Turpins 2- California Torture House (Graphic content discussed)

[Granwych]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 6:59 PM, metheglyn said:

I love my mother dearly, but due to specific personality issues around learning and how I handle feeling ignorant we do *NOT* gel well as a teacher-pupil pair.

This was wychling and myself.  Even in kindergarten she would insist that "Mrs. Smith" knew the right answers and that I didn't.

[Jana814]

1 hour ago, FloraDoraDolly said:

Very possible. Does anyone else remember the Lisa Steinberg murder from the 1980s? The adoptive father beat the child to death, but the adoptive mother got off.

I remember that story. Their as a Law & Order episode about it in their first season.  

 

 

[SoybeanQueen]

19 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Quite honestly, homeschooling in my opinion will become a thing of the past. In order to be a devoted homeschooling parent, one MUST stay at home and not work since it’s a full time job. With feminism, workplace equality improving, and economic conditions, most houses are two income families. There’s no way homeschooling will continue to work.

Time will tell, but I disagree that it will be a thing of the past. Homeschooling is growing by leaps and bounds, and in circles that are anything but fundie. I know several families where one parent stepped away from the workforce to homeschool because it's that important to them to give their kids varied, tailored educational experiences. Homeschooling is growing among middle class and upper class families, and among non-religious families. The demand for secular homeschool curricula is very high.

It's no longer unusual for homeschooled students to be accepted into college, even to Ivy League schools. They're taking the ACT and SAT and performing along the same curve as public school students, or better. Some states have looked at the available evidence and now allow homeschool students to participate in school sports and other activities. I think the barriers are coming down, rather than this style of schooling being phased out.

[Elegant Mess]

Haven't seen this come up in this thread (sorry if I'm wrong), but I've seen several reports that say that the police may send cadaver dogs to search the Turpin residence:

https://crimewatchdaily.com/2018/01/18/article-2018-01-18-turpins-charged-with-torture-child-abuse-false-imprisonment/

 

[EmmieJ]

2 hours ago, Hisey said:

I think people should channel thei anger into helping abused or neglected kids in their community. Thats what I am doing. I actually signed up with an organization today. 

I am slowly getting over a bad flu, but I have looked up our local CASA online.  When I am fully well, I am going to sign up for their instructional course and volunteer.  That's due to the horror and sadness i feel for the Turpin offspring.  I can't do anything for them, but I can do something locally.

[kunoichi66]

8 minutes ago, Elegant Mess said:

Haven't seen this come up in this thread (sorry if I'm wrong), but I've seen several reports that say that the police may send cadaver dogs to search the Turpin residence:

https://crimewatchdaily.com/2018/01/18/article-2018-01-18-turpins-charged-with-torture-child-abuse-false-imprisonment/

 

Well, shit.

[EmCatlyn]

Re: Son of Sam rules — I know they exist, but I think they may have loopholes.

Re: The Lisa Steinberg case, I seem to remember that there was clear evidence that the “adoptive mother” was physically abused also and no evidence that she herself had battered the children. She was obviously implicated in the severe neglect and in not protectng the children, but it could be argued that she had been given drugs and brutalized by the “father.” (The words are in quotes because not only did the couple not behave like parents, but the kids were not legally adopted — in a sense they were kidnapped by Steinberg, who told the mothers he was placing them for adoption and just kept the kids.)

In the Turpin case, I suspect the children will be able to say that the mother not only knew but was part of the torture.  But we will see.  

 Interestingly, at the arraignment, Monster Louise had retained a lawyer, but Monster David had a public defender.  It made me wonder why.  His parents sounded all ready to get him a lawyer.  (They said something about needing to help their son and their grandchildren— nothing about their son’s wife.)  

The Crime Watch Daily site ( which seems to be the source for the information about the scent dogs looking for bodies) has a really good interview/report where a former ADA, Ambrosio Rodriguez,  with experience in abuse cases addresses what can be expected to happen, what can be done, etc.    I liked that he answered many questions. (See the video towards the end of the article.)

https://crimewatchdaily.com/2018/01/18/article-2018-01-18-turpins-charged-with-torture-child-abuse-false-imprisonment/

 

(I just saw that someone had posted this link already, but I want to highlight Ambrosio Rodriguez’s comments, not the cadaver dogs which were also reported by a couple of other sources.)

[Walking Cat Bed]

This is one of those situations that reinforce a specific thing: Abusers will find a way to abuse. Some will isolate and homeschool, some will make sure their kids go to public school in clothes that cover bruises. The abusers are at fault and are entirely responsible for abusing. 

 

And, thank you all -- I made donations to the child services orgs in my city (including the LGBT group, plus an awesome animal shelter). I've been meaning to make those donations, especially since I'm not a kid person -- money is useful, too.

[SoybeanQueen]

20 hours ago, DashwoodDaring said:

 

When all children in public schools are performing to standards on tests, and all of them are achieving passing grades, then I'll be OK with applying the same standards to homeschoolers.

Children who don't do well enough on the public school standardized tests are not held back or given any specialized attention, not in many schools. There's also the issue of grade level. For my son to succeed, I had to go back several grades and re-teach. He wasn't on grade level for 3 school years in public school, and wasn't performing well on the standardized tests. The school just passed him to the next grade. Requiring a "grade level" standardized test would have meant that homeschooling failed him in the same way public school did.

You said the bad homeschool parents wouldn't join an activity group. If it's a requirement in the same way a standardized test is, then there would also be a mechanism for further inspection. Just like some horrible families would skip that requirement, they'd also skip registering their kids, hide them away, and not do the standardized tests. As you said, rules for law abiding citizens don't stop the bad people.

It's clear you have a low opinion of homeschooling families if you think they're trying to be more special than anyone else, or that the majority want to hide from society. Modern homeschooling is not majority fundie, and there are a lot of cool things happening. That's because they're mostly allowed to find better ways to educate their kids, free of the crap tests that bog down public schools.

[Mcnapple]

I haven't read all of the replies yet, but a couple of thoughts I had.

1) people are discussing whether the monsters were religious based on the children supposedly memorizing huge passages of the Bible.From what I've seen, it was the grandparents who said that, and I am personally disregarding everything they say. Since most monsters were abused in childhood, I think it highly likely the grandparents were also abusers. Adding to this, I think they are lying when they say they had no idea what was going on. The grandparents knew the ages of the children, they knew that 7 of the children were adults , adults who were doing absolutely  nothing. When people turn 18, they get jobs, go to college/trade school, join the military, get married and have children, even spinster SAHD's write crappy books. So when a family has 7 adult children who are doing nothing, c'mon, I don't believe the grandparents when they say they didn't know what was going on. Hence, I don't believe anything they say.

2) About the conspiracy theory that this didn't happen. I say this in regard to people who believe conspiracy theories like that, not about the people with an agenda who write them up. I think it's a defense mechanism, not a healthy one, but a defense mechanism against such horror. I wish I could ignore evidence and believe these conspiracy theories, because it would be so much better to believe that actors with a political agenda set up these horrific stories, then to believe that these horrific stories are real and that people really can be that evil. I can't ignore the evidence, but I can understand why people choose to and believe conspiracy theories. 

[SoybeanQueen]

18 hours ago, Hisey said:

I think one of the most important questions in the homeschooling debate is this: what does the child want?

Most kids want to go to school. They want to be with kids their own age. They want to be with friends. They DON'T  want to be with their mom all day.

Not all kids, of course. But most.

I've also noticed that homeschooled kids are usually very curious about school, even if they are reluctant to admit this around their parents. What goes on there all day? What's gym like? How about recess? What's a Friday night basketball game like? What about the dance afterwards?

One of the most important reasons I don't homeschool is that my kids want to be with other kids.

I actually would've loved to homeschool but I didn't feel it was fair to my kids. They had so much fun with their friends. I couldn't compete with that.

Homeschool groups have dances and proms. I know several homeschool families who do that so they can travel all over the world. and several who homeschool because their kids can compete in a higher level of sports or music or whatever. They're not isolated. They're with other kids often. They have friends, and not just homeschooled friends. The fundies discussed here are not the face of homeschooling any more than school shooters are the face of public school students. The fundies here are not the norm of anything other than fundie-ism.

[FleeJanaFree]

I can't keep up with this thread! Such horrors! What's the story with the oldest? A 29 year old? How long was s/he kept tortured? I'm assuming that child was refused freedom at 18 out of fear of being exposed?  I understand how kids slip through the cracks easier, but an adult is more shocking to me. I wonder how they handled taxes, for instance. 

someone said earlier this case is affecting their own humanity, and I agree. Prison is too good for them. A luxury compared to what those children/adult went through. 

[SoybeanQueen]

3 hours ago, Hisey said:

I think people should channel thei anger into helping abused or neglected kids in their community. Thats what I am doing. I actually signed up with an organization today. 

YES. So much this.

Even if people are unequipped to help much financially or physically, just reading in-depth about the long-term effects of neglect and abuse would be massively helpful so that one could offer support or understanding to the kids or their adoptive parents, if applicable. Our kids who came to us through adoption have some significant lingering issues, and I cannot talk to very many people about it because they just don't understand, assume that we don't love the kids enough, or assume they're bad kids because of some of their trauma-based behaviors. If I feel that way, I cannot imagine it is any easier for the kids themselves to open up to others when they need extra support. It's tremendously relieving to me when I learn that someone has educated his or herself about neglect and food hoarding, physical abuse and lying, etc.

So, if someone is thinking "I just don't know how I could help...." the library will have books on these subjects. Lending an ear is like a mini respite for many families.

[Mcnapple]

3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

The article also reports what someone reported above about Louise telling her brother that she wanted to have a fourteenth child and that she thought their family could get a reality TV show and make lots of money.

It is illegal for people convicted of a crime to make money from telling the story of that crime--they can sell the rights to the story, but the money does not go to them (it would go to their victims and/or the state.)

[SoybeanQueen]

1 hour ago, Elegant Mess said:

Haven't seen this come up in this thread (sorry if I'm wrong), but I've seen several reports that say that the police may send cadaver dogs to search the Turpin residence:

https://crimewatchdaily.com/2018/01/18/article-2018-01-18-turpins-charged-with-torture-child-abuse-false-imprisonment/

 

They would be crazy not to check. As many have said in these threads, the chances of other children having died there are fairly high.

[Rachel333]

Religious homeschoolers still are in the majority according to surveys. This one from 2012 shows that 64% cite a desire to provide religious instruction as a reason for homeschooling. Not all of those are true fundies, but fundies are definitely pretty common among homeschooling families. I don't know that it particularly matters, though. There are religious families who do good jobs and secular families who homeschool their kids really poorly, and both religious and secular parents are capable of abusing their children.

I think socialization is more of an issue than homeschooling parents admit. Just anecdotally a lot of former homeschoolers report struggling with social skills even though they did do things like sports and co-ops. I liked this piece about a common issue among homeschoolers about socialization. I find that, unfortunately, homeschooling parents very rarely actually listen to those of us who really were homeschooled though.

Personally, I was quite introverted but I still wished at times I could be around other kids more, even though I did do a lot of activities like church, music groups, and homeschool co-op classes. I was terrified of public school though, as were a lot of homeschooled kids since homeschoolers often make public schools out to be horrific places. I did go to public school for high school and I was very scared at first but I ended up loving it and I definitely don't think I could have gotten the same education at home.

[Mcnapple]

15 hours ago, smittykins said:

Everything I've read says the maximum is 94 years to life.(Even if they were sentenced to death, odds are they'd still die in prison; California's last execution was in 2006.

Things would change if it turns out they did kill one of their children, and if the body of the child was left in Texas (which way to judiciously (IMO) hands out the death penalty.) I am mostly against the death penalty, but in cases like this where there is absolutely no doubt that the perpetrator actually committed the crime, when the crime is very heinous, and when there can be no possibility of rehabilitation, I think the death penalty is the way to go. 

[EmCatlyn]

15 minutes ago, Mcnapple said:

1) people are discussing whether the monsters were religious based on the children supposedly memorizing huge passages of the Bible.From what I've seen, it was the grandparents who said that, and I am personally disregarding everything they say. Since most monsters were abused in childhood, I think it highly likely the grandparents were also abusers. Adding to this, I think they are lying when they say they had no idea what was going on. The grandparents knew the ages of the children, they knew that 7 of the children were adults , adults who were doing absolutely  nothing. When people turn 18, they get jobs, go to college/trade school, join the military, get married and have children, even spinster SAHD's write crappy books. So when a family has 7 adult children who are doing nothing, c'mon, I don't believe the grandparents when they say they didn't know what was going on. Hence, I don't believe anything they say.

I agree completely that the grandparents must have known that something was wrong, and I believe you may be right that there probably was some kind of abuse in David’s family of origin.  

However, I do believe that the grandparents had no idea how bad it was.  They said that they knew the parents were “strict” which may mean they knew of instances of what we would recognize as abuse but they chose to accept as okay.  But I suspect they had no idea the abuse had crossed into systematic torture.  

Regarding the older children not having jobs and so forth, remember that most of them were girls and that one of the boys apparently took a few college classes.  I could see Monsters D and L spinning it that the older girls were helping around the house and with the younger kids until Mr Right came along and that the two boys were going to school or were learning a trade.   The grandparents hadn’t seen or spoken to the kids in five years or so.  At the time of their last visit,  most of the kids were still children.  The oldest girl would have been 24.  The next three or four would have been between 19 and 23.   If one or two seemed “slow” and the grandparents figured girls should wait to get married, the grandparents wouldn’t have necessarily been made uneasy. Besides, the abuse may not have been as bad back then.  

You are right that the only people  who have claimed the Turpins were a “good Christian family” were the grandparents and that the grandmother is the source of the story that the kids’ homeschooling included memorizing thr bible and that at least one kid had the goal of memorizing the whole Bible.    It could be that the grandparents made that up, but I think that it was either David or Louise or the two of them who told David’s parents that the kids were being educated in this way.  It is the sort of thing that someone who is trying to impress his fundie parents (or in laws) might make up.

This isn’t to excuse the grandparents; they are obviously part of the problem of denial if nothing else.  I just think that what is really striking about this case is how the Turpins lied, pretended, and avoided letting even their close relatives get close enough.

[QueenoftheDRT]

I am a long time lurker (from the DNA and Emily days) but I had to make an account just to add in my 2 cents.

Where the Turpins live(lived?) there is a large free homeschooling community. There is an anything goes homeschooling wise group, and a very Christian group. All of them have parkdays, field trips, and activities. Not to mention California (and especially that area) have a lot of charter schools that are Independent study (homeschooling with teacher supervision). There are quite a few that give funds so that the parents can pay for classes and curriculum, and they meet with a teacher once a month to show their work and discuss concerns. They do state testing and twice-yearly school mandated testing. There's classes with other kids from once a week to 4 days a week. It's a great balance that kids are supervised, but parents still have freedom to school their kids as they want. 

Homeschooling might not be for you, but it's great for some other families. Its a shame that some families use homeschooling as a cover for abusing their kids. 

 

[SoybeanQueen]

33 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Religious homeschoolers still are in the majority according to surveys. This one from 2012 shows that 64% cite a desire to provide religious instruction as a reason for homeschooling. Not all of those are true fundies, but fundies are definitely pretty common among homeschooling families. I don't know that it particularly matters, though. There are religious families who do good jobs and secular families who homeschool their kids really poorly, and both religious and secular parents are capable of abusing their children.

Agree on the last sentence, for sure. I think it's interesting on that chart you linked that concerns about school environment and dissatisfaction with instruction at other schools are both higher than the religious reasoning. The non-religious segments are growing quickly. Also, states that do not require specific types of registration would not be able to report accurately on the number of homeschooled children or the reasoning for choosing homeschool.

I actually do support a more specific annual registration system. In my state, I only had to register as a private school once. I did not have to list names or the number of students I intended to teach. I think parents should need to update the registration every year and that the students currently enrolled should be listed by name and age (not grade level, because that's really subjective and based on a public school model). Without that, any attempt to know how many children are homeschooled in my state is useless. If parents intend to do a good job of teaching their kids, they should be fine with putting that on paper each year.

My husband was more on the fence about homeschooling than I was because of the social factors. I tend to think that kids will be socially awkward if that's their tendency, whether they're in public school or homeschool. A couple of our kids struggle with social things, and they're in public school. My son who was homeschooled for a couple or years really thrived socially during that time, whereas he struggles more in public school. Certainly I don't discount your personal experience. Our experience was different, though.

[ChildofScience]

Im sorry if this is redundant or has already been shared, but I think this is a great website for everyone to review right now. It's good to remember signs of abuse and how to act accordingly. It shocked me how the family members and neighbors didn't see any red flags and I think this website is a very good reference if you see something weird and are wondering if it could be abuse: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/child-abuse/symptoms-causes/syc-20370864 

[Rachel333]

20 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

Agree on the last sentence, for sure. I think it's interesting on that chart you linked that concerns about school environment and dissatisfaction with instruction at other schools are both higher than the religious reasoning.

People could choose more than one option and I think those issues would be a concern for both religious and non-religious parents, so I think that's mostly separate from the question of how many people have religious reasons for homeschooling.

[lilwriter85]

5 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

(Hello.  I have been away for a long time, but the Turpin story brought me back.)  

I have read through the two threads, and I don’t think anyone yet has posted that according to the Sunday Chronicle (UK),  Louise Turpin’s sister. Teresa and their half-brother want to adopt the younger Turpin children.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/907664/Turpin-family-California-children-torture-reality-TV-show-14-trial-latest-Louise-David

The article also reports what someone reported above about Louise telling her brother that she wanted to have a fourteenth child and that she thought their family could get a reality TV show and make lots of money.

On that subject my first reaction is that the renewal of vows tapes may have been, in Louise’s mind, a sort of audition.  My second reaction is that, sadly, the Turpin parents may still get money from selling their story, giving interviews, etc.   It’s a different kind of “reality,” but she may still get her “show.”

You might be onto something there. When I watch the video of the vow renewal, it kind of me reminded of me of the dumb videos the Balloon Boy family made in their attempts to get a reality show deal.

[HarleyQuinn]

Not surprised at all that they sent dogs out to that property. I'm scared to think of what they will find.

[EmCatlyn]

I keep thinking about the older children, the ones whose childhoods were a nightmare from which they may never recover.   Even though the parents may not have crossed the line into torture before the older ones were in their late teens or twenties, what went before prepared them to accept everything their parents did.  They didn’t have a chance.

And yet, you get a glimmer of what could have been.  In the following account, I notice there was a clever little girl (9 years old? ) who had figured out that though they weren’t allowed to tell people their names, people who heard them call each other by their names could learn their names that way. That’s not a stunted intelligence.  And it shows a natural impulse to go around the “letter of the law” which I find healthy and normal for a kid, especially one who was already being abused and malnourished.

Unfortunately, younger sister tattled and the Turpins ended the children’s contact with the neighbors.  

Quote

The Turpin kids rarely came over to our house to play. One day when they came over I asked them their names, a normal question. One of the girls said to me, "I can't tell you our names, but if you listen I might be able to find out what our names are, and then the little sister said, 'Don't say anything' to the older one,' Shelli says.

'At first I thought she was joking but later realized she wasn't. It was at that point I thought something strange was going on over at the Turpin house.'

Shortly after Shelli asked the Turpin kids their names, Ashely said she went over to the Turpins' house and knocked on the door to see if they could play.

According to Ashely, Louise Turpin answered the door and told her, 'I'm sorry they can't come out and play today, they can't play with you anymore.'

From the interview of Ashley and Shelli Vineyard, Texas neighbors, published by the Daily Mail.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5284947/Friend-Turpin-kids-says-family-left-kitten-dumpster.html#ixzz54syuUxTf