things (overall).

But some things were never meant to be spewed all over the internet. I truly believe that some people have no concept that the internet is very public (the WORLD wide web IYKWIM), and that once out there, it always exists in some form, even if cached.

Some problems would be best solved in a private manner, and making them so public may make solving them even more difficult.

This situation fits that category.

[Effie]

It sounds like she's being a normal kid and has goals of her own that don't mesh with yours! Try letting her be a kid! Fewer rather than more chores and some time to do what SHE wants might result in a lot better attitude. Her little brother is YOUR problem, not hers. Lighten up or lose her.

Precisely. She is not a grown-up. She doesn't know how to raise a child. It's not that strange that she beat up her brother. How would she know how to correct a child? How would she know what would work in raising a child?

As a 12-year-old I never hit my 6-year-old sibling, but she was not my responsibility. If she would do something wrong, then our parents would correct her with reason. I don't think I would have been a good parent as a 12-year-old. I think extremely few would be good parents at that age. How could they be?

[Muffy]

Mompom said,

I wish that someone would encourage her to seek some other options. At this time, she may truly be depending on her daughter so much that she can't even see it anymore. Her kids may be carrying the load. I can see where she wouldn't want to admit that. But it's not fair to her kids. And it's a pretty horrible life for her too. Someday she will regret it.

I don't think it's a possibility in Mrs. E's thinking, to seek out other options. You handled your difficult time with wisdom, putting your children's needs first. I'm pretty sure Mrs. E's decision to homeschool is part of her foundational belief system - for a lot of Quiverfull families, there can be no other option. They truly believe that "God called them" to homeschool, and anything else would be a sinful shirking of their righteous duty.

That's one of the aspects of Mrs. E's writings that really shines out for me. It feels like she makes even the most mundane lifestyle choices a matter of morality - how she dresses and whether or not her baby sits still through a sermon aren't just matters of individual preference. Instead, God has a clear opinion about them, which he then conveys to her (because she "really really knows him," unlike the rest of us loser Christians who might muddle along, thinking that God doesn't mind a little diversity). Her blog seems to be all about revealing to the rest of the world the higher plane where she's been personally called to live. Homeschooling for her (and for most Quiverfull folks) isn't just one educational option - it's the only possible right choice.

[Effie]

Some of these fundie kids, I just want to kidnap them for a weekend. That girl needs to spend a day at the mall giggling and drinking a Jamba Juice, maybe ended with a mani-pedi and new pajamas and a night watching her favorite movies. You know, to do normal 12 year old girl stuff while her mom takes care of her own damn kids. I bet it would do wonders for her 'attitude'.

Yes, or at least send them encouraging letters. Lots of encouraging words.

So you who have found the family on facebook, perhaps you could contact the father Eric? Or give me his facebook-url and I will write something... about the damage of emotional abuse and neglect.

[Muffy]

Sola posted a link to Mrs. E's thoughts about what parents can expect out of their children, based upon age. Wow. Talk about completely unrealistic!

Age 1

•Respond appropriately to the word “Noâ€

•Lie still to get dressed or changed

•Sit still on a lap when told

•Sit in high chair contentedly during meals

•Play contentedly where put

•Lie down and go to sleep when told

•Observe and attempt simple chores (take clothes out of dryer, use a cloth to wipe a floor or dust, pick up toys, etc.)

Age 2

•Come instantly when called

•Respond instantly to “No†or “Stop†commands

•Help with most chores

•Sit still and quietly when told

•Be helpful, gentle, and loving

•Count to 10, identify shapes, colors, letters, and handle a crayon or pencil

Age 3

•Have a full understanding of obedience

•Begin to learn respectfulness, with joyful obedience

•Able to sit for a story or lesson for up to one hour

•Follows directions quickly

•Flexible in schedule

•Helps with all chores

•Able to do preschool work easily

Age 4

•Assigned chores

•Serves others by choice

•Takes care of own property and keep personal areas organized

•Demonstrates contentedness, self control, and an independent work ethic

•Does not pester, whine, interrupt, or talk excessively (is thoughtful in words)

•Begins to be aware of example to younger children

•Able to help care for younger ones, and play with them selflessly and lovingly

Age 5-6

•Fully aware of example to younger siblings

•Able to watch little ones responsibly and play well with them for a short period of time in a specific area

•Demonstrates respect and honor to adults

•Demonstrates gratefulness

•Starts learning and desiring to learn who God is

•Keeps drawers, shelves, bins, desk, etc. organized at all times

What's so strange is that Mrs. E's theology would presume that children are born sinful, without the ability to please God on their own. Yet she expects perfection out of a 12-month-old baby, who has not even reached an age where he could fully comprehend or make moral choices. As Sola wrote,

OMG! You know I never thought we would find a blogger who would steal Witch-Lady's (the one who had the failed Haiti adoptions of Justus and Lovelie) crown. But no, we have a new contender for the 'Most Fucked Up Bitch Free Jinger Has Ever Had The Misfortune To Find' Crownâ„¢.

I actually had the same thought - that all Mrs. E would need to add to her life would be a couple of failed foreign adoptions, and she'd definitely be in the running.

[Muffy]

Effie said,

So you who have found the family on facebook, perhaps you could contact the father Eric? Or give me his facebook-url and I will write something... about the damage of emotional abuse and neglect.

The tricky thing is, because the E family has apparently identified their extreme Quiverfull beliefs with their Christian faith, to where they equate the two, they will see any negativity about their resultant harsh parenting as an attack on their faith. They will just write it off as being persecuted for their righteousness. Mrs. E would likely take any criticism, especially from the non-Christian "world," as a badge of honor, and as validation that what she is doing truly is of God.

[persuaded]

Effie said,

The tricky thing is, because the E family has apparently identified their extreme Quiverfull beliefs with their Christian faith, to where they equate the two, they will see any negativity about their resultant harsh parenting as an attack on their faith. They will just write it off as being persecuted for their righteousness. Mrs. E would likely take any criticism, especially from the non-Christian "world," as a badge of honor, and as validation that what she is doing truly is of God.

I agree with you Muffy, absolutely. Honestly I think the best tack would be to approach this from the basis of Christianity... for example, I see her as a person singularly lacking in humility. Gently pointing this out (with the use of lots of scripture) would probably be most likely to produce a bit of self examination on her part. She'll just completely discount any kind of criticism originating from outside of her belief system as worldly, ungodly or even as an attack of satan.

I wish I had the time to craft some kind of response to her myself, but we're off for piano lessons and PE classes in about an hour.... and lots to do before that :|

[Koala]

Did you guys read the one where she had her kids post? It was awful. She has them convinced that they would be worthless without her and her training.

Ughhh....