Quiverfull Mom Expresses "Disgust" For 12-Year-Old Daughter

[clibbyjo]

I have a 12 year old daughter and THAT IS HOW THEY ARE!!!!! Mine just got home from 2 back to back sleepovers and she is a sleep deprived manic right now,try dealing with that lady!

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Boys have an incentive to stay

Not really...unless they really want to try to support a huge family with no education. I feel for the boys too--they weren't asked an opinion on life any more than their sisters. The sisters still get the even shorter end of the stick though by having to bear so many kids after raising their siblings.

I look at Josiah Dugger and see nothing but anger in him. What will he get to be? A trash hauler? A septic tank servicer? Those DO pay well when it's your company, but can be just as soul-killing as endless child bearing.

[Muffy]

Browngrl said,

Where is the father in all this? Admittedly I have only read a small portion of her blog but I don't find much about him - it is all about her submitting, loving Jesus and not her husband, forgiving her husband's faults, etc. I wonder what involvement (if any) he has beyond providing sperm and proving the cash for expenses. I don't know his situation but IMO this woman has a mental illness and it is his responsibility to care for his children. Those children are the victims here and he needs to step in. I hope he has done so.

I'd said that I think this family moved from Denver to Indiana, but they are actually now in Ohio. Also, it looks like "Mr. E" runs some sort of business that helps people start up FM radio stations. I found a website where he is selling a book on the subject. So I don't know if he is still also working for a newspaper...if he still has a job out in the "real world" that might provide him with some context for how inappropriate his wife's ramblings and behavior are.

But nonetheless, I hope he does something to intervene and come to his children's rescue, particularly his daughter's.

[AnnoDomini]

Hey, um... what exactly are 'social studies'?

[VeraAnne]

I remember "social studies" as basically history with a focus on different cultures and people.

[Daenerys]

I feel so much more sorry for this girl than most stuck in QF families. The J'Slaves might be raising their younger siblings but at least they have each other for companionship and to help out. This girl is totally alone, with no one to lean on or to help her out. She must be so unbearably lonely, especially considering she wasn't born into this life and knows to some extent how much more the world has to offer.

[AnnoDomini]

I remember "social studies" as basically history with a focus on different cultures and people.

Oh. So, I guess like that period where my mother gave me the Usborne book of World History to read? (I read it over and over. It had lots of pictures and was probably my favourite schoolbook and it's probably still rattling around somewhere, unless it got read/loved to death.)

[NurseNell]

Hey, um... what exactly are 'social studies'?

Back when I was in school it was history before you went to high school. 4th grade social studies was New York state history, 5th grade was European history, 6th grade I don't remember. Geography was part of every year's social studies. 7th grade was New York again, in more depth. 8th grade was U.S. history. We learned more about the cultures and the people, then actual historical events. In high school 1 year of world history, 1 year of American history, and 1 year of geography was required.

[alphaeta08]

My reaction was pretty much the same as everyone else's: she's TWELVE. 12-year-olds suck sometimes even when they have great parents, not that this girl is even doing anything wrong. It never ceases to amaze me that these bitches think it's okay to pass their kids off to their slightly older kids.

[kaetrin]

Is this the same woman who wrote about having "character boot camp" for her two oldest children in which they did nothing but chores and listening to sermons, while she "exhorted" them for hours? Because even though they were both totally obedient, she could just tell that their hearts weren't in it? IIRC, some of her commenters called her out on it, but it doesn't sound like they had any effect.

[Freed]

Oh. So, I guess like that period where my mother gave me the Usborne book of World History to read? (I read it over and over. It had lots of pictures and was probably my favourite schoolbook and it's probably still rattling around somewhere, unless it got read/loved to death.)

You had that one, too? Best history book ever. I was so sad when I found out Mom sold it.

This woman is freakin' insane. The girl is twelve. She needs to be a kid.

[mstee]

This mom sounds paranoid and sick. She readily admits that her daughter acts cheerful and obedient etc., but yet still believes that it's not genuine enough. I've known parents like this- their kids are great but they always think that they have ulterior motives. It's so bizarre to me. It really sounds like this mom has a lot of problems and is projecting them on to her poor kid. Hopefully this mom won't break her daughter's spirit and her daughter will leave as soon as she's 18.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Mrs. E blathered on for pages about "Are you a member of God’s Fan club?"

Wow. That is unhinged. But it's interesting to notice that if you replaced "God" with the name of some band leader, the entire post could easily have been written by some "Big Name Fan" on the internet, the sort who love nothing better than to show off in various fandom circles by going on and on and ON about how "well, YOU might be in the fan club, you might THINK you know this band but you don't - not like ME, because I actually MET this guy, we had a weekend fling when he was in my city and we went all the way, and I'm just SUUUUURE he treasures that weekend like I do and thinks I'm his true love, the only person who REALLY understands him, you people are just so youthfully naive, but ME, I KNOW him..." :roll:

[gardenvarietycitizen]

This mom sounds paranoid and sick. She readily admits that her daughter acts cheerful and obedient etc., but yet still believes that it's not genuine enough. I've known parents like this- their kids are great but they always think that they have ulterior motives. It's so bizarre to me. It really sounds like this mom has a lot of problems and is projecting them on to her poor kid. Hopefully this mom won't break her daughter's spirit and her daughter will leave as soon as she's 18.

Also extremely much this. The mother is just fixated on this "rebellion" that she can't even really objectively SEE - from her own report, the kid is willingly doing the chores, smiling (even if under duress) and even anticpating things.

I've had a boss with some tendencies in this direction and it was horrible. He always wanted us to "be proactive" or "be more enthusiastic" or "try harder" or similar things, but would never, EVER, give any concrete directions as to what exactly that would MEAN, in terms of the work being done or even smiles at the office or customer service or ANYTHING. Because if you have to ask, then your heart's not in it and you aren't getting it yet. But meanwhile, he'll know it when he sees it. When he sees what? Well, he can't say. But he'll just know.

Worst boss ever.

[Ava]

What I find interesting is that she's not so much griping about her kids not doing what she wants them to do, but that it's done with the "wrong attitude". Like she basically wants little worker-drone clones of herself that think and believe exactly the same things that she does, and not, you know, independent individuals. Who knows what her criteria are for judging that, but the children seem to always be failing. It's really a no-win situation for everyone involved: you cannot make someone believe something, you can only make them act like they believe it, and that's not good enough for her, and it will never be good enough, and it will always be the only thing she gets. And they'll all be eternally disgusted with each other.

I was about 12 when I started coming to the realization that I didn't really believe in Christianity. I was really looking forward to confirmation at 13 because that would make me an 'adult' member of the church and I stupidly assumed that meant my parents would treat my opinions on religion in an 'adult' manner and I could quit going to church. Luckily my parents found "go through the motions of doing it even if you believe none of it" to be acceptable, even encouragable. I wonder how much of the lifestyle that's been foisted on her the daughter actually believes in.

[Muffy]

gardenvarietycitizen said, about the "God's Fan Club" post,

Wow. That is unhinged. But it's interesting to notice that if you replaced "God" with the name of some band leader, the entire post could easily have been written by some "Big Name Fan" on the internet, the sort who love nothing better than to show off in various fandom circles by going on and on and ON about how "well, YOU might be in the fan club, you might THINK you know this band but you don't - not like ME, because I actually MET this guy, we had a weekend fling when he was in my city and we went all the way, and I'm just SUUUUURE he treasures that weekend like I do and thinks I'm his true love, the only person who REALLY understands him, you people are just so youthfully naive, but ME, I KNOW him..."

In that post, she describes what we are supposed to think is her superior walk with God - she claims that she really truly "knows" God, unlike so many of us (including those of us who might be offended by what she writes), who are only "fans."

The ironic thing is, the overriding characteristic of the Christian life is supposed to be love. And oh yeah, grace. People with the most basic understanding of Jesus and the Christian faith know enough to know that whatever they post on the internet ought to at least SEEM like it's coming from a heart full of Jesus' love. People who actually do "know God" know this.

A mere 10 months after rambling for thousands of words about how she really really really does know God, Mrs. E then un-self-consciously turns around and spews to the world words demonstrating a total lack of love and grace toward her daughter. To me, that reveals a frightening absence of awareness. Yet she continues to publish this junk, like she's just so full of wisdom that she can't contain herself? And in other posts she mentions the opportunities she gets to teach and speak to women?

I'm sorry - I don't mean to get so hung up on this one infrequent blogger. I know there is an entire movement that is spawning a generation of kids who are being systematically disabled from ever being able to take their rightful place in the world as individuals. But it's just so disturbing to me to see such a blatant example of psychological abuse paraded around by someone who thinks she "really knows God."

I don't even think Mrs. E has filled out an application to be part of God's fan club yet. :D

[Muffy]

One more thing, and then I'll try to shut up about Mrs. E...

Someone upthread made a great observation, along the lines of, Mrs. E should ask herself if she approaches her own work with the same level of joy and enthusiasm she is requiring of her daughter.

There are several posts where she clearly admits that she feels discouraged and like not doing her own work. So it's clear that she isn't holding herself to the same standard she's using to judge her daughter - the standard that is filling her with "disgust" over her daughter's lack of pleasure in chores.

Again, I wonder what her husband thinks of all this, and what the family's circle of friends thinks. Do they say anything? Does anyone try to intervene and look out for the poor little 12-year-old? I have a 12-year-old daughter of my own, and I can't imagine working her like a slave...and then condemning her for not being excited about her slavery.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

This week my older two children (15 and 11) are starting spiritual boot camp. My husband and I had both noticed that their heart for the Lord was growing a bit cold. Their obedience seemed to be becoming habitual, shallow and "performed." Their service to their family and younger siblings was not wholehearted, as unto the Lord. Their verbal responses, facial expressions, and body language towards my husband, and me, while outwardly respectful and "satisfactory," were lacking in true honor and respect. They seemed to be growing careless of God.

For our children, folks, this is serious DANGER. SERIOUS danger. It is spiritually terminal! The ONLY hope my children have of growing up spiritually strong, of growing up to have life go "well" for them, and to grow up successful (the success God has planned for them), established, stable, and thriving… the only hope for them, as stated in the Bible, is that they honor their father and mother, and obey them. And their learning to do that rests on me, as their parent. When I train them in this "first commandment with promise," I am training them up spiritually to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. As they are growing, I can measure their growing love for the Lord by measuring how they function within our family and how they respond to their parents and siblings. I can train their heart and mind for the Lord by training them first in their heart and mind towards their parents and siblings. That is why the "first commandment with promise" is for children, and it is the commandment that they honor and obey their father and mother. It starts there, and as they grow, it ends in their success! It ends (their childhood) with things being "well" with them!

ANYWAY, knowing that this training ranks above all other types of education or training or academics, my children are being sent to immediate boot camp to get them back on course spiritually. I talked to them both and they both agreed that their hearts had grown cold, and their actions perfunctory and fleshly. I told them it was my first and foremost calling to exhort and train them up for the Lord, and that I was going to do all I could to shepherd them back into God’s best for their life. They understood this (we have been in this spot many times, my friends… this is a continual job! It is never a one-time teaching!)

There is tons more I won't copy/paste. I can imagine that older boy wrestling the steering wheel out of her control and throwing her out of the car if she does this!! Cause yammering away at a boy is the way to make him into a Godly man, right? Just ugh!

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I don't even think Mrs. E has filled out an application to be part of God's fan club yet. :D

SRSLY. But it would be so "beneath" her, dontcha know... :whistle:

[Letgo]

I talked to them both and they both agreed that their hearts had grown cold, and their actions perfunctory and fleshly.

I can just imagine this discussion with those kids. I bet they both agreed to get her off their backs and because they must ALWAYS agree with her. Anything else is disobedience. If their hearts were cold toward her it is a reflection of her attitude toward them. Those poor kids. I remember reading her blog a quite a while back. It sounds even sadder now.

[dawbs]

Also extremely much this. The mother is just fixated on this "rebellion" that she can't even really objectively SEE - from her own report, the kid is willingly doing the chores, smiling (even if under duress) and even anticpating things.

I've had a boss with some tendencies in this direction and it was horrible. He always wanted us to "be proactive" or "be more enthusiastic" or "try harder" or similar things, but would never, EVER, give any concrete directions as to what exactly that would MEAN, in terms of the work being done or even smiles at the office or customer service or ANYTHING. Because if you have to ask, then your heart's not in it and you aren't getting it yet. But meanwhile, he'll know it when he sees it. When he sees what? Well, he can't say. But he'll just know.

Worst boss ever.

it's...15 pieces of flair.

[Kitten]

Ok, so the daughter is outwardly compliant, but the mom "knows" she is rebellious inside.

You know what, she's RIGHT. This is a kid who realizes she's in a hellhole, and is just biding her time until she can escape. Just like political prisoners in "reeducation" camps, she is keeping her head down and counting the days until she is 18. Because right now, she doesn't see any other way out of the insane asylum. Who is going to believe a 12-year-old girl if she runs away and tries to explain this kind of home situation?

Sadly, her mother is at least intelligent/sensitive enough to grasp that her outward compliance is not internalized in the way the Duggars and the Maxwells and others of their ilk seem to have managed to inculcate in their daughters. And that will make this poor child's struggle even harder, because if you've ever had to get up, day after day, and live a life that is a lie, you will know how hard it is to put on the "face of submission" when inside you is a raging spirit, and your jailer knows it, too.

I vote we all pray for this child day and night, that her God/inner will/self-worth gives her the strength to carry on until she can escape the madness, and that when she does get out, it is with her soul and her sanity intact.

[Trynn]

I vote we all pray for this child day and night, that her God/inner will/self-worth gives her the strength to carry on until she can escape the madness, and that when she does get out, it is with her soul and her sanity intact.

This. So this.

[Annette]

Where is the father in all this? Admittedly I have only read a small portion of her blog but I don't find much about him - it is all about her submitting, loving Jesus and not her husband, forgiving her husband's faults, etc. I wonder what involvement (if any) he has beyond providing sperm and proving the cash for expenses. I don't know his situation but IMO this woman has a mental illness and it is his responsibility to care for his children. Those children are the victims here and he needs to step in. I hope he has done so.

This family reminds me a lot of my own. And my mother actually IS diagnosed with schizophrenia. I have struggled with the question of, why didn't my dad do something about it? In our case, the years when my mother was most rapidly declining was when my dad had just been retired from a 9-5 job in the Army and had to find whatever he could to support us. He worked long night shifts for a very long time, until after I had left for college. His time with us was mostly an hour or so in the morning while he read the paper after coming home from work, and an hour or so for dinner before leaving the house in the evening.

The other factor was that he and my mom were always up and down. My mom resembles Mrs. E in her child-rearing ideas, but my mother was in no way afflicted with submissive-wife syndrome, just to be clear! She would give my dad hell quite often, so I think the other half of our equation was my dad not wanting to rock her boat.

I love my dad a lot, but looking back I do see that he let us down at that time.

[Annette]

I can just imagine this discussion with those kids. I bet they both agreed to get her off their backs and because they must ALWAYS agree with her. Anything else is disobedience. If their hearts were cold toward her it is a reflection of her attitude toward them. Those poor kids. I remember reading her blog a quite a while back. It sounds even sadder now.

Ugh, this takes me back to evenings spent in my mom's bedroom. Her sitting in bed, me in the rocking chair in the corner, all the lights off. Hours of lecturing.