Family Living on Purpose (FLOP) : Erika Shupe Pt 12

[picklepizzas]

Well, Stalin killed millions of people as well, so I actually don’t see the problem with that statement? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin

[JermajestyDuggar]

Speculation alert: 

I think Melanie has a very different personality from Karen. However they grew up pretty similarly. They were both homeschooled until finishing school. They were both the built in sister moms. They both had an extremely isolated and controlled childhood. But Karen has a personality that will question authority and seeks out new people and experiences. I believe she had to fight hard to get a job at first and then move out on her own. At her new job she met people from all walks of life. She was more open minded to these new friends compared to her parents. She moved far away and got married. She left Melanie behind and I always got the feeling that they were very close. We’ve read accounts of fundies left at home feeling abandoned by their older sibling. I’m guessing Melanie is hurt by her sister leaving and is staying isolated. I think she may be more introverted and her family is likely still a huge part of her life. Her younger siblings get to have a life outside their family (public school). I imagine it’s so hard to try and make friends as a young adult who is naturally introverted and isolated her entire childhood. Im actually surprised she has a boyfriend. Where did she meet him? And I’m not surprised if he’s some MAGA hat wearing kid. I’m not expecting Melanie to buck any of her parents’ beliefs anytime soon. 

[mango_fandango]

I clicked onto the guy’s profile. I noticed that both Erika and Bob are his FB friends. I remember someone came on here claiming to have known the family and saying that Karen had not done the courtship model/Erika and Bob had not been involved in the process, and that they didn’t even want to meet the guy. Now, we don’t actually know if this poster ever actually *did* know the Shupes, and so we obviously don’t know *if* the info was true, but the poster did get a couple of things right, eg that Karen was engaged and was going to have a courthouse wedding. 

That all being said... IF the poster’s info was true, it’s telling that the guy has both Erika and Bob are FB friends with this guy. 

Also, given their 180 in many ways, I wonder how this relationship is being played out. Is it being called “courtship”? Perhaps it is a kind of courtship but with a bit more flexibility. It’s impossible to tell if Melanie will marry this guy in say a year’s time, or what. 

And I’m guessing that the hammer-and-sickle/swastika thing is more an attack on socialism/left-wingers than anything. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

11 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

I clicked onto the guy’s profile. I noticed that both Erika and Bob are his FB friends. I remember someone came on here claiming to have known the family and saying that Karen had not done the courtship model/Erika and Bob had not been involved in the process, and that they didn’t even want to meet the guy. Now, we don’t actually know if this poster ever actually *did* know the Shupes, and so we obviously don’t know *if* the info was true, but the poster did get a couple of things right, eg that Karen was engaged and was going to have a courthouse wedding. 

That all being said... IF the poster’s info was true, it’s telling that the guy has both Erika and Bob are FB friends with this guy. 

Also, given their 180 in many ways, I wonder how this relationship is being played out. Is it being called “courtship”? Perhaps it is a kind of courtship but with a bit more flexibility. It’s impossible to tell if Melanie will marry this guy in say a year’s time, or what. 

And I’m guessing that the hammer-and-sickle/swastika thing is more an attack on socialism/left-wingers than anything. 

His profile picture features the tops of the Shupe twins’ heads so I think he’s friendly with the whole family. Plus he seems to be into aviation like Bob and Brandon. 

[16strong]

12 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

Also, given their 180 in many ways, I wonder how this relationship is being played out.

I wouldn't call what the Shupes did a 180. It seems like they got lazy and exhausted/tired. I don't see that many of their nasty beliefs have fallen by the wayside. Erika has a long history of do as I say not as I do. The public school thing seems to have been a reaction to her illness, and then when she got better, realized she liked a quiet house without kids too much and didn't want to homeschool anymore. The level of control she was exerting over all those kids is exhausting and unsustainable, especially when rebellion and special needs rear their heads. As for clothes, Erika has always dressed the kids in whatever way makes her look best. Her current audience is public school moms who don't understand frumpers, not the fundie audience she previously courted. Bob seems to hold the same hateful, anti-government maga beliefs as before, based on his and Melanie's Facebook posts. Without a doubt, Erika no longer blogs because she resents the public school, shorts-wearing heathen she has become, and is too ashamed to admit that she failed as a fundie, and now sucks the government tit with relish just like everyone else.

Edited January 31, 2019 by 16strong

[meee]

3 hours ago, 16strong said:

I wouldn't call what the Shupes did a 180. It seems like they got lazy and exhausted/tired. I don't see that many of their nasty beliefs have fallen by the wayside. Erika has a long history of do as I say not as I do. The public school thing seems to have been a reaction to her illness, and then when she got better, realized she liked a quiet house without kids too much and didn't want to homeschool anymore. The level of control she was exerting over all those kids is exhausting and unsustainable, especially when rebellion and special needs rear their heads. As for clothes, Erika has always dressed the kids in whatever way makes her look best. Her current audience is public school moms who don't understand frumpers, not the fundie audience she previously courted. Bob seems to hold the same hateful, anti-government maga beliefs as before, based on his and Melanie's Facebook posts. Without a doubt, Erika no longer blogs because she resents the public school, shorts-wearing heathen she has become, and is too ashamed to admit that she failed as a fundie, and now sucks the government tit with relish just like everyone else.

I don't understand what fundies have against the government. Please explain? 

Also, what illness? I don't remember this. Thanks!

[16strong]

6 hours ago, meee said:

I don't understand what fundies have against the government. Please explain? 

Also, what illness? I don't remember this. Thanks!

A vitamin deficiency.

[Lisafer]

Re: the Rommel quote (I'm glad we moved to the Shupe thread, I didn't want to derail what we were discussing elsewhere). Apparently there's something called the "Rommel myth" or "Rommel mythos" which was promoted not only by German nationals but also by the Allies. It was a view of Rommel as a noble soldier, man of the people, someone who did not believe in the slaughter of innocents. This bit of propaganda was used by both sides, apparently.

There's quite a few websites that discuss it, but many of them are in German and I can't read them. I do remember encountering this view in older history books. 

My guess is that, somewhere along the way, this young man was served a large helping of the Rommel myth and bought it hook, line, and sinker. It plays into all kinds of stereotypes about masculinity and the noble enemy. 

The closest comparison I can think of is promoting Nathan Bedford Forrest as some kind of true Christian soldier, like the Bates apparently do.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I have definitely seen the "true Christian soldier" promoted around Robert E Lee. Unfortunately, you can't rule out charisma in building a cult of personality. Robert E Lee definitely was a more striking and charismatic figure than Uylesses S Grant. 

[Melissa1977]

On 1/30/2019 at 5:38 PM, picklepizzas said:

Well, Stalin killed millions of people as well, so I actually don’t see the problem with that statement? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin

There's a huge difference.

Nazism and fascism main objective is to eliminate (or at least make life extremely hard) to whoever thinks different, and to non whites, and to non Christian, and to non heterosexual, etc). So you cannot be a peaceful nazi nor call you a respectful fascist.

Socialism is not about killing people, it is about making people equal!. So although some socialist leaders have used their power to kill, it was not inherent on their ideology. They just made a mean interpretation of it. 

[nausicaa]

34 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

There's a huge difference.

Nazism and fascism main objective is to eliminate (or at least make life extremely hard) to whoever thinks different, and to non whites, and to non Christian, and to non heterosexual, etc). So you cannot be a peaceful nazi nor call you a respectful fascist.

Socialism is not about killing people, it is about making people equal!. So although some socialist leaders have used their power to kill, it was not inherent on their ideology. They just made a mean interpretation of it. 

But isn't the hammer and sickle exclusively associated with communism and not things like Swedish-style socialism? I thought it came about during the Russian Revolution, and so is overwhelmingly associated with the the Soviet Union. Most socialists I know purposely try to distance themselves from it as iconography.

I think this kid is an idiot, but saying the USSR (especially under Stalin) was as murderous as Nazi Germany seems fair as well as historically accurate. 

1 hour ago, Lisafer said:

My guess is that, somewhere along the way, this young man was served a large helping of the Rommel myth and bought it hook, line, and sinker. It plays into all kinds of stereotypes about masculinity and the noble enemy. 

I'd never heard that before; it's interesting and I can see it being propagated among a certain type of young man. 

I would think the Civilian Air Patrol would shut that shit down though. I've no doubt they have their fair share of far right believers, but I'd assume they wouldn't take kindly to the glamorization of a wartime enemy that killed a good number of American pilots. And at least in my area, a lot of pilots are the sons and grandsons of American WWII vets who fought in the European theater.

[Lisafer]

6 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I would think the Civilian Air Patrol would shut that shit down though. I've no doubt they have their fair share of far right believers, but I'd assume they wouldn't take kindly to the glamorization of a wartime enemy that killed a good number of American pilots. And at least in my area, a lot of pilots are the sons and grandsons of American WWII vets who fought in the European theater.

It was a view promoted by the Allies as well, even after the war. I could see it lingering, even in something like the Civilian Air Patrol. I dug up a couple of interesting links, if you're interested:

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/erwin-rommel

https://unireadinghistory.com/2018/09/07/our-friend-rommel-how-hollywood-invented-the-good-german/

[ViolaSebastian]

1 hour ago, 16strong said:

A vitamin deficiency.

Do we think it's a vitamin deficiency or a "vitamin deficiency"? 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I wonder if Erika looks back at her family pictures and heartily regrets the frumpers. They really don’t look good on anyone. 

[Jellybean]

29 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Do we think it's a vitamin deficiency or a "vitamin deficiency"? 

I had to spend several weeks in a specialist neurology/neuro rehab hospital for treatment of a vitamin B12 deficiency. Some of the effects can be pretty hardcore. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency

It's hard to know with Erika though, isn’t it? Especially as she went to someone like a chiropractor (iirc) for everything, including nutrition advice and treatment of childhood injuries

[mango_fandango]

I remember at some point she mentioned cutting down on meat consumption, partly because of cost. Thing is, meat is a great source of B12. Veggies and vegans usually take a supplement. I don’t think she cut out meat completely, but I can see that reducing her intake and not thinking about other consequences (eg reduced vitamin B12) could’ve had an effect. 

[picklepizzas]

3 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

There's a huge difference.

Nazism and fascism main objective is to eliminate (or at least make life extremely hard) to whoever thinks different, and to non whites, and to non Christian, and to non heterosexual, etc). So you cannot be a peaceful nazi nor call you a respectful fascist.

Socialism is not about killing people, it is about making people equal!. So although some socialist leaders have used their power to kill, it was not inherent on their ideology. They just made a mean interpretation of it. 

I mean that was how the ussr interpreted socialism as well - anyone who dissented was killed, deported or put in camps.  The nazis and Soviets identified those in society that they wished to silence and eliminate. Just because they identified their victims differently than the nazis does not make their mass genocide any less reprehensible. Just because socialism is popular right now and can be applied as a non-evil ideaology doesn’t justify whitewashing or diminishing the crimes of communist regimes...

Edited January 31, 2019 by picklepizzas

[Lisafer]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I wonder if Erika looks back at her family pictures and heartily regrets the frumpers. They really don’t look good on anyone. 

I hate looking at pictures of my teenage self. Frumpers and long hair and thick glasses, oh my! If Erika doesn't regret it, some of her kids probably do. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

I hate looking at pictures of my teenage self. Frumpers and long hair and thick glasses, oh my! If Erika doesn't regret it, some of her kids probably do. 

I think that’s totally normal. Adults usually regret at least one outfit from their youth. I love looking back and laughing my ass off at my hideous outfits from the 80s and 90s. I have no sense of style and it shows! However I don’t have a ton of outfits that I wore in adulthood that I completely regret. If you go by Erika’s old blog, she often put a lot of thought and energy in their clothing choices. And to look back and think it looks awful must suck. I’ve seen her family. Her mother and sisters dress nicely and quite current. It still amazes me that she came from a family with a good sense of style and chose to dress the way she did.  

[Melissa1977]

24 minutes ago, picklepizzas said:

I mean that was how the ussr interpreted socialism as well - anyone who dissented was killed, deported or put in camps.  The nazis and Soviets identified those in society that they wished to silence and eliminate. Just because they identified their victims differently than the nazis does not make their mass genocide any less reprehensible. Just because socialism is popular right now and can be applied as a non-evil ideaology doesn’t justify whitewashing or diminishing the crimes of communist regimes...

Whitewashing? Not at all. Never.

But socialism as an ideology is not what Stalin did. Conversely, nazism as an ideology was exactly what Hitler did. 

Trying to make socialists feel bad because Stalin is a manipulation. Because he wasn't following Marx ideas at all.

[Lisafer]

10 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think that’s totally normal. Adults usually regret at least one outfit from their youth. I love looking back and laughing my ass off at my hideous outfits from the 80s and 90s. I have no sense of style and it shows! However I don’t have a ton of outfits that I wore in adulthood that I completely regret. If you go by Erika’s old blog, she often put a lot of thought and energy in their clothing choices. And to look back and think it looks awful must suck. I’ve seen her family. Her mother and sisters dress nicely and quite current. It still amazes me that she came from a family with a good sense of style and chose to dress the way she did.  

But dressing that way made her SPECIAL!!! 

Maybe she doesn't feel like the clothing choices sucked too much. Going through old photos to refresh my memory of her and the kids, it's not as bad as it could be. She managed to make frumpers a little more modern than, say, Michelle Duggar. 

Erika's a bit of an enigma to me. She always seemed less about the Jesus stuff and more about control, control, control. I'd like to know whether she's still just as controlling now as she used to be, even though her clothing has changed. The fact that she didn't attend her own daughter's wedding makes me think she's still very rigid.

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, mango_fandango said:

I remember at some point she mentioned cutting down on meat consumption, partly because of cost. Thing is, meat is a great source of B12. Veggies and vegans usually take a supplement. I don’t think she cut out meat completely, but I can see that reducing her intake and not thinking about other consequences (eg reduced vitamin B12) could’ve had an effect. 

Eggs and milk have B12 too. Even cutting down meat, there's no problem if you eat other animal protein sources, isn't it?

I'm interested because I'm thinking on cutting down meat/fish myself, and I trust that eggs and milk are enough.

[nausicaa]

19 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

But socialism as an ideology is not what Stalin did. Conversely, nazism as an ideology was exactly what Hitler did. 

Trying to make socialists feel bad because Stalin is a manipulation. Because he wasn't following Marx ideas at all.

But the original meme didn't mention "socialism" or "socialists"--only the hammer and sickle.

(Are we all talking about the same meme here? I'm confused.)

[JermajestyDuggar]

19 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

But dressing that way made her SPECIAL!!! 

Maybe she doesn't feel like the clothing choices sucked too much. Going through old photos to refresh my memory of her and the kids, it's not as bad as it could be. She managed to make frumpers a little more modern than, say, Michelle Duggar. 

Erika's a bit of an enigma to me. She always seemed less about the Jesus stuff and more about control, control, control. I'd like to know whether she's still just as controlling now as she used to be, even though her clothing has changed. The fact that she didn't attend her own daughter's wedding makes me think she's still very rigid.

True. Michelle and Kelly’s teased permed hair and frilly frumpers took the cake. At least Erika was a bit toned down.

[picklepizzas]

33 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

Whitewashing? Not at all. Never.

But socialism as an ideology is not what Stalin did. Conversely, nazism as an ideology was exactly what Hitler did. 

Trying to make socialists feel bad because Stalin is a manipulation. Because he wasn't following Marx ideas at all.

Just bc we don’t like how they were applied/interpreted doesn’t mean they weren’t following them. Like many ideas, they can be interpreted and applied in bad ways. And in the USSR (and China, and others) we have some striking examples where attempts to apply socialism went fearfully wrong. Nazi-level wrong. And we should keep these poor examples in mind just as closely as the good examples of modern socialism.

eta: so yes, I am turned off by symbols of the ussr much as I am turned off by nazi symbols. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by picklepizzas
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