Quiverfull Mom Expresses "Disgust" For 12-Year-Old Daughter

[Muffy]

To be fair to this whackjob woman, I believe she may be alluding to the replies she got via Facebook. I'd post her Facebook name, but I think it's against our rules, and the Facebook conversation popped up in her Comments anyway.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that she was faking having had comments on her post - just that she apparently had heard, one way or another, from at least a few people, which made me glad. It's good that she got feedback. I hope she takes it to heart this time...unlike when she posted about "Spiritual Boot Camp" for her kids, got a bunch of responses begging her to lighten up on them, and then responded by locking down her blog to further comments from anonymous readers.

[Kitty]

As someone who suffers from Tourettes Syndrome, this makes me very very angry and emotional. Hopefully this woman acknowledges the disease, or that kid's life is going ot be very miserable indeed. I'm going to stop thinking about it before I start crying...

I struggle with ADHD and Tourettes Syndrome, too. This kid's life is already miserable- because ADHD is 'character deficit disorder'. I can only imagine what these people think of Tourettes- another character flaw to grab attention and test the parent! FUCK THEM. My sane, non-fundie parents, when they noticed my tics, TOOK ME TO A FUCKING DOCTOR and paid for all sorts of tests ON MY BRAIN and helped me cope. No, an ADHD kid's brain develops differently than that of a 'neurotypical' child's, and Tourettes is in fact very similar to OCD. He can't control that little voice in his mind telling him to twitch or blink or clear his throat or yell random, inappropriate things. fucking useless cow. He needs medicine, plus minor dietary changes (for Tourettes, the dietary change helps quite a bit more than medicine) and coping strategies. Not spankings or lickings or switchings or "applied correction." Horrible fucking bitch.

She doesn't seem to understand that the reason people are so shocked, and the reason she can't 'correct' her children when someone walks in, is because SHE IS AN ABUSIVE CUNT AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. I'm surprised someone in her church hasn't called CPS on her worthless ass.

[persuaded]

A mother recently emailed me, after reading somewhere on my blog that we have trained our baby to sit in church, and she asked me how I did it. After I typed her a response, I realized I had a great blog entry and I definitely wanted to add it to this journal as part of the wonderful journey on which God has led us!

It was quite an experience and a challenge to train the baby to sit in church, but we know that it was God's best. We want all our children to love church services and Pastor's teaching and authority. If they are trained and raised right, church is an exciting and fun thing because they have grown to love God, and the Word of God. We have been met with a lot of misunderstanding (and even some hostility), but God continues to make it very clear to us to stand for what we believe in--for exactly what He has shown us to do.

So for the baby, we started at about 8 months old--as soon as we realized he understood what "no" meant. We resolved to hold him still in our arms with a gentle but firm restraint so he knew that moving, getting down, playing, touching things, etc. was not an option (just like riding in a car seat! They don't get out because it's not an option!). Our arms became his "church car seat." Any fuss was met with a loving but firm whispered "No! Church! No fuss!" in his ear and a light tap on the legs to let him know we were serious. As soon as his fussing got too loud, we removed him from the sanctuary to a private place (a back room, an office), but as soon as we got to the room, he received a real spank (click here to read a full description of how and when I spank so that your imagination doesn't run away with you) that stung a little with the words, "No fuss! Church!" Then, if he cried and wailed, we continued (still in the private room) to hold him on our lap in his "church carseat" position. If he continued to cry, about every 10 minutes, he would get another little tap and a firm, "No! No fuss! This is church!" No matter what, during church time, he was never allowed down or rewarded with play time for his fussiness. When we were criticized, we would respond, "Babies can sit in a car seat for over an hour. He can sit for church." Our Pastor once retorted (because of all the pressure and complaints he received about us), "Well, in a car seat they can fall asleep." I said, "He can fall asleep in church if he wants to!" We would then practice at home using video sermons (hoping to speed up the process for the sake of everyone at church who thought we were crazy). I would sit with him on my lap with our correction rod in one hand. I would point to the TV and say, "Church! Shhh! Pastor! You sit." If he wiggled or fussed, I would immediately say "No! No fuss! Church, and then give a little sting with the rod. I would then say, "You listen to Pastor. Shh!"

I always try to say "No!" before the spank so he has the chance to comply and he hears the command first.

How did it go? Well, the baby is now 21 months old. It has been about one year since we have started training. We have never once given up or let our goal slide. We have tried to be 100% consistent (sometimes our training was interrupted due to the presence of another church member in our back office or from someone coming and going to the restroom). But now the baby will sit through a 1.5 hour service. He has grown to LOVE church. This last Sunday night, we got there early, so I let him play in the nursery and go potty. At 5 minutes before six, I said, "Come on! It's time for church!" He yelled, "Church! Church!" and he ran out the nursery door to the sanctuary. I let him mill about through the people and interact with the adults, and then our pianist started playing. As soon as he heard that, he started running down the aisle telling everyone, "Church! Church! Church!" He saw Pastor coming down the aisle and he pointed and yelled, "Pastor! Pastor! Pastor!" (He was excited that church was starting). He then climbed onto OUR pew (the place we always sit--he found it on his own), grabbed a hymn book, and started singing at the top of his lungs to the music that the pianist was playing. He was doing church! I sat down and motioned to my lap and said, "Get over here! Church is starting! He climbed up and I put on my "church carseat" hold, and we started church. My hold is still firm even though he's getting the hang of it--because he still tests the boundaries. My boundaries will not move!

Now, my child is still a strong-willed boy. He does perfectly well until about 15 minutes into the sermon, then he tries to twist or fuss. I tell him "No! Church!" in his ear and he usually stops. Sometimes he still tries to test the boundaries. If he fusses for more than 3 seconds, I whisper, "Do you need a spank?" That usually stops him. If he insists and fusses for 5 or more seconds, I immediately take him out into a back office, give him a good spank that has a sting, (follow this link to see a specific description of how I spank my children) immediately put him back into his "church carseat" position, and I say firmly, "Church! No fuss! You be quiet!" These days, when I take him out, I can spank and within 30 seconds he is properly corrected and happy, and I can usually sit back in the service for the entire rest of the service with just that one correction. We are now moving on to training him to not touch our pen or Bible as we take notes, and teaching him to sit on the pew independently.

Here's the link to the archived post: http://web.archive.org/web/200710200313 ... on/282061/

Here's what stands out to me in this passage (besides the horror of it, of course)... in the first sentence that I have bolded, she states that her baby will sit for an hour an a half during church. But later on she says that he will only sit for fifteen minutes. Obviously there is a huge disconnect in this woman's brain. She's flat out contradicting herself and it's not even registering.

[Vex]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants someone to beat sense into Camilla, literally, if needed (with a switch that stings and a loving heart, of course).

I forgot to add, I really agree with Muffy's post about her bad theology and her lack of understanding when it comes to Christian character. The bible commands Christ's followers to not draw attention to themselves, to be humble and modest and to win people's hearts through good deeds. Fundies claim to follow the bible's teachings, and yet the blogosphere is full of "Christian" ladies whose husbands preach on street corners (Jesus was only talking about people who preach on street corners for attention), who don't do any sort of charity work (I'm being a 'light' by having a million kids and staying home), who actively hate and judge others (the bible only says NOT to judge 3 times, out of the 7 times it's mentioned) and so on and so forth. The words 'cognitive dissonance' come to mind again.

To answer AnnoDomini, it's a custom title that I asked to be added. People wirh their names in dark blue have donated money to FJ, and if you donate over a certain amount you get a custom title.

[dairyfreelife]

This is beyond terrible. I feel so sorry for the children and especially the daughter. I think Debi Pearl is almost a saint compared to this woman. :shock:

All I have to say is she ought to read Luke 18:9-14. The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.

NIV

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.â€

Or KJV if she prefers:

"And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

[Vex]

I've just started reading a book called 'Breaking Their Will: Shedding light on religious child maltreatment', and early on there is the following list of ways in which religious child maltreatment manifests itself. My comments are in brackets.

- Justifying abusive physical punishment with religious texts or doctrine (Cam and her 'implements of correction', spare the rod and spoil the child);

- Having children engage in dangerous religious rituals ('Spiritual bootcamp');

- Taking advantage of religious authority to abuse children and procure their silence (I believe they're talking about priests, but Cam uses scripture to justify her tyranny to her kids and forbids them to complain or whine, thus procuring their silence);

- Failing to provide children needed medical care due to a belief in divine intervention (She does this with herself, so it's entirely possible she would do the same to her kids. Her daughter seems to need treatment for depression and she isn't getting any);

- Terrifying childeren with relivious concepts, such as an angry and punitive god, eternal damnation, or posession by the devil or by demons (speaks for itself, her god is a vengeful, angry god);

- Making children feel guilty and shameful by telling them they are sinful (Cam lives for this);

- Neglecting children's safety by allowing them to spend time with religious authorities without scrutinising the authorities' backgrounds (she isn't guilty of this, but she takes it too far the other way - won't let her kids have any time without her around);

- Inculcating children with religious ideas (she does this 24/7. Need I bring up bootcamp again?);

- Failing to acknowledge or report child abuse or neglect to proterct the image of a religion or religious group (again, she isn't actually guilty of this. Her husband is, though).

I thought that it was alarming how accurately most of that list describes her behaviour.

[Muffy]

In light of everything we have discussed about Mrs. E's most recent post, where she expresses "disgust" for her 12-year-old daughter's lack of genuine joy for household chores and taking care of her 3 little brothers, I thought this post from Mrs. E's previous blog is especially interesting. Seems to me Mrs. E has not yet dealt with her flaw of being "too controlling"...

Growing in Truth Feb. 28, 2007

Confessing My Faults

You may have picked up in my last post that it's humility season for me. I'm in God's refining fire. I was prompted last week in my journal to list my faults so that I may know them and be ready to confess them--whichever ones to whomever they apply at whatever opportunity God presents. I just wanted to be ready. But I'm making a blanket confession here for whomever God brings by this entry.

My husband will say that I am controlling and complaining. I didn't have to ask. The last two times we had an argument, the first time he fired at me, "All you ever do is complain." The second time he said, "You are still controlling." Ouch! I do know that he will say i am not remotely like I used to be, but he still discerns times when I subtly manipulate or gripe, or openly try to manipulate, or have a discontented spirit. Lord, I am so sorry! Please do whatever it takes to correct me and refine me in this area!

My children say that I can be inconsistent, undependable, angry, insensitive, and a bad listener (yes, I asked them!). My oldest son gets frustrated when I get diverted from an outlined plan for the day or the week and I don't bring it to fruitiion. It makes him feel out of control. I still have my moments when I speak in anger and frustration to correct my children--I vow to always ask their forgiveness with a repentant heart and seek to claim a 100% victory in this area (God has been working!). Gabe, who is 12, I'm not always sensitive and patient with him, and I don't often have patience to listen. Sometimes I automatically perceive my children to just be mindlessly babbling or rambling, when in reality, if I would just stop to listen, I would hear that they were not. The truth is, sometimes I just get to busy and automatically assume whatever I am doing is more important.

Some of my closest friends, as well as some mere acquaintances, have let me know that I can appear condescending and like a know-it-all. I know God is working on me in this area. He really has me in humility boot camp at the moment, and it is helping with my countenance and my attitude. I have noticed huge changes lately in how people are responding to me. I do know that sometimes people who have thought I was being condescending have come back to me later to say it was really their own heart being convicted. But, I do know that over the past four years, I have been so excited about all the work God has done in my life, and so excited about all His wonderful truth, I was many, many, many times over-eager to share my testimonies and not sensitive at all to whether or not someone wanted to hear them. That is DEFINITELY obnoxious and prideful. God--please keep working on me and don't give up! I give you permission to do whatever it takes to make me humble!

And as for me, what do I think my faults are? I still struggle in the area of spending too much money, being a good steward of time, money, property, selfishness (the what about me attitude creeps in sometimes and I have to check myself), and I tend to be over-initiating and not have enough caution when moving forward. I have been known to jump ahead of the Lord. I can be impatient and chomp at the bit when I get excited about an idea and don't always discern if I am moving forward in the Lord's timing (i.e.--I am always dabbling in ideas for writing curriculum, books, business ideas, etc.... many of them end up being a waste of time because I am jumping the gun on God's plan for my life).

I definitely still have many moments where I lack self-control in eating, how I spend my time, how I spend money. I have grown in this area. My clothing size and health are a testimony--but I can still be quite a bad example to my children. I am still known to sneak a cookie when the Holy Spirit has certainly pricked my conscience not to do it!

I also do not feel I have 100% integrity. Am I truly behind closed doors the person I portray to be to my husband, my children, my church family, and my friends? I still have my "hidden" moments of laziness, indulgence, and weakness. I am praying right now--at the top of my list--for God to give me integrity. Like Joseph had.

I also don't feel I have a clear conscience and a good name. As a teenager I was very rebellious and selfish. As a young adult, I was even worse. I had no respect for anyone and thought only of myself. I feel like I wronged my friends by my example and encouragement and selfishness, and I wronged almost everyone I ever worked for--from babysitting jobs to office work to my clients when I had my own business--because I never worked for them as I would have unto the Lord. I "stole" from those people what they were owed from me (because of what they paid me)--and I have NO idea how to make it right. Here I am with this blog on the internet, under my real name, with a real picture of my family, but someone who used to know me back then could be so offended--because I was such an offensive person! I am so truly sorry and I would do anything to make things right (even though it scares me to say that). I pray that God gives me opportunity to, one by one, make things right with anyone I have ever wronged.

Well, that's a little more about the inside of me. I'm sure I was way too generous and easy on myself. God, I give you permission to work in me however you want. I beg you to refine me and correct me. And i hope you know, in my heart, the endless gratitude I feel for Your unending mercy and goodness.

While on the surface this whole post can make it sound like Mrs. E is actually admitting her faults, if we look at it carefully, she spends a lot more time defending herself and explaining how other people's observations - especially those from her friends - aren't actually accurate...or that her friends just misunderstood. Look at this paragraph:

Some of my closest friends, as well as some mere acquaintances, have let me know that I can appear condescending and like a know-it-all. I know God is working on me in this area. He really has me in humility boot camp at the moment, and it is helping with my countenance and my attitude. I have noticed huge changes lately in how people are responding to me. I do know that sometimes people who have thought I was being condescending have come back to me later to say it was really their own heart being convicted. But, I do know that over the past four years, I have been so excited about all the work God has done in my life, and so excited about all His wonderful truth, I was many, many, many times over-eager to share my testimonies and not sensitive at all to whether or not someone wanted to hear them. That is DEFINITELY obnoxious and prideful.

Her entire blog (especially her first blog!) was all about being a condescending know-it-all. But although she mentions it as something her friends say might be one of her flaws, she quickly goes on to say that people have come back to her and said that when they thought she was being condescending, they were wrong - it was actually their own hearts being convicted. And then she further whitewashes her condescending know-it-all behavior by describing it as her just being so excited about all the work God has done in her life...and being too eager to share her testimonies.

Bleh.

I think this post is another good example of how self-deceived Mrs. E was (or is, depending on how you look at it). She thinks she's writing out a list of her flaws as some exercise for "Humility Boot Camp." But then instead of showing real humility by agreeing with others' assessments of her flaws, she offers up a rationalization for why she wasn't actually doing anything wrong.

[Austin]

Muffy, I agree with all of your thoughts on this post of Mrs. E's, and wow - I don't think "humility bootcamp" helped her one bit. Maybe she needs to sign up for that before she makes her kids go back to "obedience with a smile bootcamp" or whatever it was.

A lot of her so-called flaws are the type you hear people say when you ask them in a job interview what their biggest weakness is. "I'm a perfectionist", "I have too much initiative", and "I tend to control because I am a natural-born leader". Stuff like that.

I dont' think any of these things are Mrs. E's biggest problems. I think her biggest problem is that she has a serious, untreated mental health disorder (or maybe a couple).

[Muffy]

Austin said,

Muffy, I agree with all of your thoughts on this post of Mrs. E's, and wow - I don't think "humility bootcamp" helped her one bit. Maybe she needs to sign up for that before she makes her kids go back to "obedience with a smile bootcamp" or whatever it was.

A lot of her so-called flaws are the type you hear people say when you ask them in a job interview what their biggest weakness is. "I'm a perfectionist", "I have too much initiative", and "I tend to control because I am a natural-born leader". Stuff like that.

I dont' think any of these things are Mrs. E's biggest problems. I think her biggest problem is that she has a serious, untreated mental health disorder (or maybe a couple).

Yeah, I thought the same thing - her "take" on her own flaws reminded me of what a Miss America contestant would say about being a perfectionist. :D

I was wondering, does anyone else join me in making the observation that the rabid fundie/Quiverfull approach to life seems to hold special appeal for women who do struggle with mental illness? I know that mood disorders are fairly common everywhere, but a lot of these women who blog about their "homekeeping" and their wifely submission and their homeschooling and their multiple practically-perfect Christian kids sure seem to exhibit more issues than the average woman I know. I don't even think it's necessarily a Bible-based Christianity thing, either. I am a Christian and part of a fairly conservative Evangelical church, and I know LOTS of women who embrace the Christian faith but don't have issues with viewing their children suspiciously and thinking they need beatings to rid them of every sin-tainted bad habit. Through Bible study groups and whatnot, I've interacted with a lot of other wives and moms who subscribe to fairly conservative beliefs about morality and even wifely submission...and yet their families are part of the "real world" (kids in school, moms who work outside the home, dads who enjoy partnering with their wives to make decisions) and they don't seem to struggle with the level of obvious mental illness that a lot of these women in the Quiverfull movement struggle with.

There's a whole lot about Mrs. E's blog that is disturbing, but as a Christian myself, what I find the worst is that her Gothard/Quiverfull approach to Christianity has affirmed her controlling and abusive behavior, which in her unmedicated mind seems to validate her paranoid negative views of her children, leading to raising them way too harshly and restrictively.

I guess the question might be, what came first? What's the cause, and what's the effect? Are women with tendencies toward depression or compulsive and controlling behavior more naturally attracted to the Quiverfull lifestyle? Or does embracing the Quiverfull lifestyle bring about the compulsive and controlling behavior? I've read Free Jinger for a couple of years, now, and I don't remember this question being discussed before.

[BoomerLynn]

Austin said,

Yeah, I thought the same thing - her "take" on her own flaws reminded me of what a Miss America contestant would say about being a perfectionist. :D

I was wondering, does anyone else join me in making the observation that the rabid fundie/Quiverfull approach to life seems to hold special appeal for women who do struggle with mental illness? I know that mood disorders are fairly common everywhere, but a lot of these women who blog about their "homekeeping" and their wifely submission and their homeschooling and their multiple practically-perfect Christian kids sure seem to exhibit more issues than the average woman I know. I don't even think it's necessarily a Bible-based Christianity thing, either. I am a Christian and part of a fairly conservative Evangelical church, and I know LOTS of women who embrace the Christian faith but don't have issues with viewing their children suspiciously and thinking they need beatings to rid them of every sin-tainted bad habit. Through Bible study groups and whatnot, I've interacted with a lot of other wives and moms who subscribe to fairly conservative beliefs about morality and even wifely submission...and yet their families are part of the "real world" (kids in school, moms who work outside the home, dads who enjoy partnering with their wives to make decisions) and they don't seem to struggle with the level of obvious mental illness that a lot of these women in the Quiverfull movement struggle with.

There's a whole lot about Mrs. E's blog that is disturbing, but as a Christian myself, what I find the worst is that her Gothard/Quiverfull approach to Christianity has affirmed her controlling and abusive behavior, which in her unmedicated mind seems to validate her paranoid negative views of her children, leading to raising them way too harshly and restrictively.

I guess the question might be, what came first? What's the cause, and what's the effect? Are women with tendencies toward depression or compulsive and controlling behavior more naturally attracted to the Quiverfull lifestyle? Or does embracing the Quiverfull lifestyle bring about the compulsive and controlling behavior? I've read Free Jinger for a couple of years, now, and I don't remember this question being discussed before.

This actually makes a lot of sense. This movement (or whatever you wish to call it) gives order and control to someone who may otherwise feel like they have none. Someone who suffers from low self-esteem and/or depression may enjoy the constant validation and praise she would get as "the perfect, Godly, submissive wife." Someone with OCD may thrive in an environment where the house is always spotless, the children perfectly behaved little robots, etc. Then again, I could be completely wrong as I am not a professional psychiatrist.

[oscar]

I agree with the above reasons why the fundie lifestyle may hold particular appeal to some women with mental health disorders. Worse, as these women find that following strict rules and guidelines help them function better day-to-day, they may come to believe that God has rewarded their faith by curing their illness. If their community prioritizes appearance over substance, they may receive positive reinforcement for damaging and dangerous behavior that superficially appears to line up with community values. It's like quicksand.

This is the thing that bothers me so much about fundie lifestyle advice. People have told me not to get so worked up over it, because I can just take what's useful and ignore the rest. But some people, like Mrs. E, seem to have a lack of discernment and unhealthy tendencies that are only reinforced by this material. It provides them with a context where they can become more horrible and dangerous to their own families and other, vulnerable members of the community.

People like Mrs. E need real help. They do not need people like the Pearls to take advantage of their distorted thinking and sell them lifestyle advice that urges them to harm themselves and others around them.

[Muffy]

BoomerLynn said,

This movement (or whatever you wish to call it) gives order and control to someone who may otherwise feel like they have none.

Oscar said,

This is the thing that bothers me so much about fundie lifestyle advice. People have told me not to get so worked up over it, because I can just take what's useful and ignore the rest. But some people, like Mrs. E, seem to have a lack of discernment and unhealthy tendencies that are only reinforced by this material. It provides them with a context where they can become more horrible and dangerous to their own families and other, vulnerable members of the community.

I think these two statements go a long way toward explaining both the "why" and the "what" of the disturbing aspects of Mrs. E's blogging efforts.

I do get the sense that Mrs. E saw her embrace of something akin to Gothardism as the way that "God" healed her of her mental illnesses. She even says so in one of her early posts on the archived blog. Her efforts at clamping down and exerting control over her household and her kids made her feel better about her out-of-control thoughts, perhaps.

And yes, Oscar - I am so with you on being riled up by the extreme fundie blogs, particularly those who take on a teacherly tone and dole out advice. I was just reading through another thread, where some lurking fundies came out and introduced themselves, and I was thinking that I probably would be considered "fundie lite" by some of the posters here. I agree theologically with some of the more foundational aspects of what Mrs. E believes. But that is precisely why I find her Quiverfull stuff so alarming, and why her blogs have troubled me as much as they have. If you look at the comments people left on her earlier (and much more controversial) posts, she did get quite a lot of positive feedback from women thanking her for the "encouragement." People were looking to Mrs. E's blog for encouragement and then taking her "God told me's" and applying them to their own lives. How utterly alarming!

[emmiedahl]

I think the Pearls really encourage mentally ill people to act out against their children. Things like pulling a baby's hair and pushing toddlers head first into water are cruel and you have to have a little bit of crazy to do it. The whole "keep punishing until they are whimpering masses of penitence" parenting is not just bad parenting, it is really controlling and evil. A normal, sane fundie might read those books and "take the good while rejecting the bad", but a mentally ill person is going to see it as justification for acting out.

Her bipolar illness is not cured; she has merely found an ideology that encourages her not to even try to act in a functional manner. It's like telling a schizophrenic that the voices are real and you should do what they say. That's not a cure, although they might feel cured.

[NurseNell]

I think the Pearls really encourage mentally ill people to act out against their children. Things like pulling a baby's hair and pushing toddlers head first into water are cruel and you have to have a little bit of crazy to do it..

They recommend pulling a baby's hair? Why, what's the purpose? And what's the reason for pushing toddler's heads into water? So you can practice near drowning rescue? I really want to read this book but certainly don't want to give them a penny, will see if the library has it.

[Koala]

" I automatically perceive my children to just be mindlessly babbling or rambling,"

Says the Queen of mindless babbling and rambling.

[emmiedahl]

They recommend pulling a baby's hair? Why, what's the purpose? And what's the reason for pushing toddler's heads into water? So you can practice near drowning rescue? I really want to read this book but certainly don't want to give them a penny, will see if the library has it.

The hair-pulling is if a baby bites, and they are talking about a really small infant. If you think that is bad, you'll love how they make a small crawling baby afraid of the stairs--it involves plumbing line if I recall correctly. The water thing is to make them afraid of water. The Pearls apparently have a large pond in sight of their house and did not want to have to, you know, watch their toddlers. You can find the book free online here: achristianhome.org/to_train_up_a_child.htm. It's a short easy read.

[thoughtful]

They recommend pulling a baby's hair? Why, what's the purpose? And what's the reason for pushing toddler's heads into water? So you can practice near drowning rescue? I really want to read this book but certainly don't want to give them a penny, will see if the library has it.

I believe this is the entire old edition -- not sure if and how it differs from the newer one, other than the cover.

http://www.achristianhome.org/to_train_up_a_child.htm

ETA - should have read ahead -- I see emmiedahl beat me to it (you should pardon the expression).

[thoughtful]

Her bipolar illness is not cured; she has merely found an ideology that encourages her not to even try to act in a functional manner. It's like telling a schizophrenic that the voices are real and you should do what they say. That's not a cure, although they might feel cured.

This is a great description of a horrible thing.

[Trynn]

I struggle with ADHD and Tourettes Syndrome, too. This kid's life is already miserable- because ADHD is 'character deficit disorder'. I can only imagine what these people think of Tourettes- another character flaw to grab attention and test the parent! FUCK THEM. My sane, non-fundie parents, when they noticed my tics, TOOK ME TO A FUCKING DOCTOR and paid for all sorts of tests ON MY BRAIN and helped me cope. No, an ADHD kid's brain develops differently than that of a 'neurotypical' child's, and Tourettes is in fact very similar to OCD. He can't control that little voice in his mind telling him to twitch or blink or clear his throat or yell random, inappropriate things. fucking useless cow. He needs medicine, plus minor dietary changes (for Tourettes, the dietary change helps quite a bit more than medicine) and coping strategies. Not spankings or lickings or switchings or "applied correction." Horrible fucking bitch.

She doesn't seem to understand that the reason people are so shocked, and the reason she can't 'correct' her children when someone walks in, is because SHE IS AN ABUSIVE CUNT AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. I'm surprised someone in her church hasn't called CPS on her worthless ass.

What sort of dietary changes? Never heard of this. Medicine for me was just bad side affects. And shouting out swear words is actually copralalia, which most TS sufferers don't have. Unless you mean shouting out random words in general, cause I've had to do that, though they're usually so garbled no one can tell what I'm saying.

[Muffy]

One more random silly little Mrs. E-related thing I've wondered about for a long time -

What's up with the theme/design of her blog? It's so strange! I mean, there's something sort of almost nightmarish about the artwork in the heading, what with the shadowy figure that to me totally looks like a guy wearing an early-60s-era hat, dancing in a graveyard. Or maybe Shaggy from Scooby Doo, floating up out of the smoke from a chimney.

Every time I look at Mrs. E's blog (homeschoolblogger.com/mrse/), I always wonder what made her choose that theme, and what she thinks it represents.

[tabbytiger]

Hi,

Does anyone know the name of the town/county in which the Andersons live? Feel free to PM me if you prefer not to post it publicly. Specifically I would like to know what school district they reside in. By Ohio code, the superintendent has a responsibility to ensure that the children are receiving a proper education, so I would like to send him/her the unacceptable curriculum Camilla posted.

Ohio code: http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/3301-34

Excerpts:

3301-34-03 Notification.

(A) A parent who elects to provide home education shall supply the following information to the superintendent:

(1) School year for which notification is made;

(2) Name of parent, address, and telephone number (telephone number optional);

(3) Name, address, and telephone number (telephone number optional) of person(s) who will be teaching the child the subjects set forth in paragraph (A)(5) of this rule, if other than the parent;

(4) Full name and birthdate of child to be educated at home;

(5) Assurance that home education will include the following, except that home education shall not be required to include any concept, topic, or practice that is in conflict with the sincerely held religious beliefs of the parent:

(a) Language, reading, spelling, and writing:

(b) Geography, history of the United States and Ohio; and national, state, and local government;

© Mathematics;

(d) Science;

(e) Health;

(f) Physical education;

(g) Fine arts, including music; and

(h) First aid, safety, and fire prevention.

(6) Brief outline of the intended curriculum for the current year. Such outline is for informational purposes only.

(7) List of textbooks, correspondence courses, commercial curricula, or other basic teaching materials that the parent intends to use for home education. Such list is for informational purposes only.

(8) Assurance that the child will be provided a minimum of nine hundred hours of home education each school year.

And:

(1) If the superintendent, upon review of the information, determines that it is in compliance with all requirements set forth in paragraph (A) of this rule, the superintendent shall notify the parent(s) in writing that the child is excused from school attendance for the remainder of the current school year.

(2) If the superintendent, upon review of the information, determines that it is not in compliance with all of the requirements set forth in paragraph (A) of this rule, the superintendent shall state in writing the specific respects in which the information is incomplete. The superintendent shall provide the parent an option within fourteen calendar days, to:

(a) Supply additional information in writing, or

(b) Arrange a conference at which the requested information can be supplied.

(D) If the additional information supplied either in writing or in conference is not in accordance with the requirements set forth in paragraph (A) of this rule; or notwithstanding the fact that the parent has complied with the provisions of this rule, if the superintendent has substantial evidence that the minimum educational requirements of paragraph (A) of this rule will not be met, the superintendent shall declare his or her intent to deny the excuse.

[tabbytiger]

Got it, thanks! On the train home from work, but will send it tonight. I don't expect any response but will let you all know if I get one.

[emmiedahl]

Let the persecution begin :)

[notsocommon]

church

A mother recently emailed me, after reading somewhere on my blog that we have trained our baby to sit in church, and she asked me how I did it. After I typed her a response, I realized I had a great blog entry and I definitely wanted to add it to this journal as part of the wonderful journey on which God has led us!

It was quite an experience and a challenge to train the baby to sit in church, but we know that it was God's best. We want all our children to love church services and Pastor's teaching and authority. If they are trained and raised right, church is an exciting and fun thing because they have grown to love God, and the Word of God. We have been met with a lot of misunderstanding (and even some hostility), but God continues to make it very clear to us to stand for what we believe in--for exactly what He has shown us to do.

So for the baby, we started at about 8 months old--as soon as we realized he understood what "no" meant. We resolved to hold him still in our arms with a gentle but firm restraint so he knew that moving, getting down, playing, touching things, etc. was not an option (just like riding in a car seat! They don't get out because it's not an option!). Our arms became his "church car seat." Any fuss was met with a loving but firm whispered "No! Church! No fuss!" in his ear and a light tap on the legs to let him know we were serious. As soon as his fussing got too loud, we removed him from the sanctuary to a private place (a back room, an office), but as soon as we got to the room, he received a real spank (click here to read a full description of how and when I spank so that your imagination doesn't run away with you) that stung a little with the words, "No fuss! Church!" Then, if he cried and wailed, we continued (still in the private room) to hold him on our lap in his "church carseat" position. If he continued to cry, about every 10 minutes, he would get another little tap and a firm, "No! No fuss! This is church!" No matter what, during church time, he was never allowed down or rewarded with play time for his fussiness. When we were criticized, we would respond, "Babies can sit in a car seat for over an hour. He can sit for church." Our Pastor once retorted (because of all the pressure and complaints he received about us), "Well, in a car seat they can fall asleep." I said, "He can fall asleep in church if he wants to!" We would then practice at home using video sermons (hoping to speed up the process for the sake of everyone at church who thought we were crazy). I would sit with him on my lap with our correction rod in one hand. I would point to the TV and say, "Church! Shhh! Pastor! You sit." If he wiggled or fussed, I would immediately say "No! No fuss! Church, and then give a little sting with the rod. I would then say, "You listen to Pastor. Shh!"

I always try to say "No!" before the spank so he has the chance to comply and he hears the command first.

How did it go? Well, the baby is now 21 months old. It has been about one year since we have started training. We have never once given up or let our goal slide. We have tried to be 100% consistent (sometimes our training was interrupted due to the presence of another church member in our back office or from someone coming and going to the restroom). But now the baby will sit through a 1.5 hour service. He has grown to LOVE church. This last Sunday night, we got there early, so I let him play in the nursery and go potty. At 5 minutes before six, I said, "Come on! It's time for church!" He yelled, "Church! Church!" and he ran out the nursery door to the sanctuary. I let him mill about through the people and interact with the adults, and then our pianist started playing. As soon as he heard that, he started running down the aisle telling everyone, "Church! Church! Church!" He saw Pastor coming down the aisle and he pointed and yelled, "Pastor! Pastor! Pastor!" (He was excited that church was starting). He then climbed onto OUR pew (the place we always sit--he found it on his own), grabbed a hymn book, and started singing at the top of his lungs to the music that the pianist was playing. He was doing church! I sat down and motioned to my lap and said, "Get over here! Church is starting! He climbed up and I put on my "church carseat" hold, and we started church. My hold is still firm even though he's getting the hang of it--because he still tests the boundaries. My boundaries will not move!

Now, my child is still a strong-willed boy. He does perfectly well until about 15 minutes into the sermon, then he tries to twist or fuss. I tell him "No! Church!" in his ear and he usually stops. Sometimes he still tries to test the boundaries. If he fusses for more than 3 seconds, I whisper, "Do you need a spank?" That usually stops him. If he insists and fusses for 5 or more seconds, I immediately take him out into a back office, give him a good spank that has a sting, (follow this link to see a specific description of how I spank my children) immediately put him back into his "church carseat" position, and I say firmly, "Church! No fuss! You be quiet!" These days, when I take him out, I can spank and within 30 seconds he is properly corrected and happy, and I can usually sit back in the service for the entire rest of the service with just that one correction. We are now moving on to training him to not touch our pen or Bible as we take notes, and teaching him to sit on the pew independently.

This just makes me sad. It does not have to be this way! Children can be in service without breaking them!

Last Sunday was Children's sabbath at our church and the pastor spoke some on children in service. He said it was a JOY when children interrupted the sermon with their antics. When he looks at the aisle and sees the little ones playing (sometimes not so) quietly it brings life into the service. He loves prayer request time when the littles rise their hand to pray for their gold fish (he makes sure to include goldy in the prayer, too). He likes to let the kids take turns collecting offering or doing other small tasks in service. We even have a designated quiet play area in the back corner where a parent can take a fussy/ wiggly child to play, look at books or be rocked.

We are not FIC, but we have children in our services. No one cares of children babble, coo, cry or blurt out. We laugh when they answer rhetorical questions the pastor poses. No one expects the children to sit perfectly quiet and still like little robots.

I can only imagine what people at my church would do if a parent acted like this woman. It would not be pretty at all. I'd really hate to see this woman's reaction if she were to come into our service and see a two-year old playing with hot wheels on the floor during the sermon...or my ADHD nine-year old squirming around- sometimes flipping around in her chair. What would she think of the severely autistic girl who hums loudly throughout the whole service?

I am so thankful that we found a place where our kid can be a kid and children are seen as a joy instead of a bother.

[VeraAnne]

I think the Pearls really encourage mentally ill people to act out against their children. Things like pulling a baby's hair and pushing toddlers head first into water are cruel and you have to have a little bit of crazy to do it

Beating a child should make any person feel disgusted. The fact that someone could continue to beat their child in spite of the fact that it goes against all parental instincts have to have a few screws loose, imo.