Turpins 2- California Torture House (Graphic content discussed)

[3SecondSideHugger]

18 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

It depends on where they live. I can tell you from experience that it absolutely was the best choice to homeschool my son who has autism, information processing disorder, and dylexia/dyscalculia. I asked the school in January 2014 to evaluate him for special education services. They did, slowly, and then told me he was not eligible because he was normal. He was failing 3rd grade. He couldn't read. We live outside of a small, rural community. There are no dedicated special ed teachers in the K-8 school nearest us. He wouldn't have been eligible in the next town over, 20 miles away, either, because they share the same district psychologist, who declared him perfectly fine.

We removed him from the school in March, and I went back to basic reading and math with him. I tested him on all of the math concepts for kindergarten, 1st, and 2nd grade before we went on to 3rd and 4th grade. We repeated anything he struggled with. I researched reading programs for dyslexic students and worked through an intensive program with him. I took him several times a month to the city, 2 hours away, to be evaluated by psychiatrists and neuropsychologists at the children's hospital, and incorporated their advice into what we did at home.

He hated school when we pulled him out, because school kind of sucks when you're flunking, so we based his science and history lessons on things he really liked - cars, planes, and baseball. He could describe the Bernoulli effect, talk about how Jackie Robinson changed baseball, and describe the basic parts of a motor.

By the time he went back into public school, he could read and do math on grade level. He was reading and writing for fun, something he had never done before.

Even now, with a documented learning disability (thanks to the children's hospital) that qualifies him automatically for an IEP, we had to practically fight with the school to give him any time with a para. He gets 30 minutes with a trained special education teacher per week. She is only at the school once a week. She also doesn't seem to understand his background of neglect, and has been asking around about whether we feed him enough, so I'm expected a call from CPS at some point. Not a problem, because I'll just let them watch him eat 7 bowls of soup for dinner and say he's still hungry. Case closed. The para he can work with for an hour and a half per day has only a high school diploma. I don't say that to be rude, but many people assume these are highly trained specialists. They're not, at least not here.

We live in one of the "no oversight" states. I know there are families that don't do much, homeschool-wise. However, four of our homeschool group families have sent kids to public high school in the last 2 years. All of them have transitioned seamlessly, with no need to repeat classes. I guarantee my son received a better education at home than he got or is getting in public school. Sports are the only thing keeping my older kids in public school.

I'm also getting ready to teach another homeschool writing class, where students come to my house weekly to work on essays, creative writing, contrasting books the group has read recently, etc. I have a waiting list for this class currently.

And I bet the para is making minimum wage with terrible benefits like in my district! I’m a specialist that does contract work part time for one school while I work in a  medical center part time as well. The full time salaried position or my speciality, which requires 2 full years (6 semesters) of courses including Neuroanatomy, Upper Airway/Digestive disorders and other medically complex conditions IN ADDITION to 500+ hour full time internships with a masters cost of around 50k... well, the salary for this position in my nearest school district is a whopping $39k. They don’t pay any of your insurance premium btw which starts at $235  month. You’re not going to attract the best staff for peanuts. It really is sad. 

[DashwoodDaring]

Hi, delurking (and finally registered) to offer two tokens on topic. (I’ve enjoyed your discussions on Mormon polygamy and polygamists, but came to them months or years late. I grew up adjacent to LDS, FLDS and other LDS fractals.) 

1) We were househunting about five years ago, and I recognized the type of development as a KB Homes project, so I looked up the plans. (KB usually only has 6 or 8 per development, they reuse the plans everywhere, with different facings/paint to differentiate them.) The Turpin house is Residence Two, with the Enlarged Garage option (and I think the covered back patio). Link here: http://kbhome.blu-plan.com/plan/residence-two_45 No basement; Inland Empire caliche and seismic activity do not permit basements. I’ve been in a local version of that house; the master bedroom is ginormous, but the others are no more than 12’ x 12’, maybe 10’ x 10’. Three in one of those bedrooms would be tight quarters, even with a bunk bed. 

That house was built early in the development (2013) while most of the other houses, including neighbors, are newer; most were built in 2015 and 2016. One of the odd social behaviors of new development is that newcomers tend to almost cede the territory to the earlier residents. Think of it like getting on a crowded elevator - you’re far more careful to not intrude into someone’s personal space than when you’re the first person in the elevator. 

 It’s quite likely nobody in the neighborhood saw Monsters 1&2 move in because everyone came after, and never realized the preternaturally quiet people were dangerously strange. The children look enough alike, at least from a distance or in passing, that if I hadn’t seen the group photo early on, and only saw 3-6 of them at a time, I might not immediately guess there were 13. (And I’m sensitized to huge families; I’m the eldest of eight and grew up in the Corridor.)

One other piece about that house: most new developments have HOAs, if only for trash pickup, and street and common area maintenance. This development does not have an HOA; all real estate listings for the neighborhood in the past year have prominently advertised the lack of HOA. I’ll bet a donut the monsters made an intentional decision to avoid an HOA, since HOAs have a reputation for interfering and code enforcement.

2) What’s got me right now? Four vehicles. Four. The van makes sense, both practically with 15 people, and because it’s a status marker in super-size families. (They aren’t cheap. Poorer large families tend to have smaller vehicles and make the eldest start driving as soon as possible because, while the van ends up being cheaper in the long run, it’s immediately cheaper to acquire more small, used cars than finance one big new one (and make the eldest children chauffeur the younger ones). It’s the Sam Vimes theory of Boots as applied to cars.) One car for Monster 1’s commute. A second sedan for quick trips and short commuting when only 1-4 people need to go; those vans are not fun to park and even the most efficient ones are far thirstier than any sedan. But why the fourth car? Monsters 1&2 certainly wouldn’t let anyone else get a driver’s license. That fourth car is symbolic. What of? I don’t know. But it mattered enough to buy and maintain. 

[nausicaa]

@Aine Just looking at the fourteen members of the Creation Research Society's Board of Directors, things are already questionable. 

-One has a PhD from a diploma mill (Columbia Pacific University)

-Two have PhDs from Bob Jones University 

-Six have PhDs from accredited universities, but in completely unrelated subjects, including four in physics, one a professional (non-research) PhD in veterinary sciences, one in computer science (WTF? How did that guy even get in there), and one in atmospheric science.

That leaves five members with actual PhDs in relevant fields from accredited universities (I couldn't tell you how rigorous their PhD programs are though). And that's the BOARD OF DIRECTORS. How sketchy are the credentials of those 700 members?

Sorry creationist poster. That dog don't hunt.  

ETA: Digging around shows me there has been even more shadiness in terms of falsifying credentials. Strange that these Christian men would not want to adhere more to honesty and uprightness... Also strange that if there is so much evidence of YEC, that there aren't more scientists in rigorous programs discovering this "obvious" truth for themselves...

[SoybeanQueen]

20 minutes ago, FecundFundieFundus said:

@FundamentallyShocked

Pretty sure you're the mom I aspire to be, @SoybeanQueen. I'm petrified of navigating the school system and fighting for the best IEP. 

You'll do fine, I'm sure. There's a special education expert, Amanda Morin, who has books about how to work with the school and advocate for your child. I highly recommend her books. She also writes for Understood.org

6 minutes ago, 3SecondSideHugger said:

You’re not going to attract the best staff for peanuts. It really is sad. 

That's true, too.

Back to closer to topic - I ponder what kind of oversight I would put into place to help catch cases like the Turpins while leaving everyone else to craft their own educational plans. I don't really want my state to add testing requirements or licensed teacher check-ins, because out of the dozens of homeschool families I know, there are maybe 2 I can think of that aren't doing as good or better job than public school.

What if there was some requirement of being involved in a regular activity with other children and adults outside of the house? Combine that with a law that all adults are mandated reporters. Perhaps a requirement that the child must be seen by a doctor for a well child check once a year. These kinds of requirements would help make sure someone laid eyes on the kids occasionally, but they don't take away the freedom to customize an amazing education that looks nothing like public school.

[FecundFundieFundus]

Thank you, @SoybeanQueen, I added it to my Amazon reading list

[Bretta]

12 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

Back to closer to topic - I ponder what kind of oversight I would put into place to help catch cases like the Turpins while leaving everyone else to craft their own educational plans. I don't really want my state to add testing requirements or licensed teacher check-ins, because out of the dozens of homeschool families I know, there are maybe 2 I can think of that aren't doing as good or better job than public school.

 

Yes, this is extremely difficult. We want people to have the freedom to make good (if different) decisions but not to make terrible ones! Homeschoolers usually exist on a spectrum - those who do exceptionally well, those who are average/pretty much the same as public schools, and the nutcases like the Turpins who are abusive/negligent/incompetent.

A lot of fundie homeschooling families fall somewhere between mediocre to terrible, mainly because they don't put the children first but their ideologies/visions, basically their big, fat, lazy egos.

[luv2laugh]

25 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

This is exactly why many U.S. homeschoolers don't want the state or nation to have more oversight into what happens in their home school. The public school system is broken in many ways. Why would I want their requirements put on to my (hypothetical) homeschooled kid? Also, I disagree that homeschool parents are just teaching to the test for ACT/SAT. Just like any other student, homeschooled kids can take test prep courses. My public schooled niece is taking an ACT prep class in her public school now.

As for the tele-classes mentioned (don't recall if that was you or someone else), that is already possible. Synchronous video classes are used in some of the online public and private schools. However, synchronous learning takes away a lot of the advantage of scheduling freedom in homeschool. I looked at the k12 online schools when I thought we might be living abroad for a while. Ultimately I decided that the live video classes would render spontaneous adventures impossible, and I didn't want that when we would be in a place that offered so many opportunities for learning outside of the house.

I know a family that does their schooling by synchronous teleclasses and videos.  I could never do it. There are so many fun ways to learn besides sitting in front of a screen. Even in our small community there are co-ops to do classes with a lab component or to be able to discuss books with other students around the same age or grade level.

I mentioned the telecommuting in my original post. Homeschooling should be regulated to make sure that kids are able to score well on state standardized exams which are evidence they are learning basic concepts equally each year. 

Quite honestly, homeschooling in my opinion will become a thing of the past. In order to be a devoted homeschooling parent, one MUST stay at home and not work since it’s a full time job. With feminism, workplace equality improving, and economic conditions, most houses are two income families. There’s no way homeschooling will continue to work. 

5 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

I think it's important to increase regulations on homeschooling. It's not regulated and I am sickened by the unschooling movement and quite honestly, I think "unschooling" is child abuse. IMO, it's a cop-out for the parent to be lazy, not have to teach, and enforce their own agenda onto the child.

Bare minimum requirements, IMO:

• Twice yearly standardized exams to make sure they're actually learning
• Must be enforcing the common core curriculum. Bible study & other homeschool electives fine, but they must be learning what's in the common core!
• Evaluated by a education specialist from the state each year. IEPs and customized plans for kids with disabilities can be gone over with the specialist.
  • Certainly, those should be bare minimum requirements and I don't consider it close to government oversight.
• OT, but it would be neat if kids can telecommute into a public school classroom and watch the instructors via the video similar to how college online courses are. I don't know if this is done or can be considered in each case.

Horror story time: My two older 2nd cousins, let's call them Kate and Matt, were raised by a hippie mother who home schooled them. She literally did nothing and I don't think they have a GED. They rode horses and played outside every single day. Kate was insanely, ridiculously lucky to marry into an extremely wealthy philanthropist family and they send their children to a swanky private school. Matt however, is not doing so well and my heart breaks for him. He's young, been divorced, and struggles with some dark issues. He lives in a trailer and does odd jobs for Kate's wealthy family she married into and their horses on their ranch style mansion. It's pathetically and tragically disturbing.

However, I also think that teachers need to stop rushing through lessons when other kids are getting left behind. That's NOT learning and it's NOT fair. I think the common core has helped to put more pressure on the teachers to make sure every student is understanding what's going on. I also think that teachers should be held account on performance. It's uncomfortable to know that some teachers are continuing to have their students struggle yet continue to pop in movies and assign group work projects instead of educate and still be there teaching for decades. "Interactive, dynamic learning" my ass, it's lazy teaching so the teacher can text or catch up on gossip with Mr/Ms. Marple in the hall. I say that example from COUNTLESS of personal experiences. The states that issue the tough standardized exams and the school districts need to be on the same page. If one is not measuring up, changes need to be made.

• THIS problem is EXACTLY WHY homeschoolers (taught by well-meaning parents) score MUCH HIGHER on SATs than private/public schoolers! Homeschoolers focus on what's covered on the exam and CUT OUT THE BULLSHIT. Many, NOT ALL, teachers add in "busy work" or worse, movies and group activities so they get a break!

For the record, I support public schools & teachers greatly! It's a sore topic since I was a left behind child in public school. I consider the snobby fundie-lite Betsy Devos to be the devil incarnate with how she supports these private, for-profit schools to continue operating as a corrupt business & bankrupt families while failing kids.

Another thing- I disagree that parents should have to be doing work with the kids after school. Of course most loving and devoted parents will be around to help but it’s the teacher’s job to be teaching the kids. Tired and hungry parents coming home from work have to focus on feeding the kids and destressing, not preoccupied with busy work because the teacher was too unprepared to teach that day. Something must change so children stop getting left behind and I think common core is a good start. More teachers must face pressure to perform because I think this is the problem combined with stressful family environments and bullying. It’s a bad “triple whammy”.

[DashwoodDaring]

16 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

Back to closer to topic - I ponder what kind of oversight I would put into place to help catch cases like the Turpins while leaving everyone else to craft their own educational plans. I don't really want my state to add testing requirements or licensed teacher check-ins, because out of the dozens of homeschool families I know, there are maybe 2 I can think of that aren't doing as good or better job than public school.

The thing is, the homeschooling families who are neglecting and abusing their children won’t be the ones you know. They won’t join a collective exchange or do group activities, or if they do, they’ll either control the group, or cycle through groups until they find one they can dominate. That’s why they isolate their children - they want control. 

Most people have the best interests of their child(ren) in mind when they make decisions for their child. But when we make laws that assume those being regulated have the best interests and intentions, we make laws that are incredibly fragile and easy to exploit. I’m glad you have great intentions. Your intentions are not universal, and should not be the basis of law. 

Six month assessment exams or quarterly home visits may be an inconvenience for the majority of home school parents and students, but a) if they’re the price of not having to wake up at 5:15 to get the kid to school at 6:30 (or whatever local daily inconvenience equivalent) and b ) they ensure that the kiddo is both meeting expectations and is being appropriately challenged (which is the harder task, especially for talented kids) and c) protect the kids who need it... Why is this such a difficult ask? It’s not all that different from expecting emissions testing on cars. (Except children are more precious than cars.) 

For me, it comes down to, “hey, homeschool parents, you’re not so special that you get excused the price of being part of society, which sometimes means doing things we would rather not do. Stop asking to be more equal than the rest of us.” 

[Sideways]

5 hours ago, FoodieNotFundie said:

YouTube "David and Louise Elvis Las Vegas". It should be the first one that pops up. It's a long video, but if you're looking for that moment specifically, it's just after 16 minutes in (around 16:05).

MY EDIT:  (Sideways)  At 17:50 David is asked to repeat, "I won't be cruel".  

Spoiler

 

 

[Rachel333]

My family has moved to a state with fairly strict regulations on homeschooling, and my mom says she actually really likes it. Homeschoolers have to meet certain requirements, compile a portfolio of what they've done every year, and have a professional look over the portfolio. It's a lot of work, but it should be a lot of work to educate your child, and my mom feels like it helps her stay on track and on schedule. (It's hard to do that purely on your own and even with families who do try to homeschool well there's a huge problem with getting extremely behind schedule.)

My parents are little unusual among homeschooling parents though in that they actually are both well-qualified to teach; my dad's a college professor and my mom has a master's degree in education.

I personally am not a big fan of homeschooling for many reasons, but I think it can be a good option for some families and should remain legal. I just want to see oversight that makes it more difficult for parents to neglect their children's education and/or otherwise abuse them. I haven't seen anyone say that homeschooling caused this situation with the Turpins, but it definitely helped it go undetected for as long as it did.

[MarblesMom]

24 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I disagree that parents should have to be doing work with the kids after school.

Wow, I thought this was our job as parents, to help the kids with schoolwork when they came home, regardless of our needs of hunger or exhaustion from our adult days.

Did I miss a memo?

[LiLSeaWitch]

I hated the public school system my children were in and we moved to this area because it is the best in the state. Yes, academically my children received a great education but the bullying in the high school was off the chart. My son has always been quiet and extremely intelligent, a self described nerd. He got bullied a lot but not as much as his friends because he is 6’2” so not a small kid.  The beginning of his senior year one of his friends committed suicide, he flat out refused to go back to school. He was over it, frankly up until that point we had no idea how bad it was. He eventually (2 months) went back to school and was able to catch up and graduate on time (with one of his best “nerd” friends earning Valedictorian) the school worked with us but we did have to threaten getting a lawyer because we felt the school overlooked the bullying. 

I explain this to say. Looking back I wish I had homeschooled my son, it took 2 years of therapy after high school for him to even be social again. He still has anxiety issues. I have looked into it for my nephew and there are a lot of good homeschooling programs out there. In our area NOW (wasn’t available when my kids were in school), there is online public school. It’s free, same curriculum as public school. Some of the subjects actually have an online classroom, the kids sign in and the teacher delivers a verbal lesson with a virtual whiteboard. The student has a button they can press if they need to ask a question. The teacher responds (presses some button on her end) to the student and they can either verbally ask or type in the questions.  However for final testing for the semester the children have to attend final exams. If your child qualifies, final testing can be done at home but still administered by a school official (in person) at the students home. I attended the county seminar for parents and care givers for online school.  They decided to send my nephew to school, leaving online as an option if he has problems.  So far he is doing great.

I do think homeschooling should remain an option, like I said, I should have homeschooled my son. Online school would have been great for him. In fact public online might be a good middle ground. My daughter did fine in the same school but they are totally different children. Public school is run as one size fits all but that is just not the case.  

[Aine]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

@Aine Just looking at the fourteen members of the Creation Research Society's Board of Directors, things are already questionable. 

-One has a PhD from a diploma mill (Columbia Pacific University)

-Two have PhDs from Bob Jones University 

-Six have PhDs from accredited universities, but in completely unrelated subjects, including four in physics, one a professional (non-research) PhD in veterinary sciences, one in computer science (WTF? How did that guy even get in there), and one in atmospheric science.

That leaves five members with actual PhDs in relevant fields from accredited universities (I couldn't tell you how rigorous their PhD programs are though). And that's the BOARD OF DIRECTORS. How sketchy are the credentials of those 700 members?

Sorry creationist poster. That dog don't hunt.  

ETA: Digging around shows me there has been even more shadiness in terms of falsifying credentials. Strange that these Christian men would not want to adhere more to honesty and uprightness... Also strange that if there is so much evidence of YEC, that there aren't more scientists in rigorous programs discovering this "obvious" truth for themselves...

Thank you, @nausicaa for doing the research that my very tired and unwell self wasn't feeling up to on this particular night. It's much how I expected and I'm happy to know that my hunch and lots of anecdotal extrapolations were right (and I did concede they were anecdotal). I have read many studies and articles on this topic (religiosity in academia and in the sciences) and it is also one of my pet interests to read about people with either legit higher degrees who went off the deep end somewhere along the way (hello Dr Oz, Christiane Northrup etc) or those who gain a following by espousing pseudoscience using fake or exaggerated credentials (e.g. Dr Edward Group from Alex Jones). I can only look at that whole area in small doses because it makes me incredibly mad that these people do so much damage. 

[FundamentallyShocked]

1 hour ago, Bretta said:

A lot of fundie homeschooling families fall somewhere between mediocre to terrible, mainly because they don't put the children first but their ideologies/visions, basically their big, fat, lazy egos.

BAM!! Exactly. When you homeschool, the goal has got to be to provide the education for your child, not to use it to raise an army of like-minded robots (or robtos, if you are into Bro. Ween).

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

Quite honestly, homeschooling in my opinion will become a thing of the past. In order to be a devoted homeschooling parent, one MUST stay at home and not work since it’s a full time job. With feminism, workplace equality improving, and economic conditions, most houses are two income families. There’s no way homeschooling will continue to work.

Some of us work outside the home and homeschool. It's called nights and weekends. I worked my backside off to balance being home with kids all day and bringing in enough $$ to live. I know several moms who are doing the same thing (and not MLM sales either....don't get me started on PlexHell). We also made some painful choices on how to spend the money we had. It can be done; it takes work and discipline.

[Otto Titsling]

@DashwoodDaring I like some of the points you bring to the discussion. 

The health department ensures that bathrooms and kitchen/food prep areas are clean and pest free in schools. Also, mandatory gym class ensures children get some form of exercise daily. We screen families for low income so that children can receive free breakfasts and lunches. What about mobile dentist? Scoliosis screenings? Eye chart tests? 

While I’m not completely against homeschooling, if it is to be implemented without children slipping through the cracks, maybe some oversight may be in order. If you really want to teach your kids something, start with the fact that NO ONE is entirely free to do whatever they want. We all have to answer to some form of higher authority or oversight. Be it taxes, bosses, Deity, or most importantly, our incredible responsibility owed to our children. 

[luv2laugh]

1 hour ago, MarblesMom said:

Wow, I thought this was our job as parents, to help the kids with schoolwork when they came home, regardless of our needs of hunger or exhaustion from our adult days.

Did I miss a memo?

I think it’s important for kids to be independent as possible with homework. Parents that are devoted do an awesome job of helping but school shouldn’t be work for the parents rather, it’s the teacher’s job or after school tutors job.

Parents need to practice some self-care and not burn out from busy work many of the teacher’s assign.

[Blahblah]

And inevitably......

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/accused-couple-david-and-louise-turpin-allegedly-had-a-twisted-plan-for-a-reality-tv-show/news-story/b9db69f7820982e450d8b6fa71b97f0b

 

[Hisey]

I think one of the most important questions in the homeschooling debate is this: what does the child want?

Most kids want to go to school. They want to be with kids their own age. They want to be with friends. They DON'T  want to be with their mom all day.

Not all kids, of course. But most.

I've also noticed that homeschooled kids are usually very curious about school, even if they are reluctant to admit this around their parents. What goes on there all day? What's gym like? How about recess? What's a Friday night basketball game like? What about the dance afterwards?

One of the most important reasons I don't homeschool is that my kids want to be with other kids. (I've got nothing against homeschooling, though). I don't think attending a weekly coop is the same as being with the same group of kids every day. You don't get the feeling of solidarity, and it is harder to establish friendship.

There's also the fact that if you are homeschooled, most of your peers are in school and have a whole language/cultural references you don't have.

I actually would've loved to homeschool but I didn't feel it was fair to my kids. They had so much fun with their friends. I couldn't compete with that.

[Aine]

5 hours ago, Otto Titsling said:

@bird Consider the state that I live in. I live in Michigan. If you started at the bottom of the state and drove the entire state to the top, it would take 6-7 hours. If you then wanted to drive across the upper peninsula, it would take another 6-7 hours. You encounter rural farming counties, suburbia, and some of the most crime ridden cities in the country in just my state alone. I'm lucky that my (more or less) suburban county has outstanding services for special needs children. Less than an hour away-Detroit. There are schools up there with rats running on the floors and in the halls. A few years ago, sometimes teachers weren't getting paid on time or checks were bouncing. Sometimes it's not even the rural part that kills the schools, it's the make up of the student body. Because, let's face it, education dollars follow the white students. The poor black and brown kids don't count as much. It's a harsh truth, but there it is. And you better believe that Betsy DeVos couldn't give a shit about those kids either. 

My point is, this is the education problem that we face in just this one state. And there are 49 others that I'm sure have their own set of circumstances and problems. It's kind of sad that we can't seem to do better as a nation. I think it's one of our biggest shames. 

I have a friend who I went to undergrad with who lives in MI and her husband is a math whiz (went on full academic scholarship to a top school- than one in Ann Arbor  - to study math) and he could have done anything, but he really wanted to teach math at the high school level and give kids like he was a good education and a genuine love and understanding of math. 

My friend could not work after their third child due to an acquired serious injury in childbirth. Even before that, they were struggling (she's a Master's qualified librarian). They could not make ends meet at all, even living in a rural area, with him in education. He was also hugely limited in how he taught due to various things and worked INSANE hours (unpaid) to support and prepare for his students so he rarely saw his family. He is now managing a retail store where his hours are better, he's earning considerably more, and he has much better benefits than working in the school system in their state. It's disgusting that that's the case- and not because retail workers don't deserve all that but because  children's futures that are being shaped by someone who could have done all sorts of much more highly-paying jobs, are forced out of teaching because it isn't sustainable. 

[Otto Titsling]

@Aine  Are you affiliated with that school down south (Ohio State)?  Lol.

I totally believe it about your friends. We own our home in part because it’s my husbands childhood home that is a partial inheritance (we are paying half price, so we still have a mortgage). My father-in-law built this house with cash and did all the work himself except for the brickwork. They wanted to keep it in the family. Otherwise, we probably couldn’t afford it either. I pay as much in property taxes on one acre as my sister does in PA on 17 acres, and she has a brand new log home on her property just outside of State College (PSU). That’s not a cheap area. 

Michigan is ridiculously expensive to live in. 

[Sydney Fox]

10 minutes ago, Hisey said:

I think one of the most important questions in the homeschooling debate is this: what does the child want?

Most kids want to go to school. They want to be with kids their own age. They want to be with friends. They DON'T  want to be with their mom all day.

Not all kids, of course. But most.

I've also noticed that homeschooled kids are usually very curious about school, even if they are reluctant to admit this around their parents. What goes on there all day? What's gym like? How about recess? What's a Friday night basketball game like? What about the dance afterwards?

One of the most important reasons I don't homeschool is that my kids want to be with other kids. (I've got nothing against homeschooling, though). I don't think attending a weekly coop is the same as being with the same group of kids every day. You don't get the feeling of solidarity, and it is harder to establish friendship.

There's also the fact that if you are homeschooled, most of your peers are in school and have a whole language/cultural references you don't have.

I actually would've loved to homeschool but I didn't feel it was fair to my kids. They had so much fun with their friends. I couldn't compete with that.

This is very true. When my homeschooled daughter decided to go to high school at age 16, it was for purely social reasons. A number of her friends went to school, and she wanted to experience it for herself. 

 

[luv2laugh]

I was very introverted in middle school and high school and wanted to be homeschooled. In the end, I wasn’t but I was always a self learner and introverted. I wanted to focus ONLY on my studies and not be concerned with social things, gossip, and “will my boyfriend break up with me?” in class. High school was an extremely dramatic and traumatic experience for me and took a toll on my grades. Four years of horrible teacher experiences combined with boyfriend issues and friendship backstabbing actually gave me a bit of PTSD. College was far better as I learned on my own terms (NO crappy busywork) with everyone in lectures and managed to graduate with a 4.0. High school teachers really should, IMO, model their curriculum similar to a typical college syllabus with essays and exams with OPTIONAL textbook practice problems. Crossword puzzle worksheets, movies, and memorization of random stories really didn’t help me.

I worry for my children and want to protect them from the school bullying and torment I faced. IMO, learning is the priority and social engagements can hurt it! There is plenty of time to cultivate friendships in after school clubs but the whole recess, cafeteria, and classroom social drama can be bad. Parents are rightly concerned about mean kids because bullying can cause PTSD as it did for me.

Now, compared to my introverted husband, I’m very outgoing and love talking! I feel both introverted and extroverted and don’t know which I am. I gain energy from being alone yet I love talking it up with people and meeting new people at parties.

[Lgirlrocks]

21 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I was very introverted in middle school and high school and wanted to be homeschooled. In the end, I wasn’t but I was always a self learner and introverted. I wanted to focus ONLY on my studies and not be concerned with social things, gossip, and “will my boyfriend break up with me?” in class. High school was an extremely dramatic and traumatic experience for me and took a toll on my grades. Four years of horrible teacher experiences combined with boyfriend issues and friendship backstabbing actually gave me a bit of PTSD. College was far better as I learned on my own terms (NO crappy busywork) with everyone in lectures and managed to graduate with a 4.0. I worry for my children and want to protect them from the school bullying and torment I faced. IMO, learning is the priority and social engagements can hurt it! There is plenty of time to cultivate friendships in after school clubs but the whole recess, cafeteria, and classroom social drama can be bad. Parents are rightly concerned about mean kids because bullying can cause PTSD as it did for me.

Now, compared to my introverted husband, I’m very outgoing and love talking! I feel both introverted and extroverted and don’t know which I am. I gain energy from being alone yet I love talking it up with people and meeting new people at parties.

I am an introvert as well but I hated being home schooled. I hated being home with just my mom and my brothers all day. We went to church and there was way more drama there then in the public schools I attended. By the time I went out for school in the 8th grade I had gotten used to being bullied by church kids that it didn’t bother me. I was the odd man out because I had been home schooled. Every kid is different though. Home schooling makes it so easy to isolate kids from kids outside of their family. 

[luv2laugh]

36 minutes ago, Lgirlrocks said:

I am an introvert as well but I hated being home schooled. I hated being home with just my mom and my brothers all day. We went to church and there was way more drama there then in the public schools I attended. By the time I went out for school in the 8th grade I had gotten used to being bullied by church kids that it didn’t bother me. I was the odd man out because I had been home schooled. Every kid is different though. Home schooling makes it so easy to isolate kids from kids outside of their family. 

This is the way I see it:

Homeschool:

Pros:

-Dedicated parents are creating a rigorous, intense curriculum and know when their student needs a break and works best—- NO child left behind!

-Some learn best in the peaceful comfort of their own home

-Great for kids with disabilities

-NOT a 7-3:30 PM (sometimes 5 PM) ordeal + 3 hours of homework! No wonder kids are stressed today!

-A study session of intense 4 hours can be far more beneficial and rigorous than a 7-3:30 PM  schedule.

-A parent is NOT going to rush through a concept and hope that one day the kid catches on.

-Intense SAT prep 

- No BS busy work. Focus is on mastering concepts.

Cons:

-If parent is an abuser, it can become a Turpin family situation where no one knows anything.

-If parent is neglectful, the kid will not learn anything and there’s no regulation to find out if learning is being enforced.

-Unschooling movement can cause a Naighlsr situation

-A parent can isolate their kids like the Maxwells or choose to join clubs or co-ops to have them very active socially. It’s a range and choice of parents. 

-Homeschooling is not a feasible option for two income families which are increasingly the norm now. Since it’s basically a full time job, it means the wife has no option other than to sacrifice her career by staying home.

Public school/ Private school:

Pro:

-The best schools are “Ivy league feeders”. This is why my husband doesn’t want to homeschool. The best schools send many kids off to top universities because of their long standing connections to them. IMO, it boils my blood as it’s not fair nor equal but I hope it changes so all kids have an equal chance no matter where they’re being educated. 

-There’s opportunity for a typical high school experience of prom, football games, boyfriends, etc. but I honestly only cared about learning. All of that social stuff can wait for college in my opinion. My high school boyfriends were distractions that I deeply regret getting involved with from first place.

-Some educators are very passionate, loving, and very sharp 

-The common core is has been an excellent improvement to our pressure on teachers to cover all basic concepts to improve the equality of education quality for all kids. Homeschoolers may not have the same high quality curriculum since it’s not regulated. 

Cons:

-Kids that aren’t catching on ASAP fall through cracks and teachers don’t really do anything about it. They have to move on to the next lesson. 

-Teachers aren’t prepping kids for SATs...

-Teachers, from my experience, have given lots of group projects to work on in class so they can hang out with other teachers and pop in movies. After, they’d hand out tough exams that came straight from textbooks that they wouldn’t spend much time teaching from. 

-Anything a teacher didn’t cover usually gets unfairly dumped on the kid to teach themselves leaving parents to have to play “part-time teacher” on top of working full time or outsource a tutor which gets very expensive! 

-Drama with boyfriends and bullying can deeply scar a kid like they did with me. I still have nightmares from being back in high school. It can take a toll on grades. Let’s get real... HOW can you focus on learning chemistry titration formulas Mr. Smith is writing on the board while cheerleaders Nicki & Grace are dishing on gossip on one of your friends and you must face your ex boyfriend in the same class who is now dating the prom queen who has spread nasty rumors about you and giggles when she sees you?!?!???

-Social interactions can tank a kid’s GPA and doesn’t matter much in the long run. The grades however, do matter and stay with you for life. 

[KnittingOwl]

4 hours ago, Aine said:

Thanks, @KnittingOwl- I didn't have time to look up links etc so thank you! I didn't see your reply before I posted mine. 

Thanks for your posts, too!  Sounds like we are on the same page. Totally agree on scientists and doctors who shill pseudoscience . Dr. Oz in particular drives me batty!