Tori Bates - Part 4: Pretty Dresses Hiding Ugly Ideologies

[bea]

My husband used to say he found the exact name thing weird, like “hello, I am me, and this is my son, who is also me.”
But I have the same name as my aunt, who is named after her great-grandmother (though my mother named both of us), and I have at least five cousins named Mary.

[llucie]

I wonder if they always stop this tradition before it becomes too ridiculous, or is there say a Robert the X, or Charles the XIII hahaha 

[JoyfulSel]

4 hours ago, Lurky said:

It always seems uniquely American, and I always wonder why is it only men?  Because women get married and so aren't expected to keep their surnames?  I've never heard of a woman being eg Tori Bates II - outside of the Gilmore Girls, I guess.  And how does it work if a second son had his son first in a family with John Smith as the name?  If John Joseph Smith II's second son Bob had the first son of the next generation and called him John Joseph Smith IV, would that cause ructions?   Would John Joseph Smith III also called his first son John Joseph Smith IV, and decide his brother's son doesn't count?

 

I've seen a few times where the father will give his daughter his name and then she is a junior - Imam Shumpert (NBA player) named his daughter Iman, so she is a junior, and Serena Williams and her husband Alexis Ohanian named their daughter Alexis, and she is a junior.

My mom's father was Ivan, and his father was Pavel, my great-great-grandfather was Ivan, and so forth (this is from the Croatian side of my family). So there was never really a "junior," but the alternately name thing went on for quite a few generations back, this ended with my grandpa though who named my mom's brothers Stephen and Joseph. I definitely don't plan on naming any future children juniors, unless I might be married to someone who has the name that I've already picked out.

[VelociRapture]

@Lurky The one famous example I can remember off the top of my head are Ann Putnam and her daughter, Ann Putnam Jr. They were involved with the Salem Witch Trials. 

My family has honored both male and female relatives in a similar manner. My mother has the same first name as her mother, though they have different middle names. My mom’s late sister was named for both her Grandmothers (she got their first names as her first and middle names.) One of their brothers was named after their dad (a Third) and the youngest son had the same names as one of their uncles, but reversed (think Charles David and David Charles.)

Husband and I don’t plan on any Juniors. Our daughter’s name honors my side of the family* and the name of any future child will honor at least one additional relative on either side of the family. And my sister and her husband just had their second baby today, so we now know they don’t have any juniors either (though both their sons have at least one family name.)  

*We purposely picked a first name for her that isn’t currently  in use by a living relative because we didn’t want her to have to share. Her first name is a form of the middle name my mother and I share though and was the middle name of my favorite Great-Aunt. 

[HermioneSparrow]

I'm weird about naming my child after anyone in my family because both of my names are the first names of my grandmas and I hated it. That's one thing I'll NEVER EVER do, future baby daddy will have to deal with it. Lol

[feministxtian]

My first name has been used in various forms for generations in my mother's family. I skipped my daughter, but her oldest's middle name is another form of the same name. My middle name is my paternal grandmother's middle name, just spelled a bit differently (no "unique" spelling, but a more umm...anglicized version of it). Those two names went with a long, German last name. My boys have traditional, Old Testament first names. #2 son is a junior b/c the fucking X declared it to be so. My grandson's first and middle names are Old Testament names, his middle name is his father's first name. 

I hate my name, it's long, usually mispronounced, misspelled and well, I hate it. 

[VineHeart137]

The name talk reminded me of a funny story. When I was in high school I was friends with two girls named Mary and Sarah*. Sarah was, in fact, named after her mom. One day Mary called Sarah's house and asked to speak to Sarah, the person who answered asked "Sarah Junior or Sarah Senior?" Mary suffered a momentary brain fart and hesitatingly answered "No... Sarah Sophomore." It was a while before we let her live that one down!

My husband is a junior and if we had a son, wanted him to be III. I was adamantly against it. Our compromise was a son could have my husband's first name as his middle name, but my husband would still bring up wanting [HisName] III. We ended up with two girls so the point was moot! Our older daughter is named after me but not in an obvious way. We just picked a name we both liked for our second daughter. Naming is one of my favorite parts of the whole "creating a human" thing!

*Names have been changed!

[JordynDarby5]

It used to be common for daughters to be named after their mother. Abigail Adams's daughter was named after her, and her daughter-in-law Louisa also had a daughter named Louisa (sadly the little girl was born and died in Russia and it was very painful for John Quincy and Louisa, one of her sons named his daughter and that was hard for her). Martha Washington had a daughter named after her. In my family it wasn't uncommon in the family tree the last one my 2nd time grandmother's daughter was named after her. My mom was named after her grandmother, one of her cousins was named after their grandfather. I always wanted to name my daughter after my dad's mom, she had such a pretty name and combined it with my maternal grandma's middle name. If I had a son I wanted his middle name to be my great-grandfather's. If had a second son his middle name would be my mom's dad's name.  There are a few other names in my family I loved Lucinda, Alice, and Nora.  Outside of fundie families you can never have as many kids to use up all your favorite names. 

[VelociRapture]

20 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

It used to be common for daughters to be named after their mother. Abigail Adams's daughter was named after her, and her daughter-in-law Louisa also had a daughter named Louisa (sadly the little girl was born and died in Russia and it was very painful for John Quincy and Louisa, one of her sons named his daughter and that was hard for her). Martha Washington had a daughter named after her. In my family it wasn't uncommon in the family tree the last one my 2nd time grandmother's daughter was named after her. My mom was named after her grandmother, one of her cousins was named after their grandfather. I always wanted to name my daughter after my dad's mom, she had such a pretty name and combined it with my maternal grandma's middle name. If I had a son I wanted his middle name to be my great-grandfather's. If had a second son his middle name would be my mom's dad's name.  There are a few other names in my family I loved Lucinda, Alice, and Nora.  Outside of fundie families you can never have as many kids to use up all your favorite names. 

Which is why our dear antlered savior created The Sims. May Rufus bless you all!

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

On 7/4/2018 at 3:33 PM, Lurky said:

And how does it work if a second son had his son first in a family with John Smith as the name?  If John Joseph Smith II's second son Bob had the first son of the next generation and called him John Joseph Smith IV, would that cause ructions?   Would John Joseph Smith III also called his first son John Joseph Smith IV, and decide his brother's son doesn't count?

In this case, Bob Smith’s son would just be John Joseph Smith. They could start the whole damn thing over again, but once someone has a different name than their father, the Jr./III/IV etc doesn’t count, you can’t skip a generation. (Ok technically I guess you can do whatever you want, I just mean that’s typically how it works ) 

My dad, his father, and his father all have the same first name, but the middle name alternated — so my great grandfather was James Patrick, grandfather is James Thomas, dad is James Patrick, for example. I guess they weren’t a fan of the Junior thing? Though my dad and his father inevitably get called James Jr and James Sr. to distinguish anyway. 

[just_ordinary]

While I love the idea of names with a family tradition in some cases I think it is pure egocentricity. I get names that you find again and again throughout family history but not giving the exact same name (father to son to son to son) all the time. Alternating or choosing different second names does make it better in my eyes.

We also don’t really have juniors, letter abbreviations (T.J.) or numbers (I.) in my country  so if we encounter it most people (and as the judgemental bitch that I am, me too) think it is absolutely ridiculous and a lower class phenomenon. I mean not even the British Royal Family does the same name thing. Regal names are obviously something different as they work more like part of the title. I wish choosing a regal name different from your given name could be a thing again.

That said- I guess enough people will hate our name choice and I am fine with it. As long as I don’t have a discussion about names with them they will hopefully just gossip about it behind our backs.

[KelseyAnn]

8 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

While I love the idea of names with a family tradition in some cases I think it is pure egocentricity. 

 

Well, I think sometimes (in some cases) a family name is all you can reasonably expect to take or be given from a shitty family member. 

I'm a fourth Ann, and that name is the only thing my daughter is ever gonna be reasonably expected to get from her grandmother. I don't see what's wrong with that. 

[Rachel333]

On 7/4/2018 at 3:33 PM, Lurky said:

And how does it work if a second son had his son first in a family with John Smith as the name?  If John Joseph Smith II's second son Bob had the first son of the next generation and called him John Joseph Smith IV, would that cause ructions?   Would John Joseph Smith III also called his first son John Joseph Smith IV, and decide his brother's son doesn't count?

According to wikipedia, II's, III's, and so on do not need to be in the direct line.

Quote

Jr. or II can be used when being named after the father, however they are both pronounced differently Jr. is pronounced as "Junior" and II is pronounced as "The second". Roman numeral suffixes can used to be named after other family members like an uncle, cousin, or ancestor (including grandfather). The suffix "III" is used after either Jr or II and like subsequent numeric suffixes, does not need to be restricted to one family line. For example, if Randall and Patrick Dudley are brothers and if Randall has a son before Patrick, he will call his son Patrick II. If Patrick now has a son, his son is Patrick Jr. or Patrick II if Randall doesn't have a son named Patrick II. As time passes, the III suffix goes to the son of either Patrick Jr or Patrick II. Whoever is first to have a son named Patrick. This is one way it is possible and correct for a Junior to father a IV. Another example involves President Ulysses S. Grant and his sons Frederick, Ulysses Jr, and Jesse. When Frederick's son Ulysses was born in 1881, Ulysses Jr did not yet have a son named after himself. Therefore, Frederick's son was Ulysses III. Ulysses Jr's son, born afterwards in 1893, was Ulysses IV. Jesse's son Chapman was the father of Ulysses V, as neither Ulysses III nor Ulysses IV had sons named for themselves.

 

[Pecansforeveryone]

@Lurky George Foreman named all 5 of his son's George, complete with numbering. Crazy stuff. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

On 7/7/2018 at 2:08 AM, just_ordinary said:

I wish choosing a regal name different from your given name could be a thing again.

It’s still a thing. The last sovereign did it. He’s just a very long time ago at this point. Several sources have said that Charles intends to be George VII.

[mydoggoskeeper]

One of my good guy friends is the TENTH. His family had some early deeds to the Carolinas but were on the wrong side of two wars so they lost their massive land holdings.  He doesn't even use his given first name and sadly doesn't use an X after his name.  He is married with three daughters and I think they are done so the line ends with him!

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, mydoggoskeeper said:

One of my good guy friends is the TENTH. His family had some early deeds to the Carolinas but were on the wrong side of two wars so they lost their massive land holdings.  He doesn't even use his given first name and sadly doesn't use an X after his name.  He is married with three daughters and I think they are done so the line ends with him!

Three daughters don’t sound like a „line ending“......

[VelociRapture]

13 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Three daughters don’t sound like a „line ending“......

I think she meant the line of people with that specific name is ending, not the blood line or genetic line or family line. The daughters will carry those forward, but apparently not their father’s full name. So the line of “John Jacob Jingleheimersmiths” born into the family will either end or will skip a generation (if one of the daughters has a son and named him that.)

[HereticHick]

Tori and Bobby should just nickname the kid Quattro and be done with. [Thats what I'd do]

[Carm_88]

On 7/9/2018 at 11:51 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

It’s still a thing. The last sovereign did it. He’s just a very long time ago at this point. Several sources have said that Charles intends to be George VII.

George was one of his names though and there hadn't been a King Albert to that point, so he likely went with tradition. George V wasn't supposed to be King and he was only named Albert to please Queen Victoria because she was so upset that he was born on December 14th. That was the day that Albert, the Prince Consort died. I forget how many years later it was. 35 maybe? 

Only 3 sovereigns have "changed" their names; Alexandrina Victoria who became Queen Victoria, Albert Edward who became Edward VII, and Albert Frederick Arthur George who became George VI. 

[VelociRapture]

4 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

George was one of his names though and there hadn't been a King Albert to that point, so he likely went with tradition. George V wasn't supposed to be King and he was only named Albert to please Queen Victoria because she was so upset that he was born on December 14th. That was the day that Albert, the Prince Consort died. I forget how many years later it was. 35 maybe? 

Only 3 sovereigns have "changed" their names; Alexandrina Victoria who became Queen Victoria, Albert Edward who became Edward VII, and Albert Frederick Arthur George who became George VI. 

There’s also the fact that Charles has been known as Charles for so long. He turns 70 in November - that’s a long time to be known by a certain name. If he inherits the throne* then I don’t think it’d make much sense for him to pick another name. 

*I say “if” because the Queen still seems to be going strong and anything could happen. I do hope he outlives the Queen though simply because I hate the thought of any parent having to bury their child.

[Carm_88]

1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

There’s also the fact that Charles has been known as Charles for so long. He turns 70 in November - that’s a long time to be known by a certain name. If he inherits the throne* then I don’t think it’d make much sense for him to pick another name. 

*I say “if” because the Queen still seems to be going strong and anything could happen. I do hope he outlives the Queen though simply because I hate the thought of any parent having to bury their child.

Oh yes! I don't believe the rumours that Charles is taking a new name at all. I was simply stating that the "monarch" name, isn't as common as people seem to think that it is.  

 I agree that to be known as Charles for 70+ years and then to go to George, which is the name of his grandson, would be a bit odd.* 

*Pretty sure both Edward VII and George VI continued to be known as Bertie in private. 

[just_ordinary]

On 7/13/2018 at 2:34 AM, VelociRapture said:

[...]

*I say “if” because the Queen still seems to be going strong and anything could happen. I do hope he outlives the Queen though simply because I hate the thought of any parent having to bury their child.

I am saying for some time now, that my bet is he will never be king. The Queen very well might reach a state where she cannot fulfill her duties anymore but is still alive. I see him being Prince Regent for some time but she gives me the impression to maybe outlive us all. He very well might die or drop this role due to age and health reasons before she dies.

Being King/Queen in the UK is a bit like being pope. Even better, you are not only head of Church but you also get all the bling. A job till you die though, you cannot just retire. But that’s what you have a Regent for.

[TeaELSee]

I figured out the nickname I would use for Robert Ellis Smith IV. Initials are RES.  I would call him Reese.

[3splenty]

My daughters have "namesakes", which is a tradition in my family.  My Grandma used to tell me it's like praying to God that your child will be blessed with the traits you love/loved about that person.  My oldest daughter is named after 4 people (2 dear friends, two great-grandmothers).  My middle daughter's name is an ethnic name hubby's late grandpa loved.  Youngest daughter is named after my best friend, who went through and emerged the victor.  

Of course, they're not the individuals they're named after and I always encourage them to be themselves.