Murder charges for fundie parents

[Vex]

The afferdavit doesn't load for me, the pages are blank. Is there anywhere else I can read it in full?

These fundies need to be stopped. Clearly they can't handle international children, or children who have suffered abuse. When you see an abused child acting out as 'devil-natured', you shouldn't be allowed near them. They look at children and instead of seeing a young, (possibly) damaged soul, they just see a sinner. What adoption agency in its right mind could think that these people can help these children?

Just because they child is getting fed and clothed and educated in America doesn't mean they're automatically better off.

As an adopted child, this is incredibly upsetting. Knowing how easily I could have been adopted by people like the ones mentioned literally makes me feel sick, and I feel so deeply for these poor children. They needed adults they could trust in the worst way.

[Austin]

The afferdavit doesn't load for me, the pages are blank. Is there anywhere else I can read it in full?

You might need to have the latest version of Adobe Acrobat Reader (free) on your computer. You can get it here if you don't have it: http://get.adobe.com/reader/

[MerryHappy]

Man, I feel so sick reading this stuff. :( That poor child. :(

[Beeks]

This was on our local news the other night (I forget which channel now). They highlighted that the parents were following the Pearl's boo, described some of the horrendous advice the book gives, and said they'd put in two calls to Amazon.com to inquire about why they sell it (with no reply). I thought that was great!

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Wow, that is truly horrible. The entire layer of "ew, she's diseased, don't let her TOUCH anything" overlaying the whole thing just makes it all the more disgusting.

And with these very isolated families, who would know the difference if a child is killed under the guise of discipline? There are no school personnel involved, they are not taken to a doctor or other care providers regularly, they are not part of the surrounding community. There is no accountability.

Yeah, I thought similarly too, reading through all that. if the kids had been in public school, there would be a chance for someone to notice their injuries or odd behavior resulting from it, and for people to notice that IJW in particular was delayed. Even without public school, if there were some requirement for the kids to get a visit every so often... but I'm sure these parents would find that onerous, someone would say that in itself is treating the adopted kids with discrimination, or whatever it is. Hindsight's 20/20 I suppose but absolutely you have to wonder at the isolation, how it is so easy for people in that situation to go unnoticed.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Something else too - from the linked blog about this, apparently the town has an Ethiopian community of some size, enough for them to be holding a vigil about this now that they know of it, and raising issues.

On top of all the rest of the regular isolation this family engaged in, the idea that they can adopt a 12 year old foreign kid (who is already socialized!) and then NOT try to make some connection with that community just kinda boggles my mind too.

[aelar]

The whole 'she has a disease, shun her' aspect is what particularly stuck me as well. Hep B is not fun, it can do a lot of damage, and I certainly wouldn't want my child to catch it. And children can be very lax about hygiene issues even without a language and culture barrier. But you know what, they have a vaccine for this! Three shots, spaced a few months apart, and this awful family's precious children would have been safe from the evil African disease-carrier.

[Austin]

Yeah, I thought similarly too, reading through all that. if the kids had been in public school, there would be a chance for someone to notice their injuries or odd behavior resulting from it, and for people to notice that IJW in particular was delayed. Even without public school, if there were some requirement for the kids to get a visit every so often... but I'm sure these parents would find that onerous, someone would say that in itself is treating the adopted kids with discrimination, or whatever it is. Hindsight's 20/20 I suppose but absolutely you have to wonder at the isolation, how it is so easy for people in that situation to go unnoticed.

In the USA, it would be a parental rights issue for the sort of people who believe that the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Children gives children too many rights. Some people think that they should be able to raise their children any damn way they want and the government should never, ever "interfere". They don't view their children as separate entities, but just as mere extensions of themselves.

And parents know best, after all :roll:

[Burris]

I had to add more than one type of bolding - in this case, red for all the red flags - to highlight even some of the troubling statements in 4's comment.

reply #4

This is very sad heart-breaking news, and unfortunately, not the first time a death has happened to an adopted child. But I would like to give some food for thought. As an adoptive mother of eleven (5 RAD, 6 reforming Attachment Disorder), I know the pain a family can experience which does not only include rebellious children but many more devastating actions/experiences pre- and post-adoption. All of our children have lived in fear of what ‘people’ would do or say ‘if they found out’ making it ‘seem’ that we were doing something wrong. In fact, five years ago, except for two families, a whole church (300+ members) turned against us believing we were ‘abusing’ our children at the testimony of one of our daughters. Those two families stuck by us because the same thing had happened within their families at other churches and they could see it for what it was. Now our daughter’s testimony has been reveal for what it was, lies, and by God’s grace fellowship is being restored one family at a time. But our children (birth and adopted) are still ‘gun shy’; if someone ‘defends’ or ‘seems to defend’ one of their rebellious siblings they pull away...fast. ..they do not feel safe with a person who does not know, and probably doesn’t really want to know, the truth.

Many adoptive parents seeking to bless God by adopting an orphan soon learn the depths of sin as listed in Romans 1:29-32. This child of hope and promise (Matt 19:14, 25:37-40 and James 1:27 to name a few) is now wreaking havoc in their home. And there seems no way to stop it, or to protect the other children. Many parents are delighted with the joy of blessing an orphan by bringing them into their family, making them a son/daughter, giving them an inheritance; but not many parents are prepared or equipped for the level of the sin-nature rooted in that child’s heart from years or even a decade-plus of unbridled, unrestrained self-indulgence along with negative influences and experiences. I know we were not!

Now God is faithful and equips us through His Word and by the Holy Spirit; however, God also created us to be in fellowship with other believers. There is often no one in the Church community who will seek to truly understand or to come along side to help with the very dirty job of ‘turning a sinner into a saint’. The prevailing thought of those watching the adoptive parents is, if they only ‘loved more’ or ‘prayed more’ or ‘demanded less’ then the children would become the little darlings birth-children can be. Well, there are no perfect children let alone perfect parents “all have sinned and fall short�. But adopted children no matter the age, (infants are not exempt) come with so much more to deal with than a birth-child, be it pre-natal or post-natal or childhood neglect. There is also the psychological factor of the many ‘why’ questions lurking in the heart of that child as soon as they are able to understand how they came to join the family.

All of us are capable of hate, especially when we do not get what we want. It requires God’s transforming work in our hearts to see and know what love is, a choice and an action (1 John 4 and 1 Cor 13). But God also tells us to hate evil (Ps 97:10) Often what is happening in the hearts of adoptive parents is, they get the ‘love and grace’ part of parenting but not the ‘suffering and testing-faith’ part of parenting; so when ‘evil’ happens at the hand of a child anger and a sense of betrayal occurs leading to hate and rejection of the child and quite possibly abuse; instead, what should happen is understanding the child’s sin, teach and use God’s Word to name that sin and to explain/teach the godly expectation/ behavior. ..over and over again. Oh, is this work, daily and yearly; but there is always fruit even if the child grows up to reject Christ.

I echo Janet’s advice. Your friend probably believes she cannot trust anyone and that no one would ever truly understand. She is probably feeling very frightened and alone. She and/or her husband could very well be going to prison.That is sad, too.

I will be praying for her and you as you minister to her as the Lord leads your heart.

This women...this one, right here - she needs to be watched.

Oh, poor murderers. Their adopted kids, who came from Ethiopia, had lived lives of self-indulgence until those good Christians came to save them from the Dark Heart of Africa.

WHAT THE FUCK?!

[Linnea]

You have to wonder, given the level of sexual repression in some of these fundie families: how much of their adopted childrens' supposed "sin-nature" or "depravity" is actually perfectly normal behavior, like masturbation, expressing curiosity about the opposite sex's parts, etc.?

[Austin]

You have to wonder, given the level of sexual repression in some of these fundie families: how much of their adopted childrens' supposed "sin-nature" or "depravity" is actually perfectly normal behavior, like masturbation, expressing curiosity about the opposite sex's parts, etc.?

Yes, there is a major problem here. Emma described herself as having been "violated" sexually by her adopted daughter from Haiti. She also went on and on with not an exact statement of events but lots of around-the-barn language that the little girl had in some way violated or defrauded her older biological son. She is a very, very evil woman, but at least she didn't kill those poor children. I am so glad they got out of that home because we could very easily be reading this same tragic, senseless crime with that little girl as the victim.

I don't want to address all adoptions here, but I don't believe anyone should be allowed to adopt an older child, particularly internationally, with no accountability afterwards. These agencies should have to have visual one-on-one contact with the child at specific intervals post-adoption and these agency personnel should be required to be well-trained with regard to abuse and neglect. These adoptions are too fraught with major problems and abuse and parents clearly being overwhelmed. If Hana's and her brother's well-being had been checked upon at regular intervals, it would have been much harder for these people to kill her. I think they still would have abused these children because I think they are just hateful, evil people, but I think it is less likely that she would be dead.

[gustava]

Amazon rejected my review of "To Train Up A Child."

This really irritates me because I am one of those crazy free-speech nuts, which means that in general I am opposed to the government using its powers to tell people what they can and cannot read. This also extends to telling merchants what they can and cannot sell. But this case has so disturbed me I have been rethinking this with regards to TTUAC. We know that child pornography is harmful to children, and we also know that TTUAC has led to the deaths and maiming of children. Unlike other books, this isn't a case of a book where it's something suitable for adults but not suitable for children. TTUAC is for one purpose: disciplining children, and it fails in that respect, because kids have died when it's been used as a guide. I don't think it's out of line to call TTUAC as harmful as child porn.

Anyway, for the record, here's my review.

Try adding "As Anne Rice wonders," as the introductory clause in the first sentence of your second paragraph. Then, if it doesn't go through, with your permission, I''ll copy it and try under my moniker.

[theresa]

"I echo Janet’s advice. Your friend probably believes she cannot trust anyone and that no one would ever truly understand. She is probably feeling very frightened and alone. She and/or her husband could very well be going to prison.That is sad, too. "

I would love to post a link to the details of what went on in that family and see where the sympathy lies now on Patriarchs wives digest. Larry and Carrie were fricken demented to treat those "blessings" that way. And no wonder she couldn't trust anyone, I would have turned her ass in, in a minute, had I seen the things she did to them, even feeding them only bread while the family ate other things. Pure evil, in the name of Jesus on top of it.

This lady took away this little girls person-hood, trying to make her into a robot, not even letting her wear the clothes she liked or letting her hair stay long and in braids.

Well, Carri and Larry are not in control of anything now. They are eating what they are told to eat, staying in one room, no windows, wearing what they are told to wear, wait till the get sentenced and transferred to a prison for other people like them, murderers, then they'll get a taste of even more horror, not unlike the horror they dished out to these two precious children!

The name of the digest is called Patriarchs Wives and I've been on it for many years. I used to buy into the whole shabang that you must to be a member.

I get angry reading many of the things now, these women seem very self righteous in many ways.

The lady who originally posted this prayer request left the group shortly after all of this with no explanation. So there won't be any more comments from her.

A lot of these large families to me seem to actually worship the family and make an idol out of their precious families, they can't let them get dirtied by sinners. I'm so happy I'm out of this mentality which is so prevalent in home-schooling circles. This isolationist, children don't need friends, micromanaging ever aspect of your child's life even to the point of choosing their spouse mentality.

Terry

[Guest Anonymous]

kate gosselins sister is trying to raise enough money online to adopt a kid from Ethiopia. Some " Christian FUNDIE" organization over there is selling babies under the religious guise. From what I have read The U.S. Government is investigating that organization. In the meantime Clarissa Kreider Mertz, kates sister has set up an online account pleading for the funds to adopt. She needs 25 thousand and so far has raised or so she says has raise 17, thou plus. I might add Clairissa herself has said they don;t have the money to afford a child so the christian grifter that she is she is looking for everyone else to provide for the kid just like kate grifts freebies for her kids. The mertz'es don't have a steady income either yet she claims they have been approved to get the kid. First she was getting a handicapped girl in a wheelchair and now its changed to a boy. She and her hubby can hardly pay their bills and feed themselves so she is looking for others to pay the bills and provide for their needs. .. How much you want to make a bet they won't be able to pay for the kids needs and dump him a year or so after they get him if they do. Clarissa has been grifting for money for a few wants of hers since kate got famous. She used the pretense that her sister is famous to scam others. Clarissa is a fundie.. not as stricked as Smuggars but she is heading down that path.

[Austin]

"I echo Janet’s advice. Your friend probably believes she cannot trust anyone and that no one would ever truly understand. She is probably feeling very frightened and alone. She and/or her husband could very well be going to prison.That is sad, too. "

I would love to post a link to the details of what went on in that family and see where the sympathy lies now on Patriarchs wives digest. Larry and Carrie were fricken demented to treat those "blessings" that way. And no wonder she couldn't trust anyone, I would have turned her ass in, in a minute, had I seen the things she did to them, even feeding them only bread while the family ate other things. Pure evil, in the name of Jesus on top of it.

This lady took away this little girls person-hood, trying to make her into a robot, not even letting her wear the clothes she liked or letting her hair stay long and in braids.

Well, Carri and Larry are not in control of anything now. They are eating what they are told to eat, staying in one room, no windows, wearing what they are told to wear, wait till the get sentenced and transferred to a prison for other people like them, murderers, then they'll get a taste of even more horror, not unlike the horror they dished out to these two precious children!

The name of the digest is called Patriarchs Wives and I've been on it for many years. I used to buy into the whole shabang that you must to be a member.

I get angry reading many of the things now, these women seem very self righteous in many ways.

The lady who originally posted this prayer request left the group shortly after all of this with no explanation. So there won't be any more comments from her.

A lot of these large families to me seem to actually worship the family and make an idol out of their precious families, they can't let them get dirtied by sinners. I'm so happy I'm out of this mentality which is so prevalent in home-schooling circles. This isolationist, children don't need friends, micromanaging ever aspect of your child's life even to the point of choosing their spouse mentality.

Terry

Terry, I'm glad you're out of that life, too. Very glad. Thank you for sharing glimpses into the minds of some of the wives of the patriarchy. I wish I could say I was surprised, but it still always takes my breath away to hear/see people express the sorts of views that most of these women did.

Would posting a link to the details of what happened get you banned from the site, do you think? Do you think these women would even believe a law enforcement document, or would they just naturally assume that Larry and Carrie simply got overwhelmed by the sinfulness of these adopted children, and very unfortunately, responded sinfully? I'm just truly wondering these things, but if you don't feel comfortable answering, I understand.

[FireIsCatching89]

Yes, there is a major problem here. Emma described herself as having been "violated" sexually by her adopted daughter from Haiti. She also went on and on with not an exact statement of events but lots of around-the-barn language that the little girl had in some way violated or defrauded her older biological son. She is a very, very evil woman, but at least she didn't kill those poor children. I am so glad they got out of that home because we could very easily be reading this same tragic, senseless crime with that little girl as the victim.

I'm willing to bet that Lovelie probably just grazed or placed her head upon Emma's chest. I have little children do that to me all the time, as a comfort thing, and I certainly did it to my mom. While breasts are certainly sexual, they are also maternal, and in the above scenario, they fall into the latter category. Her son? I bet the kids were just playing doctor, as kids are wont to do. Normal, and certainly not violating or sexual. Also, did anyone the power dynamic here? Emma is the mom and therefore has a huge amount of power, as well as being physically stronger than Lovelie; I honestly don't know how Lovelie could violate her (attempt, yes, but actually follow through...?).

That said, if Lovelie truly was acting out sexually, she clearly was almost certainly victimized sexually herself; small children learn that stuff from somewhere, and it's a cry for help, not a sign that the child is possessed by the devil, or whatever. Emma seems to think that no one is a victim except herself.

These poeple astound me with how warped their understandings of sex and sexuality are, and how it harms not just themselves, but the people around them.

And the couple discussed in this thread? Sick, sadistic fucks. I want to cry and vomit, and all I can think is that poor Hana is finally not in pain. I say this as someone who hopes to someday have a family entirely through adoption. This poor child... There truly are no words.

[1004srs]

How can anyone do that to another living creature? THis was a living, breathing, scared little girl. Taken from her country and everything familiar. Given to a bunch of crazy people.

Starve and beat someone to death.

That poor little girl.

[Austin]

The name of the digest is called Patriarchs Wives and I've been on it for many years. I used to buy into the whole shabang that you must to be a member.

Terry

Wow, you're not kidding. I looked up the requirements and they sound pretty hardcore.

I really think that the women of patriarchy oppressing other women in patriarchy is one of the most disturbing things about patriarchy.

Edited to fix quote

[Prek teach]

I have received the Hep B vaccine required by my job, and both of my kids were required to have the Hep B (in three parts) prior to entering K, so what is the problem? Hep B vaccinations are readily available. The vaccination IS a requirement for all incoming students and teachers, just as TB screenings are.

[starfish]

I'm pretty sure these people's kids never had a vaccination of any sort in their entire lives. These are exactly the types of people who are against vaccinations for "religious" e.g. kooky reasons. Oh, they'll beat and starve a kids to death, but consider vaccinations the real abuse.

[Witsec1]

I looked up the Patriarch Wives' mailing list too, and it is sponsored by Family Reformation Ministries, which is none other than Stacy McDonald and her Old Spice man. This is the woman who attacked Quivering Daughters and tried to pretend that of course she would try to stop "real abuse". Going by that thread, she fosters an enviroment where parents who torture and murder their children will find sympathy and support. What a viper.

[Kitty]

I'm pretty sure these people's kids never had a vaccination of any sort in their entire lives. These are exactly the types of people who are against vaccinations for "religious" e.g. kooky reasons. Oh, they'll beat and starve a kids to death, but consider vaccinations the real abuse.

Yeah, they don't want their kids to be brain damaged by the mercury... :roll:

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I have received the Hep B vaccine required by my job, and both of my kids were required to have the Hep B (in three parts) prior to entering K, so what is the problem? Hep B vaccinations are readily available. The vaccination IS a requirement for all incoming students and teachers, just as TB screenings are.

This too. There are ways to sanely handle things.

But if for any reason you can't handle a kid with a disease WITHOUT segregating that kid and treating her like she has cooties, then you should NOT be allowed to live with that kid. I just can't imagine how that girl felt about herself. Treated as contaminated? Even aside from all the rest of the physical abuse, that alone is abuse by itself.

Better to admit defeat and abandon the kid somewhere, she'd be better off (with sane compassionate people!!!) But then I'm sure that would expose some sort of "failure" of this family to the world, so can't have that...

The more I read of this story around the net the more awful it is.

People who are obsessed with their pure families and not wanting their routines upset for even a moment and not wanting their bio-kids exposed to any outside influences at all really should not be adopting kids, particularly not older ones who are already socialized. It's interesting that "Carrie" in this case complained that the girl Hana was too old, a "half grown woman" rather than the little girl she wanted, but... you HAVE to know that going in, when the discussion is about adopting a 12 year old kid from another country. You will never be the only formative influence on that kid's life, the kid already has a life and a past and memories and a personality which (ideally) you will get to share now, not blot out.

[mirele]

Try adding "As Anne Rice wonders," as the introductory clause in the first sentence of your second paragraph. Then, if it doesn't go through, with your permission, I''ll copy it and try under my moniker.

I reread what Anne Rice wrote and I can't legitimately write, "As Anne Rice wonders..." because it gives the impression that she's against Amazon selling the book and I don't think she's quite to that point yet. However, I did resubmit the review with the title "This book has no redeeming value, not even for adults." If it doesn't go through again, I will raise the issue with Amazon's administration, because it's time to cut the Pearls off and make it difficult to get their piece of crap child abuse manual.

ETA: it must have been the title, because it's now live.

[mirele]

Yeah, they don't want their kids to be brain damaged by the mercury... :roll:

What, so they can stay healthy enough to be beaten? *snark*

I'd like to ask these asshats who defend beating their kids the following: if it's a crime to assault and batter another adult (absent circumstances like self-defense), then why shouldn't it be a crime when you do it to your "precious" children?