Family Living on Purpose (FLOP) : Erika Shupe Pt 12

[mango_fandango]

16 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

Eggs and milk have B12 too. Even cutting down meat, there's no problem if you eat other animal protein sources, isn't it?

I'm interested because I'm thinking on cutting down meat/fish myself, and I trust that eggs and milk are enough.

That’s true, but Erika was also a real “healthy eating” nut. They usually had green smoothies for breakfast and salads for lunch, at least during the week. The salads were “Cobb” ones and so may have had some egg on them, but not a huge amount. 

[Melissa1977]

2 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

But the original meme didn't mention "socialism" or "socialists"--only the hammer and sickle.

(Are we all talking about the same meme here? I'm confused.)

The problem is that some people, when watching holocaust images, say that bad things also happened in Russia. Doing that implies that we should give less importance to the holocaust, because it wasn't unique. 

But following this logic, we can find other mass murders around the world, some ancient and other modern. What about someone saying that US flag is the symbol of the holocaust of thousands of indians? I'm sure US people would say that their flag represents a lot of other things, most positive! Well, the hammer and the sickle represent the power of the workers, not mass murders. 

It's very very dangerous to try to make holocaust less important because other bad things had happened. It's a trick often used by fascists, in order to move the focus of the discussion. I think we all should be aware of it. 

*disclaimer. English is not my language. It's difficult to write about these issues. By any means may you think I whitewash anything. But I'm absolutely, deeply worried about the fascism coming back to Europe and talking about Russia is a trick they use all the time to make nazis looks less bad.

[picklepizzas]

3 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

The problem is that some people, when watching holocaust images, say that bad things also happened in Russia. Doing that implies that we should give less importance to the holocaust, because it wasn't unique. 

But following this logic, we can find other mass murders around the world, some ancient and other modern. What about someone saying that US flag is the symbol of the holocaust of thousands of indians? I'm sure US people would say that their flag represents a lot of other things, most positive! Well, the hammer and the sickle represent the power of the workers, not mass murders. 

It's very very dangerous to try to make holocaust less important because other bad things had happened. It's a trick often used by fascists, in order to move the focus of the discussion. I think we all should be aware of it. 

*disclaimer. English is not my language. It's difficult to write about these issues. By any means may you think I whitewash anything. But I'm absolutely, deeply worried about the fascism coming back to Europe and talking about Russia is a trick they use all the time to make nazis looks less bad.

The hammer and sickle may have represented other more benign things at one time, but they have been co-opted by the ussr and I personally feel that continuing to pretend those symbols are only benign implies that you don’t think what the ussr did was that bad. It would be the same with nazi symbols - they may have had other uses and meanings before but to try and associate them with their more benign origins implies that you don’t think what the nazis did was so bad as to forever ruin those symbols. 

I guess I’m not familiar with people downplaying the holocaust by bringing up the USSR? I don’t think it undercuts the seriousness of the holocaust to acknowledge the similar scale of other atrocities, though. 

[EmainMacha]

11 minutes ago, picklepizzas said:

 

I guess I’m not familiar with people downplaying the holocaust by bringing up the USSR? I don’t think it undercuts the seriousness of the holocaust to acknowledge the similar scale of other atrocities, though. 

I've seen right wingers point out that Stalin killed more people than Hitler. Which is true but the thought behind it doesn't appear to be that those 2 individuals were monsters but rather than communism was worse than nazi-fascism. And thus, by extension, the crimes of Stalin's regime were worse than those of Hitler, including the Holocaust.

Edited January 31, 2019 by EmainMacha

[picklepizzas]

6 minutes ago, EmainMacha said:

I've seen right wingers point out that Stalin killed more people than Hitler. Which is true but the thought behind it doesn't appear to be that those 2 individuals were monsters but rather than communism was worse than nazi-fascism. And thus, by extension, the crimes of Stalin's regime were worse than those of Hitler, including the Holocaust.

Interesting. I obviously don’t agree with that. After a certain point atrocities are too severe to rank, regardless of the raw numbers involved. When insults to hitler  have you feeling defensive, you’re probably in trouble. 

[Topaz]

I don’t think that many people on FJ would want to downplay the Holocaust (and anyone who did would face a serious - and deserved- backlash) but I also don’t think that the comments on here are doing that.

I wouldn’t like that Facebook post because I think it was made as part of a broader ideology to which I most definitely do not subscribe. However I do agree that the hammer and sickle are too closely associated with a regime that killed millions of people and are probably best not associated with socialism today (and my political leanings are in that direction).

Is this view of the symbol an unfortunate perversion of what it was originally meant to be? IMO yes. However as @picklepizzas said other symbols have suffered the same fate including under the Nazis. The swastika was originally a peace symbol but now it is generally understood as a hate symbol (including by FJ as per the guidelines).

 I am also European and worry about the rise of the far right but I don’t think that we should downplay the atrocities committed by the far left either. Especially in a community capable of thoughtful and nuanced discussion.

[Aine]

Socialism and Communism are not the same thing for those equating them.

Sweden and Scandinavian countries also aren't 'socialist', they are democratic socialist countries and there is a difference. 

This article articulates it well for those who are interested: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/24/a-high-school-teacher-helps-clarify-socialism-for-donald-trump-and-you/?utm_term=.45ee35561872

I agree that the hammer and sickle is associated with authoritarian 'communist' countries- although it's difficult to define how a communist country would even look from Marx's manifesto, it was kind of an abstract idea and a truly communist country has never really 'worked' for Marx's stated aims. The closest is maybe kibbutzes in Israel but again, not a country but a small community. It's sad because the initial sickle and hammer symbolized the proletariat and the peasantry standing up to the bourgeoisie and that was needed (in my opinion) at the time in Russia with the extreme inequality.

I will say the same for the swastika. Originally it was used in many cultures across the Asian continent for religious reasons. I have a friend that is an immigrant from India who, after getting his brand new car after securing his first academic position, had his parents send a religious leader to bless his car. He blessed it and then spread a yellow powder in the shape of a backward swastika on his black bonnet. It was raining right before it happened and I met him at the gym and he came out to show me his new car and I was like ? I get it's backward but dude- you're gonna get your shiny new car torn to shreds! He really didn't think it was so bad but he suddenly understood the aggressive looks he was getting! It didn't start bad but now, it's not safe to keep that there because in most of the world it means something different.

But Marx's work of a communist society was abstract and really not fleshed out, especially when it came to checks and balances on power. Marxist communism is different from democratic socialism. Any kind of 'common ownership' is a perfect setting for corruption. The history of Russia did create a ripe environment for someone like Stalin to rise to power, especially after the death of Lenin, but the issue is with a system allowing totalitarian rule and a cult of personality headed by a power hungry psychopath rather than the underlying thoughts that created it. Whenever democracy and people having autonomy and some power and their lives valued is lost, you're going to create space for a person, because there will always be at least one psychopath (they are 1% of the population and not always criminal), who will have the will, charisma, and ability to take advantage of that.

The US is not completely capitalist. We have now had a good experiment for nearly 50 years around the world in multiple countries when it comes to democratic socialism and those countries have the highest quality of life in the world and individuals can still get rich. Constitutions and laws prevent an autocrat coming into power in these countries and people are happy to pay a higher tax rate because they realize that more people healthy and educated enough to participate in society can only mean good things. 

Stalin was evil. Hitler was evil. Mao was evil. Mussolini was evil.

But I don't think it's helpful for a conversation to start using terms that don't mean the same thing interchangeably.

[JillyO]

Great post, @Aine. I agree completely!

I would also like to point out that the only reasons I can see for spreading a meme like that is to

1. downplay national socialism or
2. equate Stalinist "communism" with today's democratic socialism with the intent to decry it or
3. most likely both.

Frankly, I'm not inclined to give a fundie the benefit of the doubt here. Especially not one whose boyfriend proudly sports a Rommel quote on his profile and who constantly touts her own right-wing political views. I'm always down to discuss the atrocities committed by and in the USSR. But if you think that was Melanie's intention in posting that meme, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[ladyamylynn]

On 1/31/2019 at 1:11 PM, picklepizzas said:

eta: so yes, I am turned off by symbols of the ussr much as I am turned off by nazi symbols. 

Except no one currently uses the hammer and sickle as a symbol of racial intimidation. Nazism is having a bit of a comeback if you haven't noticed. 

[picklepizzas]

4 hours ago, ladyamylynn said:

Except no one currently uses the hammer and sickle as a symbol of racial intimidation. Nazism is having a bit of a comeback if you haven't noticed. 

I have noticed, thanks. 

I've also noticed the rise of casually wearing bags, shirts, etc. with the hammer and sickle, as if it's not a big deal that the symbol is associated with millions of murders, bc at one time that symbol started out meaning something else.  Given this trend I don't think it's out of line to question why the hammer and sickle is not as taboo as the swastika (rightly) is. 

Acknowledging that this is a problematic, offensive symbol of a hateful regime DOES NOT mean that we should focus *less* on the rising problem of fascism or be less disgusted by it.  i am personally more worried by fascism right now than communism, but that doesn't mean i have to ignore or downplay other symbols of oppression. so i see a meme like that and my reaction is 'huh, that's true. its kind of icky that people are wearing hammer and sickle stuff. now back to my regularly scheduled worrying about donald trump."

Edited February 4, 2019 by picklepizzas

[ladyamylynn]

Hate crimes against Jews in America are up 38% last year according to the FBI. The swastika is an actively, in-use, symbol of racist hate, and I can hardly believe there's anyone here "whatabouting" whether or not it's as bad as a symbol of a bygone regime. I'm frankly shocked. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-46189391

[Melissa1977]

10 hours ago, picklepizzas said:

I've also noticed the rise of casually wearing bags, shirts, etc. with the hammer and sickle, as if it's not a big deal that the symbol is associated with millions of murders, bc at one time that symbol started out meaning something else.  Given this trend I don't think it's out of line to question why the hammer and sickle is not as taboo as the swastika (rightly) is

Because people.who wear the hammer and the sickle nowadays are not wearing them as a symbol of opression, but as a symbol of people rights. But those who wear the swastica nowadays are wearing it as a symbol of violence and racism.

You can keep saying it's the same (choosing just a part of the whole story of the symbol) but symbols are alive. They develope. Even the cross has been a very dark symbol (as has been misused for mean purposes) along the history, but noone I knew wears it as a symbol of violence against heathens. 

[picklepizzas]

8 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Because people.who wear the hammer and the sickle nowadays are not wearing them as a symbol of opression, but as a symbol of people rights. But those who wear the swastica nowadays are wearing it as a symbol of violence and racism.

You can keep saying it's the same (choosing just a part of the whole story of the symbol) but symbols are alive. They develope. Even the cross has been a very dark symbol (as has been misused for mean purposes) along the history, but noone I knew wears it as a symbol of violence against heathens. 

Yes, and I find it distasteful, to say the least, to try and reclaim a symbol that millions of people died under as a symbol of the people’s rights. That we’ve let the symbol evolve into something benign implies that we no longer are shocked and appalled enough by the actions of the regimes it represented.  

But you’re right, there’s obviously a very different intention behind wearing both symbols right now.  The swastika is being actively used to cause harm right now. Fasicsm is the clear and present threat. 

[nausicaa]

9 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Because people.who wear the hammer and the sickle nowadays are not wearing them as a symbol of opression, but as a symbol of people rights. But those who wear the swastica nowadays are wearing it as a symbol of violence and racism.

By this logic, someone can claim they display the swastika because they just really like good highway systems and they aren't anti-Semitic at all. 

And I don't know how you are so sure of the beliefs of every person you know wearing the hammer and sickle? I do know people who display the hammer and sickle for "workers rights" and then go on to claim that Stalin wasn't so bad, or that Stalin and Mao were actually positive figures for the twentieth century. 

Also--the Soviet Union was anti-Semitic as fuck. So yeah, I find displaying it directly disrespectful towards the suffering of Russian Jews.  As well as the victims of the Great Purge, the Holodomor, and the Katyn massacre.

[nausicaa]

11 hours ago, ladyamylynn said:

Hate crimes against Jews in America are up 38% last year according to the FBI. The swastika is an actively, in-use, symbol of racist hate, and I can hardly believe there's anyone here "whatabouting" whether or not it's as bad as a symbol of a bygone regime. I'm frankly shocked. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-46189391

The rise in hate crimes against Jews terrifies me too. And imo, the creeping sanitization of the history of Communist atrocities plays a part. And it really, really freaks me out. For me it's not whatabouting, but rather worrying about multiple waves that seem to be occurring at once.

We can't kid ourselves that antisemitism is some bete noire exclusive to MAGA hatters. It's been an undercurrent on the Left, particularly the Far Left, for a long time too. From Women's March organizers rubbing elbows with Louis Farrakhan, Ilhan Omar's 2012 tweet using language that hearkens back to Jewish conspiracy theories, to all of Jeremy Corbyn's bullshit. And I do believe attempting to whitewash the current display by some progressives of the hammer and sickle as about "workers rights!" is part of that.

[ladyamylynn]

@nausicaa Yours is a nuanced take and I appreciate it.

[Aine]

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's opinions regarding the symbolism of totalitarian communist and fascist regimes that committed among the worst atrocities in modern history. I think my own views have become more textured and I appreciate the posters who have shone some light on my own blind spots and I'm sure those of others reading this. 

I think it's a true privilege to read the opinions of people from so many different backgrounds and life experiences that are expressed in such intelligent and thoughtful ways so thanks y'all  

[mango_fandango]

I know I’m reviving an old thread here, but I’ve found something pretty interesting. 

I randomly decided to google Melanie, as I noticed she doesn’t appear to have Facebook anymore. And I found her Quora profile. A lot of the questions she has answered are to do with Myers-Briggs stuff. I know many people think that MB is a load of baloney, but some of her answers are pretty interesting and insightful. 

For example, one of the questions is about which MBTI type she dislikes. Her answer is xSTJs. I recognised Erika in the description. And whaddaya know... a few questions down she reveals that Erika is an ESTJ. Even if MBTI is baloney, that’s pretty revealing. I always got the impression that Melanie was quite arty and into fiction when growing up, and Erika seemed to have been the complete opposite. It sounds like they may well have clashed quite a bit whilst she was growing up, and that cannot have been easy to live with. 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

6 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

I know I’m reviving an old thread here, but I’ve found something pretty interesting. 

I randomly decided to google Melanie, as I noticed she doesn’t appear to have Facebook anymore. And I found her Quora profile. A lot of the questions she has answered are to do with Myers-Briggs stuff. I know many people think that MB is a load of baloney, but some of her answers are pretty interesting and insightful. 

For example, one of the questions is about which MBTI type she dislikes. Her answer is xSTJs. I recognised Erika in the description. And whaddaya know... a few questions down she reveals that Erika is an ESTJ. Even if MBTI is baloney, that’s pretty revealing. I always got the impression that Melanie was quite arty and into fiction when growing up, and Erika seemed to have been the complete opposite. It sounds like they may well have clashed quite a bit whilst she was growing up, and that cannot have been easy to live with. 

 

She definitely seems to be more like her dad in politics. I wouldn’t be surprised if she was closer to Bob. BTW he’s your stereotypical annoying conservative “get off my lawn” type of middle aged guy on instagram. 

[mango_fandango]

Yeah I found him on FB and it’s a load of anti-librul memes etc. Just the usual kind of conservative/fundie thing. 

I know the family have every right to their privacy, but sometimes I do wonder what happened to them, how they are now etc. Erika shared all the details of their life with us for a long time so I guess it’s natural. Particularly since Erika was my gateway fundie. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

37 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

Yeah I found him on FB and it’s a load of anti-librul memes etc. Just the usual kind of conservative/fundie thing. 

I know the family have every right to their privacy, but sometimes I do wonder what happened to them, how they are now etc. Erika shared all the details of their life with us for a long time so I guess it’s natural. Particularly since Erika was my gateway fundie. 

I wonder too. And I come up with stuff in my head. Like Karen was closer to Erika than Bob. Because that’s so typical of the oldest girl in a big homeschooling fundie family. I think Melanie was close with Karen and her dad but now that Karen is gone, it’s just her dad. And he seems to prefer Brandon because Brandon is super into flying like Bob. My theory is that she spews her dad’s eyeroll worthy conservative crap to get closer to him. I feel bad for Melanie. I doubt she has the personality to run off and elope like Karen. I’m so happy for Karen. However Melanie must be pretty unhappy in that house without her. And since she’s described herself as an introvert, she might have trouble making new friends. Karen never had problems doing that even though they were both pretty isolated growing up with Erika. 

[Sicily]

I was reading the first thread on this and was horrified by the way Erika Shupe treated her kids. I never saw the blog and it's gone now. Anyway, I skipped ahead to this thread and the last to see what happened to Karen. I'm so glad to see she got away.

It was predicted in the first thread that both Karen and Anna Marie showed signs that they would get out later. It's lovely that has come to fruition for Karen, and I hope it does for her siblings too.

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 hours ago, Sicily said:

I was reading the first thread on this and was horrified by the way Erika Shupe treated her kids. I never saw the blog and it's gone now. Anyway, I skipped ahead to this thread and the last to see what happened to Karen. I'm so glad to see she got away.

It was predicted in the first thread that both Karen and Anna Marie showed signs that they would get out later. It's lovely that has come to fruition for Karen, and I hope it does for her siblings too.

I don’t vurrently hold a lot of hope for Melanie but I do hope Anna Marie gets out. The fact that she’s going to public school is probably helping a lot. Plus she has an older sister that got out to give her hope. 

[elliha]

I would do almost anything to get a full and clear update of the Shupe family's life now. They were my favorites, they were just the right level of normal and crazy that made them so darn intriguing. I do hope more of the kids get out and may spill the beans. I do think that the Shupes, even the older ones have a good chance of living a normal life if they want to, while they were home schooled they did have some contacts outside their world and while Erika was/is her own brand of nutty she did allow some more normal activitites and films for example. Now things seem to have relaxed from the little we have seen.

[Blessings of the Corn]

It's been a couple years since I saw Erika, but since she lives in the same area I do it's bound to happen again. I used to drive behind their van with their big FLOP sticker on the back which is actually how I found them, and eventually JF! I also would love an update.