Quiverfull Mom Expresses "Disgust" For 12-Year-Old Daughter

[Kitchen Princess]

It won't matter if you contact the superintendent. There's a religious exemption built right into the code. Camille can just claim the exemption for anything she doesn't want to teach. Plus, it doesn't say that each of those things have to be taught EVERY year.

Most state homeschool laws have very large loopholes that most homeschoolers walk right through. I believe your efforts will be for naught.

[emmiedahl]

I don't think the exemption applies to larger topics. It is more like: the school cannot force you to teach evolution. You still have to teach science.

Either way, a little light on this family cannot hurt.

[tabbytiger]

It won't matter if you contact the superintendent. There's a religious exemption built right into the code. Camille can just claim the exemption for anything she doesn't want to teach. Plus, it doesn't say that each of those things have to be taught EVERY year.

Most state homeschool laws have very large loopholes that most homeschoolers walk right through. I believe your efforts will be for naught.

I don't think much will come of it either, but I feel the need to try. My email said, "I urge you to initiate conversations with the family," and if that happens I'll be happy. It would be good if she were to be a bit scared and reminded that her daughter's education is a serious responsibility. I agree with emmie that the exemption probably applies to topics like evolution, sex ed, etc. and I would be shocked if it can be applied to whole subjects like writing, lit., science.

Another thought is that parents are required to submit all that info at the beginning of the year, and I highly doubt that what Camilla submitted lines up with the info on her blog (priority 1, bible; 2, co-home management; 3, math and social studies but only IF chores and children are well tended; 4, writing, lit, science, etc but mom would prefer she focuses on sewing and crochet). If there are major inconsistencies between what she submitted and what she's practicing, the school district needs to know.

One other thing- she is supposed to ensure that each kid receives 900 hours of education each year. Further down in that post is a paragraph all about how they hardly spend any time at all on school.

Ugh.

[Muffy]

It's my guess that the first thing the state/county would look at would be Mrs. E's kids' test scores. There was a post in which she mentioned end-of-year testing...and since she mentioned it, I'd be surprised if her kids were NOT performing at or above grade level.

It strikes me that her blog has always been about showing the world what an all-knowing expert she is. Even in her most recent post, requesting advice about how to change her daughter's heart and make her have a better attitude, Mrs. E still makes it clear that her 12-year-old is obedient, is doing her chores. She's just not quite as joyful about the chores as Mrs. E thinks she should be...hence the disgust. So even though the post is ostensibly about seeking help, Mrs. E still manages to establish that the stuff that would be of concern to your average parent - getting your kid to do her chores - is already taken care of. Mrs. E operates on a higher plane, you see. Mere ordinary obedience isn't enough for her! No! She wants obedience PLUS a display of "joy."

So...

I don't think standardized end-of-year testing would ever get a mention at all if Mrs. E's children were not doing well on those tests. I'm guessing they probably test above grade level, especially for reading. Most homeschooled kids do.

And if test scores are good enough, I'd guess the state's (or county's) curiosity would be satisfied.

That being said, it will be interesting to see if Mrs. E wises up and just quits blogging altogether. By putting everything out there like that, even though her present blog is a LOT more generic and sanitized than her old blog, she's doing herself no favors.

[persuaded]

It's my guess that the first thing the state/county would look at would be Mrs. E's kids' test scores. There was a post in which she mentioned end-of-year testing...and since she mentioned it, I'd be surprised if her kids were NOT performing at or above grade level.

It strikes me that her blog has always been about showing the world what an all-knowing expert she is. Even in her most recent post, requesting advice about how to change her daughter's heart and make her have a better attitude, Mrs. E still makes it clear that her 12-year-old is obedient, is doing her chores. She's just not quite as joyful about the chores as Mrs. E thinks she should be...hence the disgust. So even though the post is ostensibly about seeking help, Mrs. E still manages to establish that the stuff that would be of concern to your average parent - getting your kid to do her chores - is already taken care of. Mrs. E operates on a higher plane, you see. Mere ordinary obedience isn't enough for her! No! She wants obedience PLUS a display of "joy."

So...

I don't think standardized end-of-year testing would ever get a mention at all if Mrs. E's children were not doing well on those tests. I'm guessing they probably test above grade level, especially for reading. Most homeschooled kids do.

And if test scores are good enough, I'd guess the state's (or county's) curiosity would be satisfied.

That being said, it will be interesting to see if Mrs. E wises up and just quits blogging altogether. By putting everything out there like that, even though her present blog is a LOT more generic and sanitized than her old blog, she's doing herself no favors.

Muffy, I think you really have Mrs. E. pegged here.... especially the part I've bolded. (and incidentally you've finally crystallized for me precisely what it is that I find so dang infuriating about the woman :evil: ) And although I think you're right about the kids' test scores being the holy grail for the school district, I also wholeheartedly encourage TabbyTiger to continue to dialog with the school district. Mrs. E. can be cited and their homeschool possibly put on probation for violating any of the homeschool regulations- and it certainly sounds as though she isn't in compliance with several areas of the regs. The folks in the district office are humans just like the rest of us, and (in my experience) they tend to be harder on folks that irritate or provoke them. Since Mrs. E. is pretty much world class irritating and provoking, she might well irritate and/or provoke them when they make contact with her regarding Tabby's report. They then might well clamp down on her homeschool, in spite of the acceptable test scores. It's worth a shot anyway! More power to ya Tabby!

[Kitty]

Another thing I keep thinking about Mrs. E's kids' test scores is that they might be cheating in some way. Like, Mrs. E does give some help during the tests.

Or the only state tests they have to worry about are reading and math- generally at that age that's all there is. And the tests might be easy. As long as the reading and math are in, she doesn't have to worry about pesky things such as social studies and science. Or so she thinks, since test scores are not the most important thing about education.

I don't know how Ohio's (it is Ohio, right?) standardized testing works, I only have experience with North Carolina and some neighboring states.

[jenny_islander]

Our HS students are measured by their test scores, but they take the tests outside the home, as proctored exams. No way to cheat. We are also expected to submit examples of her math and handwriting three times a year. If hers are only measured by how she says they're doing . . . ulp.

[Kitty]

Our HS students are measured by their test scores, but they take the tests outside the home, as proctored exams. No way to cheat. We are also expected to submit examples of her math and handwriting three times a year. If hers are only measured by how she says they're doing . . . ulp.

I took another look at the full code. They don't have to show up to an evil public school or, apparently, anywhere outside the home (as I interpret it). Provided Camilla pays for it, it seems like it could be anywhere, even at home.

She does however have to submit the test results, or a portfolio, or something else.

[Bella99]

I very much doubt she is in compliance with Ohio law. Unless the parent contacts the district or a concerned neighbor informs them, the district has no way of knowing the children are even there. Even if they do know about the children, unless she is required to present the children at their home school, she can fake up anything she wants to pretend to be in compliance. I'd bet she doesn't even bother.

[Muffy]

I realize that I could be wrong, but my sense is that while Mrs. E has a lot of obvious problems and, based upon her own words, mistreats her daughter, a lack of legal compliance with state educational requirements is probably not one of her issues.

Throughout both incarnations of her blog, she periodically mentions portfolios and state tests as though they are just facts of life. I don't think she'd allude to them at all if she wasn't actually following the rules.

Again, I could be wrong. But Mrs. E strikes me as someone who would take pride in the fact that she obeys the law.

[Bella99]

I admit I don't follow her blog, I was drawing my conclusions based on the fact that around here (TX) there is almost no supervision of homeschoolers.

[AnnoDomini]

- Having children engage in dangerous religious rituals ('Spiritual bootcamp');

Maybe I missed some details of that description but what I remember sounded annoying, not dangerous. What am I forgetting?

[Muffy]

I didn't see anything physically dangerous about Mrs. E's "Spiritual Bootcamp" for her kids. But I did think it sounded emotionally abusive. I can't imagine growing up in an environment where my parents are constantly assessing and judging my "heart" and my motives and critiquing whether or not I'm joyous enough about taking care of my little brothers and doing my chores.

Here's the post, from March 2010:

Spiritual Bootcamp for my Older Children

This week my older two children (15 and 11) are starting spiritual boot camp. My husband and I had both noticed that their heart for the Lord was growing a bit cold. Their obedience seemed to be becoming habitual, shallow and "performed." Their service to their family and younger siblings was not wholehearted, as unto the Lord. Their verbal responses, facial expressions, and body language towards my husband, and me, while outwardly respectful and "satisfactory," were lacking in true honor and respect. They seemed to be growing careless of God.

For our children, folks, this is serious DANGER. SERIOUS danger. It is spiritually terminal! The ONLY hope my children have of growing up spiritually strong, of growing up to have life go "well" for them, and to grow up successful (the success God has planned for them), established, stable, and thriving… the only hope for them, as stated in the Bible, is that they honor their father and mother, and obey them. And their learning to do that rests on me, as their parent. When I train them in this "first commandment with promise," I am training them up spiritually to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. As they are growing, I can measure their growing love for the Lord by measuring how they function within our family and how they respond to their parents and siblings. I can train their heart and mind for the Lord by training them first in their heart and mind towards their parents and siblings. That is why the "first commandment with promise" is for children, and it is the commandment that they honor and obey their father and mother. It starts there, and as they grow, it ends in their success! It ends (their childhood) with things being "well" with them!

ANYWAY, knowing that this training ranks above all other types of education or training or academics, my children are being sent to immediate boot camp to get them back on course spiritually. I talked to them both and they both agreed that their hearts had grown cold, and their actions perfunctory and fleshly. I told them it was my first and foremost calling to exhort and train them up for the Lord, and that I was going to do all I could to shepherd them back into God’s best for their life. They understood this (we have been in this spot many times, my friends… this is a continual job! It is never a one-time teaching!)

So, this is what we have been doing/and have planned to do in this spiritual bootcamp. My goal is to revive in their hearts the Biblical truths and principles that are crucial to their spiritual growth and wellbeing. These are the things I am either teaching them, or having them do (and again–we have covered these exact things many times. And will continue to cover them as often as necessary):

1. I am taking all possible time to exhort them from the Scriptures in this area: driving time, meal time, any time. I remind them of God’s commandments, and where their only hope of success lies, and of the goodness and perfection of God and His ways. I appeal to their hearts to choose God’s best, and provoke their desire to follow Him and Him alone.

2. I have lined up some video sermons that I know will exhort them. The ones I currently have on hand that are on the line-up for this week are by Dr. S.M. Davis, and they are titled, How to Lengthen Your Life by Honoring and Obeying, My Son, Give Me Thine Heart, and The Influence of the Older Children on the Younger Ones, and Why Satan Wants Your 1st-Born and What To Do about It. (They have watched these multiple times, and will watch them more hereafter, if needed!) I also have some audio sermons by Norm Wakefield, etc. I am also checking through my written material to see if there is any exhortation they can get through reading. After each sermon, we have lengthy discussions about what they heard, and I also have them write a summary, a personal testimony, and a reflection of their heart’s desires after hearing each message.

3. I am continuing to exhort them to give their hearts fully to their parents and to the serving of their siblings–reminding them that their spiritual strength begins there. I remind them that if they faithfully apply themselves to their role in the family–their commandment to honor and obey–and to serving their family, then God will convert that, when their childhood ends, into full service for Him and fulfill His independent calling in them. I continually exhort these two oldest that I will know they are on the right track spiritually not only when I see their whole heart given over to the honoring of their parents (and reminding them that I will NEVER deserve their honor–it is God they are honoring), but also when I see them take on full responsibility for their younger siblings. I mean, FULL! Now, this does not mean take on full responsibility INSTEAD of me. I maintain my full responsibility for my little ones, but this is the chance my older ones have to learn how to put others first, and not live after the flesh. I exhort them continually to be mindful of the needs of everyone of the family 24/7–exhort them to service and love in the spirit of Christ (how else would I prepare them to one day lead a family of their own? How else would I prepare them to one day be given over to 24/7 serving of the Lord?). I exhort and encourage them to wake up and assess the needs of their family and then take care of them, such as: Watch the clock, and watch what is needed at the time. Do their little brothers need dressed? Fed? Changed? Trained? Guided? Given an example? Baths? Do any chores need done? Is your example solid and sharing the fruit of the spirit? Are you in tune to the special needs of the day? Is anyone (parent or sibling) ill, tired, teething, crabby, stressed, busy? Do you see a need you can fill? A way you can help? As a parent, I have learned to already have these things covered… but it is a blessing when I see my children serving each other and helping. If I go to start a load of laundry, and it has already been started without my guidance, command, or even "chore system," I am helped and blessed, and I know my children are learning responsibility and maturity. If I go to fix lunch for the little guys, or get them bathed and dressed, and one of my older children has selflessly decided to do that, in love, with a heart of service for the Lord, then I know I am training them well. I am training them to choose each day whom they will serve–without my commands, without my guidance, without my checklists and management. I am training them to take spiritual maturity with them into the world to fulfill their own personal calling, and serve the Lord–not themselves.

I am called to raise my children for the Lord. I only get one chance to do this. Before they leave my care, they must be spiritually mature to follow God on their own as one of His sheep. They must have a heart that loves Him first and foremost, and longs to serve Him, and please Him. It starts in the family. That is God’s plan. Families! He didn’t have to create humans as families! But He did. And that is His plan for eternity–for His kingdom.

My friends, we cannot raise our children this way with a few simple lessons. Not with homeschooling, Christian curriculum, church involvement.. Your children will not be raised this way just by checking off that they prayed a prayer of salvation, or mastered all the "character traits."

The only way to raise your children this way is to teach them and train them continually. When you are sitting, when you are standing, when you are walking in the way… (or driving, as the case may be!) It is constant. It is foundational. It is continual. Children are wayward sheep, and fleshly beings. Just like we (parents) are. You have no hope of training your children for the Lord unless you yourself live daily for the Lord–live every moment to serve and to please Him. If you live like this for the Lord, you will obey Him, which means you will exhort and train your children continually, and set the example of loving God, set the example of faith, and of full service to the God and others (the example of Christ), and you will have the discernment to evaluate your children spiritually. If you feel you are lacking in this area, you are most likely lacking yourself in your love and obedience to God (because all else hangs on that!)

If you are not committed to God in this way, and you are not working continually to train your children spiritually, the best you will get is polished behavior from your children, but not a true heart for God.

It doesn’t matter how our children are dressed! (anyone can teach a child how to dress a certain way!), or what words they are trained to say (children can learn to parrot any kinds of words!), or what behaviors they have been trained to perform to perfection (selfish children can perform anything that they perceive will benefit them–at least on the surface!). It doesn’t matter that in your Bible you have written down a date that says what day your child "accepted the Lord."

What matters is their heart for the Lord and that they love Him. God looks on the heart, and for your children, you can look on their hearts, too. I know you know their hearts. What are you willing to do about it? Women have asked me, after seeing the example of my children, what they can "do" to help their child. They think I have some magic trick, or some one-time rule or method. But when I attempt to explain all it takes to train a child for the Lord… it is lost. They are not willing to pay the price. They do not walk daily in love, faith, and service to the Lord (He is not their Lord), and in turn, they are not willing to continually (I mean, CONTINUALLY), set the example, and exhort, and train their children to do the same.

I assess this CONTINUALLY in myself and in my children. In my homeschool, it is my priority. Their spiritual training and exhortation is the only thing I make sure never "falls off the plate." I believe God’s Word, and it assures me that if my children learn to obey Him and love Him first, it will go well for them. It is that simple. It is the only goal I need to have for my children. Not times tables, not grammar, or Latin, or reading through the whole Bible, or Algebra II. You see, if I teach my children to love God first and obey Him, everything else falls into place and goes "well" with my children. Even their academics. My children ALWAYS stay ahead of the curve academically, and I place absolutely no emphasis or effort in this area, it seems, other than making sure the materials are in the house. We always get it done.

When my children are on track spiritually, they are respectful and obedient to their parents, so they not only do what they’re told, but do what they were told before (they KEEP their room clean, they KEEP their chores done without being told, etc.). They serve their family first–and then because the family is all served, then there is PLENTY of time for the schoolwork and play. It all falls into place.

Well, my recruits are getting up for the day. Hup, two, three, four… LET’S GO!

Be encouraged. Be admonished. Be faithful. Be the parent God has called you to be. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength.

[Austin]

Muffy, if I was one of her kids, I think I'd beg her to just shoot me now. :shock:

Can you imagine what must run through those kids' minds when mom says, "Okay, it's time for some spiritual bootcamp!"? I know my first thought would be "fuck me".

[FlorenceHamilton]

I struggle with ADHD and Tourettes Syndrome, too. This kid's life is already miserable- because ADHD is 'character deficit disorder'. I can only imagine what these people think of Tourettes- another character flaw to grab attention and test the parent! FUCK THEM. My sane, non-fundie parents, when they noticed my tics, TOOK ME TO A FUCKING DOCTOR and paid for all sorts of tests ON MY BRAIN and helped me cope. No, an ADHD kid's brain develops differently than that of a 'neurotypical' child's, and Tourettes is in fact very similar to OCD. He can't control that little voice in his mind telling him to twitch or blink or clear his throat or yell random, inappropriate things. fucking useless cow. He needs medicine, plus minor dietary changes (for Tourettes, the dietary change helps quite a bit more than medicine) and coping strategies. Not spankings or lickings or switchings or "applied correction." Horrible fucking bitch.

She doesn't seem to understand that the reason people are so shocked, and the reason she can't 'correct' her children when someone walks in, is because SHE IS AN ABUSIVE CUNT AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. I'm surprised someone in her church hasn't called CPS on her worthless ass.

Amen sister!

[emmiedahl]

I think she probably beats her children and knows better than to go into details on a public blog. I also think that her homeschooling techniques are shoddy, second-rate crap. You can get a shoddy, second rate education at a public school as well. So let the school authorities decide if the education is par for the area and whether to intervene. I'm glad someone called. At the very least, Mrs. E is no longer off their radar.

[Muffy]

Austin said,

Muffy, if I was one of her kids, I think I'd beg her to just shoot me now.

Can you imagine what must run through those kids' minds when mom says, "Okay, it's time for some spiritual bootcamp!"? I know my first thought would be "fuck me".

Hahahaha. No kidding!

I really do wonder what her kids truly think and feel about all this. Seriously. It's actually been haunting my thoughts, imagining what it must be like to be Mrs. E's daughter...to have to live with Mrs. E and have her scrutinizing me and critiquing my spiritual life and whether or not my heart was right, based not only upon whether or not I did the work I was told to do but also upon how well I used my 12-year-old imagination to dream up more work for myself by anticipating the needs of my baby brothers.

And then, when my mother finds me lacking...she writes about it for the world to read. And tells the world how I'm in "spiritual boot camp." Or tells everyone how much I disgust her.

Mrs. E is simply crazy in what she expects out of her kids. And her craziness is all gift-wrapped in God talk. It's really a depressing trainwreck that makes me very mad. :evil:

[Turtle]

What a bitch. Am I reading that right...a "rod of correction" for her 8 month old? So he would sit still in church? That is completely insane. My husband teaches at a religious school, so he sometimes likes to attend mass at the parish if one of his students is singing or reading or getting first communion or what have you. We've always brought our son along. He's three now and I've never needed to fucking smack him in order to get him to sit through a service (or a graduation, wedding or whatever we decide to bring him to).

What horrible associations her children are going to have with religion. They behave perfectly, do everything that is asked of them, and their mother still finds them lacking and uses their religion as the excuse. Their religious worship=getting the shit beat out of you. What a lovely image of God they must have.

[oscar]

I think she probably beats her children and knows better than to go into details on a public blog. I also think that her homeschooling techniques are shoddy, second-rate crap. You can get a shoddy, second rate education at a public school as well. So let the school authorities decide if the education is par for the area and whether to intervene. I'm glad someone called. At the very least, Mrs. E is no longer off their radar.

emmiedahl, Mrs. E's current writing gives me little confidence that she does not physically discipline her children in ways that would be troubling to many people. Her new blog is sanitized compared to her old blog. In her old blog, she wrote about "spanking" and later clarified that she meant physical discipline using a "rod." The post "What I mean by spank" doesn't appear to have been archived by the wayback machine, but in her review of TTUAC, she wrote,

Now, I will say there is one thing I strongly disagree with in the book. Mr. and Mrs. Pearl state in the book, in text or in example, that they will spank with a rod, a switch, a belt, or even other items. I absolutely do not agree with that. The Bible says to correct with a rod, and only with a rod. A rod and a rod alone is the symbol of authority. Whipping off a belt, grabbing a switch, grabbing a spoon or spatula--to me that is dangerous because it allows us parents to act in anger and not discipline in love. If I do not have the rod in my back pocket or sitting on the table beside me (I have an 18-month-old, so it is always necessary to carry my rod!), I take the offending child with me immediately to go get my rod. My children know the rod is the rod, and it is for their correction. The Pearls speak over and over about the importance of consistency, yet they do not use consistency in the use of the rod.

http://web.archive.org/web/200710200312 ... on/227545/

In her post about whining, she writes about hitting her children over trivial things. Although she goes on to discuss areas where she is "discerning" and will not strike her children, it is clear that physical discipline was her default strategy for dealing with unwanted behavior.

My daughter whined at her brother, "Gabe! I was reading that!"

I came right to her! I said, "Please tell me what you just did!"

She said, "I whined at my brother."

I gave her a swat on the back of the leg, and then I said, "You may not read any of your comic books from the library at all this time. You will have to wait until we go to the library next time."

...

A whine in response to being asked to do a particular chore is given an instant spank and then no attention whatsoever. Not even eye contact.

...

For the baby, I am in new territory. I have never trained a toddler fully on this issue since we didn't start training our older children on this until they were about 9 and 4 (now they are 12 and 8). Aram's temper tantrums and fits, I tell him "No! No fuss! and then I give him one swat (because he knows what "No fuss" means) and then he is left completely alone with no attention until he is done.

http://web.archive.org/web/200710200314 ... on/301640/

I find it horrifying that her major disagreement with the Pearls is over the particular implement used to inflict physical pain on a child.

[Mompom]

emmiedahl, Mrs. E's current writing gives me little confidence that she does not physically discipline her children in ways that would be troubling to many people. Her new blog is sanitized compared to her old blog. In her old blog, she wrote about "spanking" and later clarified that she meant physical discipline using a "rod." The post "What I mean by spank" doesn't appear to have been archived by the wayback machine, but in her review of TTUAC, she wrote,

http://web.archive.org/web/200710200312 ... on/227545/

In her post about whining, she writes about hitting her children over trivial things. Although she goes on to discuss areas where she is "discerning" and will not strike her children, it is clear that physical discipline was her default strategy for dealing with unwanted behavior.

http://web.archive.org/web/200710200314 ... on/301640/

I find it horrifying that her major disagreement with the Pearls is over the particular implement used to inflict physical pain on a child.

Wow, just for saying "I was reading that"? Weird.

[emmiedahl]

So her daughter is not allowed to protest when her brother takes her stuff? That is even creepier than the spanking.

[Turtle]

From the archived page linked earlier in this thread:

"I wholeheartedly welcome and embrace all comments from those who think I am wrong and oppose spanking in any form.

First, I will leap for joy because my reward is great in heaven:

"Blessed are ye when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and LEAP FOR JOY; for behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." Luke 6:22-23

Then, I will pray for you and bless you, and thank God for the opportunity to do so...(and think twice before you post, because ALL my prayers get answered).

"But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you," Matthew 5:44

Then, I will delete your comment."

First of all, I'm no biblical scholar, but I don't think "son of man" is generally thought to refer to spanking your kids. Second, is she going to pray to God that I start smacking my kids or something? And then the threat about her prayers always being answered...wtf?

My heart hurts for her kids. From reading over the link posted, it seems that her kids were older when the whining incident occured. How degrading.

[ceg045]

So her daughter is not allowed to protest when her brother takes her stuff? That is even creepier than the spanking.

Seriously. In my book, whining is prolonged, over-the-top complaining about something ultimately trivial. If her son took her daughter's book while she was reading it and the daughter dared to (horror of horrors) assert herself, I don't define that as whining at all.

[Muffy]

ceg045 said,

In my book, whining is prolonged, over-the-top complaining about something ultimately trivial. If her son took her daughter's book while she was reading it and the daughter dared to (horror of horrors) assert herself, I don't define that as whining at all.

I think this is precisely right.

And that is why Mrs. E's thoughts about her children are so particularly alarming. Her understanding of what I'd (as a fairly conservative Bible-believing Christian) consider normal childhood bumps in the road seems totally over-the-top "off."

[Letgo]

I have been at a church that reaches out to families with special needs children. There are people with autism, Down Syndrome, CP, ADHD, some in wheelchairs, and so on. The pastor mentions occasionally that it might get a little loud at times, but "we love hearing our children" and he is sure they are just enjoying the service. And this is a Reformed church. Forcing a baby to sit perfectly still would not go over well.