Turpins 2- California Torture House (Graphic content discussed)

[faraway]

I'm not huge on homeschooling, if people have to homeschool because the schools are bad or there isn't appropriate education and care for the kids it's because their country is failing them.

IMO education is not only academics but also about the interaction in a classroom. There are always kids who have a more difficult time to fit in. But instead of pulling them out immediately there's supportive measures that can be taken and some kids even do great after a school change.

Because there was talk about Germany before: I am German myself and went to school there and I don't know a single person who wanted to homeschool or decided to leave the country for that reason. There are so many different school types in the country and I saw so many kids change school, repeat a grade, stay in kindergarten for one more year etc. There are exceptions in Germany, there are kids who are homeschooled because their parents fought in out in court. There need to be significant reasons though like ASD and bullying. 

One reason why I PERSONALLY wouldn't want to homeschool (apart from the fact that I couldn't provide the same level of education as teachers who have studied their respective subjects at university) is that I wouldn't want to sacrifice my career for that many years and I don't think my partner would either. It's usually the moms who homeschool and put their own careers on hold.

[Ozlsn]

3 hours ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

I'm not talking about developmental delays. The U.S. school system provides wonderful services for those. Let's say a child is academically gifted but emotionally too immature for kindergarten. Homeschooling for a year or two until the kid is ready to enter a classroom environment in 1st or 2nd grade might be ideal. Let's say a kid has cancer and going to school is just too much for a while. Or maybe a child transitioning to middle school is getting horrible anxiety from bullying and just needs a year or two away from the school system to recover their confidence. Or maybe your high schooler is getting into drugs at school so you keep them home to do substance abuse classes and separate them from those negative peers for a year. It's K-12 homeschooling where I see most of the problems. Pulling a kid out for a year or so here or there if circumstances require (a family trip to travel the world perhaps?) is fine by me.

Where I live there is a part of the education department that manages most of those scenarios - they provide distance education and support for families in various situations. I had never heard of 'homeschooling' as a term until relatively recently, it was always distance ed, and I've only recently met one person roughly my age who was what I would call homeschooled rather than following the distance ed course. Personally I don't see that some follow up on children being educated at home is a bad thing, but standardised testing just doesn't do it for me, whether that's in or out of the school system. It is however cheaper than other methods, which is why it gets used unfortunately.

[adidas]

Great post @Otto Titsling I agree with everything you said. 

While there are problems with the comparison I’m about to make, it’s the closest I feel expresses my thoughts at the moment. My thoughts might change though

IMO homeschooling needs registration and checks of some kind for accountability - similar to college/university. You can’t ‘uncollege’ or ‘ununiversity’ the same way you can unschool, you need to register and there is content which must be covered. The curriculum needs to be followed, then there are assignments/exams. There are minimum standards that students need to meet in order to pass.

You can be an external university student though, and gain your degree by doing all of the above, just as you can be homeschooled well and graduate with a well rounded education. 

Putting the above registration and those checks into place would be nearly impossible, I acknowledge that - I have no real solutions, I’ve just been ruminating after I read an article about it (it is admittedly very troublesome in parts).

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/homeschooling-allowed-abuse-of-13-children-to-carry-on-undetected/news-story/742a0c146d3412ff0e7928fef58f95c6

I have no clue about any rules and regulations involved in homeschooling in Australia, I’m coming from a place of absolute ignorance - it was never an option I was interested in pursuing and nobody in my circle of friends did it. So I’m not speaking from a place of experience or knowledge and I’m happy to hear from people in the know. 

[mango_fandango]

I wouldn’t homeschool purely because I wouldn’t be any good at it. Primary school stuff, maybe, but beyond that, nope.

I’ve heard of online schools, but they cost a ton of money, especially when it comes to GCSE/A-Levels. Not as much as a private school, but it stacks up if you’re going to do it for seven years 11-18, plus if you’re gonna pay to do extracurriculars... if there are serious/genuine reasons for doing it eg mental health issues/SEN/etc, fine, but I wouldn’t choose to do it when I have a perfectly decent, FREE way of ensuring my kid is educated. 

Plus I would’ve gone crazy if I’d had to stay at home all the time. Even if you did an extra-curricular activity every school day for an hour, that’s not much. You’re still at home most of the time. Yes I had a tough time at secondary school socially (not bullied, just found it difficult to make friends) and my organisation was atrocious, but that was mainly due to undiagnosed ASD. I actually quite *liked* the routine and structure at school. (I do know many people with ASD have problems, I’m not knocking them). 

[Ozlsn]

6 minutes ago, adidas said:

 I have no clue about any rules and regulations involved in homeschooling in Australia, I’m coming from a place of absolute ignorance - it was never an option I was interested in pursuing and nobody in my circle of friends did it. So I’m not speaking from a place of experience or knowledge and I’m happy to hear from people in the know. 

I did a quick search on a couple of states. The Victorian requirements are apparently that the child be registered as being homeschooled if they are of legsl school age (6-17) and not enrolled in distance education or a school. From what I can see NSW is similar. 

[Nikedagain?]

My hat is off to the people who homeschool and do it up right! I could never do it.

I have had children on opposite ends of the educational spectrum. A couple that were very bright and are great students. I could have never kept them engaged. How would I teach AP chemistry?? And then my level 3 ASD child? Just no. She needs school for so much more than just academics. It would be just detrimental to her and probably to me. 

But more power to them!

[Walking Cat Bed]

I'm not a parent or a teacher; I made it through most of a teacher's education program before I realized that I just don't have the temperament. (I'm about six months from finishing an MLIS, and plan to stick with the "tech services" side in an academic or corporate library -- managing orders and records, digitizing and cataloging, all of the background library stuff that makes it easier for the public/public-facing librarians to use available resources.) 

The biggest thing I learned in my teacher's ed program is that everyone is different and everyone learns/works best in a different environment. Some people do really, really well with independent learning/work, others need very defined structure, and most are somewhere in between. I'm not comfortable completely outlawing an educational environment because abusers chose that environment as a way to conceal and intensify abuse. (Abusers tend to find ways to be in power, which can be homeschooling or in a public school.) Going along with that, I don't believe that having children makes someone a natural teacher; it's about inherent skills and temperament just as much as learned skills or determination. 

 frfdfr tfrn fdnhgvffd (One of my cats clearly has opinions about this.)

[Aine]

4 hours ago, bird said:

This is what I wanted to ask! A lot of people defending homeschooling write about children with special or additional needs not fitting into mainstream schools. My question is surely these are the children who need specialist schools with teachers trained to meet their educational needs? Are there not schools equipped for children with things like ASD etc? Why do parents feel that homeschooling is their best option? 

I haven't completely caught up so someone else may have said this but countries like Germany and many European countries are much smaller than the US and Australia. I've worked with children with ASD and also with kids with lots of other special needs in both countries. Australia does a far better job of it than where I currently live in the US, which  is a very poor and mostly rural state, but even in Australia we often talk about the "tyranny of distance". If you live in a  big city like Sydney or Melbourne in Australia or in a city like New York in the US (where I used to live), you have access to a lot of resources, including specialized schools with highly trained teachers who have often done Masters level training in special education and are set up to manage complex and varying needs. However, if you live in a rural town in Australia, you may be a 4-5 hour drive from the next nearest town, which might not be that much bigger than the one you're currently living in. You are not going to find schools highly equipped for children with special needs in these areas and moving is not always a viable financial option for people. The public school in your town is likely to be under-resourced and the teachers are likely very young/early in their careers due to education systems encouraging graduates to "cut their teeth" in rural areas with the promise of them being given preferential treatment in the hiring process when they apply to a school where they want to be (usually in a city and in an affluent area), paying off some or all of their student debt, and/or much higher pay than they'd get in a school where a lot of teachers would like to work. As a result, even though public schools have to try and meet the needs of all the children, many fall through the cracks. 

It's way worse in the state that I am in currently. I despair for some of the parents of the kids I have worked with here who quite literally do not have services to even access basically anywhere in the state. Some of the schools I've done contract assessments in have maybe 15 very old computers in there entire school. Paint is peeling, there are holes in the walls, nearly every student qualifies for free breakfast and lunch, the textbooks are up to 20 years old etc. Also, many of the teachers in the poorest areas that are struggling the most in my current state are from Teach for America- they're young and idealistic and they really work their butts off, which is awesome, but they're not highly experienced and they'll stay for their required amount of time (I think it's 12 months or maybe 2 years) and they're out of there. So you have constantly new teachers who needs to build rapport all over again and you get gaps in the education of the kids because they are not always sure what has been previously covered. Yeah, they might have a special education class but the teacher is often not highly trained, the children have extremely diverse needs and most of them don't even have a diagnosis or haven't been properly assessed despite being significantly impaired, they rely on volunteers in the community for help as aides because there is no funding for paid aides with experience etc. You often have quite highly functioning kiddos thrown in a room with very low functioning kids and really, it honestly becomes more of a 'holding room' and they're just being babysat. If I lived in my current state in the future and had a child with special needs, there is a very high chance that I would homeschool even though there is basically no other situation I can nearly think of where I would even consider homeschooling and even though I almost never think homeschooling is an ideal option for any child in a perfect world. But the world is not perfect  

 

[Queen]

20 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Thank you for this. It really, really bothers me how homeschooling activists have been pushing for a lack of regulations. Even purely on an education level I think that's a problem. Growing up as a homeschooler I at least had to take a standardized test every few years to show I was getting an adequate education, but now my state has eliminated even that paltry oversight thanks to homeschooling lobbyists. I have seen far too many cases of homeschooling families severely neglecting their children's education to be okay with that.

And then, like we've been discussing, it makes it much easier for parents to hide abuse. I hadn't seen the statistics on child torture and homeschooling. That's incredibly sad.

I have seen several tweeters the last few days saying "the government can't dictate what I [as a homeschool teacher] should teach my kids!" They just baffle me. In my county we have a national curriculum that every school; public, private or at home, has to follow. Did I mention Finnish schools are often ranked among the very best in the world when it comes to knowledge? A friend of mine had a high school biology teacher who was a creationist, but still she didn't teach creationism, she taught the theory of evolution, because presenting unscientific ideas as facts is not appropriate or even allowed in the classroom unless it's Religion class. 

[Suz8710]

Sorry to switch from the homeschooling discussion...I finally watched one of the wedding renewals and the hero (survivor #8) identifies herself in it. In a strange foreshadowing, the Elvis impersonator immediately after says "remember these three." 

Watching it after hearing all the detailed abuse was very unsettling to me, but I was curious. Who would've known that only 4.5 years(ish) later this well mannered, petite whisp of a girl would be the one to take down two purely evil individuals?

Until we know all the facts (which we may never know), I credit her siblings as well - they may have given her the inner strength to be able to carry out the escape and carry on, even as the other sibling turned back. They may have also found the cell phone or figured out it could still dial 911. The Turpin 13 are all heroes in my book.

 

[Crazy Enough to Join]

5 minutes ago, Queen said:

 A friend of mine had a high school biology teacher who was a creationist, but still she didn't teach creationism, she taught the theory of evolution, because presenting unscientific ideas as facts is not appropriate or even allowed in the classroom unless it's Religion class. 

Why do you guys always harp on this? There are plenty of PhD scientists who believe the scientific evidence points to Intelligent Design. You can look at the facts and decide for yourself, but it's silly to paint it as the highschool dropouts against the PhD scientists with Intelligent Design vs. Evolution. PhD scientists are divided in what they believe.

[Otto Titsling]

21 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

My hat is off to the people who homeschool and do it up right! I could never do it.

I have had children on opposite ends of the educational spectrum. A couple that were very bright and are great students. I could have never kept them engaged. How would I teach AP chemistry?? And then my level 3 ASD child? Just no. She needs school for so much more than just academics. It would be just detrimental to her and probably to me. 

But more power to them!

My severely autistic daughter loathes summer, winter break, long weekends, etc. While I try to keep a decent schedule for her, I just can't be as regimented as school is. She loves her routine there (not to mention her aide that she has had for years who spoils her outrageously at times). I, too, admire parents who can do it and do it well!

But for me, teaching special needs children, much like brain surgery and sausage-making, should be left to the professionals.

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

3 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I have no problem at all with the courtroom shackling and hope that the irony wasn't lost on the monsters. No apologies here. Besides, its SOP in many courtrooms, I never see a black man who isn't shackled regardless of the charges. 

I’ve been in many courtrooms with unshackled black men, including the day I had to face the black man who stole $25,000 worth of stuff from my house while I was out working. He stood right in front of me. Unshackled. I’ve been on three juries, including two for murder first, and those two black men accused (and later found guilty) of murder were not shackled. I would assume your statement comes from watching too much sensationalized news. 

[HarleyQuinn]

Today was hectic at work and I forgot to eat lunch. As soon as I got home I went straight outside to play with little Quinns. I got super shaky and realized I'd only had coffee all day and ran inside to grab a cereal bar. Then I started thinking of these kids and how they didn't have that luxury. 

I've said it already but again, fuck these people.

[Hisey]

On 1/19/2018 at 5:33 AM, Rowan said:

Anyone else feel bad for the public defenders? They have to do their job but it would be hard for anyone to try to defend this horrific situation. Monster #2's actions in court would make his job even more sickening.

 

Trust me, PDs deal with stuff like this every day. This is slightly worse than normal, but nothing really out of the ordinary. These children are, thank God, still alive.

[Aine]

28 minutes ago, Crazy Enough to Join said:

Why do you guys always harp on this? There are plenty of PhD scientists who believe the scientific evidence points to Intelligent Design. You can look at the facts and decide for yourself, but it's silly to paint it as the highschool dropouts against the PhD scientists with Intelligent Design vs. Evolution. PhD scientists are divided in what they believe.

There is a difference between "intelligent design" and creationism. There are some but not plenty PhD level scientists who do maintain religious belief and they believe that their higher power/being did intelligently design and have a hand in evolution. That God created the process. I think that's what the vast majority of religious people in general believe and even the Pope has endorsed this. I have no issue with that line of thinking even though it is not aligned with my own beliefs. 

Creationism in the way we're all talking about it (I think...) is the absolute denial of evolution and that humans and dinosaurs lived together and all the fossils that support the theory of evolution are there to "test their faith" and that scientists are part of a big conspiracy to fool everyone with all their evidence for evolution and how old the Earth is and carbon dating etc. 

I believe in the last wide polling that was done of PhD level scientists, over 90% did not identify with a religion (agnostic or atheist or spiritual). Those that actually practice SCIENCE, which does involve carbon dating and understanding how fossils come to be and how you can even demonstrate evolution in short periods of time with some specimens, and are religious generally don't struggle to reconcile that their God created these amazing and complex processes that have allowed so many living things to adapt and survive in such wondrous and genius ways in so many hugely varied environments around the world. 

[mamallama]

Thank you, Aine.  I was trying to say the same thing without getting angry.  One of the reasons I fear government involvement in homeschooling is because sometimes it feels like we are one election away from a government that would require kids to study Christianity in place of science and history.  

 

[Otto Titsling]

If anyone is interested, there is a pic on Twitter that identifies the adult children. I saved it, but I'm not sure if I am allowed to post it here. I don't know how to link. 

I searched Turpin family and scrolled down a few times and found it. 

[Ais]

I have tried and failed to write a sensible well thought reply to this comment on a bbc news story http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42751715?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

People like this are why so many abuse victims don’t come forward. I’m sorry, but there is feck all “convenient” about any of this 

 

[truthseeker]

1 hour ago, Suz8710 said:

Sorry to switch from the homeschooling discussion...I finally watched one of the wedding renewals and the hero (survivor #8) identifies herself in it. In a strange foreshadowing, the Elvis impersonator immediately after says "remember these three." 

 

Where did you see it?  I've been trying to find the video ...

[luv2laugh]

I think it's important to increase regulations on homeschooling. It's not regulated and I am sickened by the unschooling movement and quite honestly, I think "unschooling" is child abuse. IMO, it's a cop-out for the parent to be lazy, not have to teach, and enforce their own agenda onto the child.

Bare minimum requirements, IMO:

• Twice yearly standardized exams to make sure they're actually learning
• Must be enforcing the common core curriculum. Bible study & other homeschool electives fine, but they must be learning what's in the common core!
• Evaluated by a education specialist from the state each year. IEPs and customized plans for kids with disabilities can be gone over with the specialist.
  • Certainly, those should be bare minimum requirements and I don't consider it close to government oversight.
• OT, but it would be neat if kids can telecommute into a public school classroom and watch the instructors via the video similar to how college online courses are. I don't know if this is done or can be considered in each case.

Horror story time: My two older 2nd cousins, let's call them Kate and Matt, were raised by a hippie mother who home schooled them. She literally did nothing and I don't think they have a GED. They rode horses and played outside every single day. Kate was insanely, ridiculously lucky to marry into an extremely wealthy philanthropist family and they send their children to a swanky private school. Matt however, is not doing so well and my heart breaks for him. He's young, been divorced, and struggles with some dark issues. He lives in a trailer and does odd jobs for Kate's wealthy family she married into and their horses on their ranch style mansion. It's pathetically and tragically disturbing.

However, I also think that teachers need to stop rushing through lessons when other kids are getting left behind. That's NOT learning and it's NOT fair. I think the common core has helped to put more pressure on the teachers to make sure every student is understanding what's going on. I also think that teachers should be held account on performance. It's uncomfortable to know that some teachers are continuing to have their students struggle yet continue to pop in movies and assign group work projects instead of educate and still be there teaching for decades. "Interactive, dynamic learning" my ass, it's lazy teaching so the teacher can text or catch up on gossip with Mr/Ms. Marple in the hall. I say that example from COUNTLESS of personal experiences. The states that issue the tough standardized exams and the school districts need to be on the same page. If one is not measuring up, changes need to be made.

• THIS problem is EXACTLY WHY homeschoolers (taught by well-meaning parents) score MUCH HIGHER on SATs than private/public schoolers! Homeschoolers focus on what's covered on the exam and CUT OUT THE BULLSHIT. Many, NOT ALL, teachers add in "busy work" or worse, movies and group activities so they get a break!

For the record, I support public schools & teachers greatly! It's a sore topic since I was a left behind child in public school. I consider the snobby fundie-lite Betsy Devos to be the devil incarnate with how she supports these private, for-profit schools to continue operating as a corrupt business & bankrupt families while failing kids.

[Otto Titsling]

@Ais tinfoil hat-wearing assholes who listen to Infowars and believe that Sandy Hook was a staged shooting. 

How those families haven't pooled their money and hired a couple of guys to take that Alex Jones out back and beat the shit out of him is beyond me. 

[metheglyn]

I had a third grade teacher who did not believe in negative numbers. I mean, she didn't believe they even existed and told me so, despite my having learned to use them in 2nd grade at a different school. Aside from me and one other student, everyone else in my third grade classroom used the 2nd grade math textbook, and she hated that we were actually at, or even ahead of our grade level. That teacher caused me to hate math until 9th grade, and contributed to my having to essentially be taught algebra by my mother at the same time I was taking it at school in 8th grade, almost as though I was being homeschooled for that class. (NB: Half the class ended up having to repeat algebra in 9th grade, so it wasn't just me that needed help. Thankfully, I got that help and passed.) 

While I had friends who did completely homeschool, and theoretically homeschooling might have been better for me emotionally in third grade than staying with that teacher, learning algebra from my mother taught both of us that if my mother had ever tried to formally homeschool me (my mother did actually teach in schools years before I was born, so was qualified) it would have been an utter disaster. I love my mother dearly, but due to specific personality issues around learning and how I handle feeling ignorant we do *NOT* gel well as a teacher-pupil pair.

I support the idea of homeschooling in some circumstances, but there are so many factors that need to be taken into consideration to make sure it goes well for all involved. Even the best of intentions, curriculum, and support can lead to poor outcomes if the parent and child don't do well together in a shared academic environment.

[bird]

1 hour ago, Aine said:

If I lived in my current state in the future and had a child with special needs, there is a very high chance that I would homeschool even though there is basically no other situation I can nearly think of where I would even consider homeschooling and even though I almost never think homeschooling is an ideal option for any child in a perfect world. But the world is not perfect  

 

Thank you for the thought provoking replies to my question about the provision of adequate education for special/ additional needs. It's hard to comprehend that the country with the largest economy in the world has areas that are so poor or underfunded that no services are provided. Obviously I understand that it's a very big country but I suppose it's easy to forget how diverse it is too. Like a previous answer to one of my questions reminded me that some areas are so remote you can't even reach them by road. 

[FoodieNotFundie]

48 minutes ago, truthseeker said:

Where did you see it?  I've been trying to find the video ...

YouTube "David and Louise Elvis Las Vegas". It should be the first one that pops up. It's a long video, but if you're looking for that moment specifically, it's just after 16 minutes in (around 16:05).