Murder charges for fundie parents

[BravaAmica]

As far as I know, the kids are with really great foster families. I do not know which church they attended in Skagit County.

This breaks my heart.

ETA:

I hope these kids find awesome forever homes and never see their sorry ass excuses for birth parents again, ever.

[Kaylee]

eta (tl;dr version): They were a QF family who followed the Pearls and were "inspired" to adopt after reading about Nancy Campbell of Above Rubies adopting from Ethiopia & Liberia. They evidently home-churched, or at least had done so in the past. Friends were concerned because she was constantly complaining about the children and saying she hated them, and several people had complained about the family to CPS.

This is what a friend of the family's had to say about them after the girl's death (bold added):

I have a friend that I used to homechurch with that recently lost their 13 year old girl they adopted from Ethiopia 2 years ago..

She died May 12 but now they took all the 8 children from the home. They say it was suspicious and the girl was starved and left outside and she died of hypothermia. Well I have a hard time believing it was hypothermia in May here but whatever.

I saw her in May and she was telling me how much she HATED this little girl.

She said she was ruining her family. :( I remember thinking how harsh she sounded. She was a Pearl Method fallower. But I think took it to the extreme.

I am asking for prayer because I thought of calling her today as the local news has it all over the place. honestly I really have always suspected harsh discipline with her kids. I remember my sons telling me they felt uncomfortable around their kids because they said they seemed like scared little robots.

So I pray the truth is exposed.

I think the hard part here is that everytime I saw her or even any of her close friends saw her she would go on and on and on about how much she hated having these kids. She basically said ALL THE TIME that they were making her life a living hell. It was obvious she had no idea what she was getting into.

She did tell me some things that I thought were harsh punishment. The 13 yo would pee on the carpet, refuse to eat then steal food in the middle of the night. She did all sort of odd behavior. being a foster mom myself I KNOW how hard it is. I had a child with RAD for 4 years and honestly I couldn't stand her much of the time. :( She totally disrupted my family. I had her removed eventually. But I never abused her.

But last month when my friend and I were talking I told her I can relate to alot of the frustration she was telling me but I saw in her eyes ANGER and much bitterness like no tomorrow. Apparently I am not the only one she has shown her frustration too. I just found out that there were several reports recently about how their family treated the adopted kids. So I KNOW there is abuse of some sort to their adopted kids. I do not believe they abused their 7 bio children however. What a HUGE price to pay for trying to do something right in the eyes of God. They messed up and now they are loosing all their children and may spend time in prison.

I feel so sorry for the girl that died. She used to say how much she wanted to go back to Ethiopia.

My friend adopted these children when she heard about Nancy Campell and other AR ladies adopting children from liberia and ethiopia. She couldn't have any more of her own children due to her tubes being taken because of ectopic pregnancies. so she wanted to adopt. She had good intentions.

This is so sad for both parties. I know she has done some wrong and there is NO excuse for it but my heart also goes out to my friend who will never have her children again likely and she did have such a heart for children. Its tragic.

[starfish]

Thanks, Oscar. I've been having a hard time pulling up the affidavit.

You know this Carrie Williams had to be on the internet with a blog or something.

The description of her house reminds me of DeAnna Laney, a fundy fantantic (religious homeschooler, rarely left the house) who murdered two of her three children out of the blue. Lived not too far from me, now calls Texas State Hospital home. There were all kinds of descriptions of her house being immaculate. Now, how do you have three little boys, one of whom is an infant, and have an immaculate house? Since I will never be accused of being that kind of housekeeper, I like to speculate on the link between immaculate housekeeping and insanity and /or being a sociopath. This Carrie Williams demonstrates the link as well. (just trying to be a tiny bit lighthearted in the midst of such a sad story).

[Kelsey]

She had such a heart for children that she allegedly starved them to death and left her outside to freeze to death. What a soft-hearted woman!

[Austin]

Here is a direct link to the arrest affidavit. It's awful.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/66907264/Probable-Cause

OMG. The arrest affidavit is a must read (thank you, Oscar) to fully understand the horror of this case and what these poor babies went through. These people deserve life without parole. They didn't just murder this child; they tortured her first for months and months, along with her brother, who is deaf and mute.

The arrest affidavit is just. . . it is sixteen pages of true horror. It's so unfathomable how these people treated these poor children.

[BravaAmica]

eta (tl;dr version): They were a QF family who followed the Pearls and were "inspired" to adopt after reading about Nancy Campbell of Above Rubies adopting from Ethiopia & Liberia. They evidently home-churched, or at least had done so in the past. Friends were concerned because she was constantly complaining about the children and saying she hated them, and several people had complained about the family to CPS.

This is what a friend of the family's had to say about them after the girl's death (bold added):

Where is this from? And who are these people bemoan the parents' fate? Uh, the parents CHOSE TO BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF THEIR KIDS. Isn't there a lovely Bible verse about reaping what you sow?

I don't feel any pity for the parents. There are resources available to them, particularly as a family that adopted older kids- no one made them beat their children with plumbing line and starve, humiliate and abuse their adopted children. I am delighted they've lost their children. Too often, evil people like this keep their kids. This is one case where the parents are getting exactly what they deserve.

[Austin]

Apparently I am not the only one she has shown her frustration too. I just found out that there were several reports recently about how their family treated the adopted kids. So I KNOW there is abuse of some sort to their adopted kids. I do not believe they abused their 7 bio children however. What a HUGE price to pay for trying to do something right in the eyes of God. They messed up and now they are loosing all their children and may spend time in prison.

WHAT THE FUCK???

What is wrong with these people? Do something right in the eyes of God? Messed up? What fucking planet is this bitch living on?

[Witsec1]

I found the quotes here - not breaking link because it is a blog of a child "training" critic: http://quipshots.wordpress.com/2011/08/ ... questions/

Look in the comments section.

Also in the affadavit it talks about how she complained to her knitting group about the kids -did any of them report it?

[Kaylee]

WHAT THE FUCK???

What is wrong with these people? Do something right in the eyes of God? Messed up? What fucking planet is this bitch living on?

This was from a friend of the woman's who was also a QF homeschooling adoptive mom (that had "Sent some of her kids back"). I get the feeling she was trying to justify part of the childkillers' behavior because she knew she had screwed up with her kids as well. This was originally posted on a QF/fundie email list, so she might have been trying to stay in good graces there, but she left not long after posting this because several people called her out on some of the things in her post and on how she could defend that woman.

There also seems to be this tone to her post like she's excusing what was done to the adoptive kids because she thought her friend was a good mom to her bio children, despite beating them and having them take part in beating the other girl (and making the kids drag her inside with open bleeding wounds and a blood-borne disease). It's beyond scary if that's really how a lot of these people who are adopting for religious reasons really do see the children.

[JesusFightClub]

Raineymott, thanks for both the context and exposing fundie doublespeak. What about this woman and her actions showed a "heart for children", "good intentions" or a leading by her Lord?

Even I would have been a better parent. A traumatised child pees on the carpet. So what? Carpets can be cleaned. The same child refuses then hoards food. Yeah, that's called RAD and PTSD. The way to deal with this isn't to see the child as a demon tormenting you, but as a child tormented by her own demons.

I have knowledge of PTSD in children and while the behaviours can be enraging one should look beyond that to see the hurt and suffering child. I would want to help Hana have a easy and non scary time so she could learn to trust again. A fun Christmas. Redirection and appropriate guidelines and punishments, none of which involve starvation, beatings or being locked outside. Understanding that trauma has shaped her life and she will never be the perfect advert child, but hoping to build a bond of love and acceptance.

This story breaks my heart.

[Lillybee]

Didn't Michael Pearl say something about the fact that he thought that some or most Liberian children were possessed? I can't find it though.

[Witsec1]

The quipshots blogger has some good posts. This one cites characteristics of the "child collector". Interesting how many also apply to the bio child collectors we see here.

· Adopts several unrelated children at the same time or within a short period of time.

· Focuses on adding to the family above stabilizing and effectively rearing the current children in the family…

· Has no significant source of income other than state subsidies or SSI and uses collecting children as a means of income….

· Has a number of adoptees in the household that exceeds the capacity of the parents to individually attend to [their needs]…

· Has a martyr/savior complex. … the adoptive parent feels that they can handle any number of children with any amount of issues because they are “saving†the children. The idea of “saving†is put ahead of the actual responsibility to the child.

· Uses his or her faith to justify any or all choices about the number of children in the home. Fellow worshipers may often offer support without understanding what is really going on in the home.

This post also mentions other risk factors, including home-schooling, which (could) keep the prying and concerned eyes of school officials and child protective services away from any problems in the home, living in a rural or isolated area (making oversight difficult), and frequent moves (to avoid investigations etc.).

http://quipshots.wordpress.com/2011/09/ ... %E2%80%9D/

[starfish]

Her post reminds me of "freehannah.com" where the apologists for Hannah Overton talk about what a great heart she had for her children, except for the adopted one that she murdered by poisoning, after torturing him first.

[thoughtful]

I am fervently hoping that this brings more of what the Pearls and their followers do to light.

Those poor children.

[emmyfair]

Jail is way too good for these "parents" - a roof, a bed, three squares, and a toilet that flushes is way more than they gave that poor girl.

[brashchick]

Oh, those two pieces of shit are just gonna loooooove prison. I hope they never see the light of day again.

[pebbles]

I am so furious I can barely even think straight. These people are pure evil. Adoption is a wonderful thing, but it is so incredibly hard on many different levels, and I am stunned that people like these manage to slip through the net. So she didn't know how to handle her period - could you expect any different? She's 13 years old and speaks little English. If she has an infectious disease, don't make her shit in the back garden like a dog, take the necessary precautions and don't bitch and moan about her 'using too much toilet paper'. Feed your children. When they're stripping off naked in the garden, it's paradoxical undressing, not 'rebellion'. And going to the plumbing supply store with the express intent of purchasing an instrument to physically abuse your children, does that never prick their conscience?

It strikes a particular chord with me because children are 100% dependent upon their caregivers. My mother was extremely physically and emotionally abusive and our "home" was a prison for me where no-one else ever knew what torture I went through. It's the luck of the draw if you get shitty parents or not and poor Hanna paid for it with her life. Children need protection and we (sane) adults should work as hard as possible to give them what they deserve.

[mirele]

I have gotten halfway through the affidavit and I want to just throw up. And then I want to beat the snot out of these so-called parents with my fabulous unbreakable French hairbrush. If I believed in hell, I'd say it's not hot enough yet for these two.

[ThisOlGirl]

I'm only 2 pages into the arrest report, and I'm ready to spit nails. First of all, this asshole didn't "find" Hanna outside. To say she found her outside tells me she didn't know Hanna was out there and had been looking for her. How do you not know where your child is at midnight? She put/left that little girl out there, plain and simple. Then she goes on to say that Hanna was being rebellious by taking her clothes off and acting like she couldn't walk. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but don't victims of hypothermia sometimes start stripping their clothes off thinking they're overheating? I seem to recall reading that somewhere. As for her pretending to not be able to walk, I imagine that a little girl who is severely underweight and starving to death might have some trouble trying to stay upright! What a couple of animals.

ETA: I also find it strange that she supposedly was unable to get Hanna back in the house. If my daughter was outside naked in 42 degree weather and refused to come in, I would bring her in physically. If I was physically unable to do that, I would call the police--before she died, that is. It seems Carri Williams was physically strong enough to beat the shit out of a little girl, so she shouldn't have had a problem bringing all 5 feet and 78 pounds (!) of her in the house.

[Koala]

I don't give a shit how jugemental this sounds: I hope the parents burn in hell. FOREVER. Starting now.

Totally agree....and I don't even believe in hell. But if there was one, these people would bust it wide open for sure

[Bella99]

This may sound horrible, but I think this is one situation where I would vote for separating the children (especially the older ones) instead of trying to keep them together. Not only were they abused themselves, but the older ones were party to it in that they were instructed or encouraged to beat the younger children. They watched their parents treat another human being with less regard than a farm animal. If they are together it might make it easier for them to cling to their old beliefs. Without internalizing different ways these kids pose a real danger to their own children in the future.

[Lillybee]

One thing I read on the report is that she sent one of the boys out to take Hana's shoes and socks off her.

[Austin]

I'm only 2 pages into the arrest report, and I'm ready to spit nails. First of all, this asshole didn't "find" Hanna outside. To say she found her outside tells me she didn't know Hanna was out there and had been looking for her. How do you not know where your child is at midnight? She put/left that little girl out there, plain and simple. Then she goes on to say that Hanna was being rebellious by taking her clothes off and acting like she couldn't walk. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but don't victims of hypothermia sometimes start stripping their clothes off thinking they're overheating? I seem to recall reading that somewhere. As for her pretending to not be able to walk, I imagine that a little girl who is severely underweight and starving to death might have some trouble trying to stay upright! What a couple of animals.

ETA: I also find it strange that she supposedly was unable to get Hanna back in the house. If my daughter was outside naked in 42 degree weather and refused to come in, I would bring her in physically. If I was physically unable to do that, I would call the police--before she died, that is. It seems Carri Williams was physically strong enough to beat the shit out of a little girl, so she shouldn't have had a problem bringing all 5 feet and 78 pounds (!) of her in the house.

I had to take a break after reading that affidavit. OMG.

I enjoy books about mountain climbing and I remember it being mentioned in numerous books on the subject that dring advanced hypothermia, the victim will begin to disrobe, even if it's -30 degree F on a mountain. I just picture this poor child stumbling around (throwing herself on the ground) and taking off her clothes (due to severe hypothermia) and it is just heartbreaking.

To whomever mentioned about separating the younger children from the older children, I haven't thought about that a lot, but it strikes me as the right thing to do. The parents were having these older children beat the younger ones as well as HGW and her brother. It's impossible to know how much of this cruelty and lack of empathy these older children absorbed, but I would want to be very sure that they were deprogrammed from all that before I'd let them near the younger ones. They are all victims, to be sure.

ETA: Here's to hoping that both of them get put in prison with large Ethiopians with bad attitudes.

[theresa]

Hi all, I read about this as I'm on the email loop patriarch's digest and it made me ill. I thought I'd share some of the responses this lady received from the group so you can get a rounded opinion. I've been on this list for many years now but disagree with most everything that is said on it now.

Original Post came through as a prayer request for her friend, the mom.

I have a friend that I used to homechurch with that recently lost their 13

year old girl they adopted from Ethiopia 2 years ago..

She died May 12 but now they took all the 8 children from the home. They say

it was suspicious and the girl was starved and left outside and she died of

hypothermia. Well I have a hard time believing it was hypothermia in May

here but whatever.

I saw her in May and she was telling me how much she HATED this little girl.

She said she was ruining her family. :( I remember thinking how harsh she

sounded. She was a Pearl Method fallower.

But I think took it to the extreme.

I am asking for prayer because I thought of calling her today as the local

news has it all over the place. honestly I really have always suspected

harsh discipline with her kids. I remember my sons telling me they felt

uncomfortable around their kids because they said they seemed like scared

little robots.

So I pray the truth is exposed.

Thanks

reply #1

How sad :-( I have no idea what the Pearl Method is (and probably don't

want to) but would guess that the girl they adopted had RAD (reactive

attachment disorder) or some other attachment disorder. It's much more

common in older children who were adopted (especially if they were

institutionalized) and "regular" discipline methods won't work, which could

easily turn into serious abuse as the discipline escalates due to it not

being successful. My children who were adopted came home as infants and

there were still many things we had to do differently than we did with our

bio kids. I too pray that the truth is revealed, and that the other

children will be protected.

reply #2

How sad and scary. I know CPS does a lot of scary things, but I do know there are some people who treat children horrific ways. Saying that she hated her daughter is horrible!

I pray those children can get some help. What do you think, you as a church family/fellow Christian, could do for the children? Could you go and find out where they are, and give them a care package? You may have to contact the social worker.

reply #3

This is such a sad story. My advice to you is that unless she is a good

friend rather than an acquaintance, you`d be wiser to pray much and talk

little. I am not sure she would be open to a call from someone who is not

directly involved with the family. My heart breaks for all of them - for

the little girl who lost her life, and for the family left behind. If that

young girl had RAD she likely was never able to connect with others.

Perhaps the parents did not know what they were getting into when they

adopted older children.

At any rate, we as a group should pray for the family.

reply #4

This is very sad heart-breaking news, and unfortunately, not the first time a death has happened to an adopted child. But I would like to give some food for thought. As an adoptive mother of eleven (5 RAD, 6 reforming Attachment Disorder), I know the pain a family can experience which does not only include rebellious children but many more devastating actions/experiences pre- and post-adoption. All of our children have lived in fear of what ‘people’ would do or say ‘if they found out’ making it ‘seem’ that we were doing something wrong. In fact, five years ago, except for two families, a whole church (300+ members) turned against us believing we were ‘abusing’ our children at the testimony of one of our daughters. Those two families stuck by us because the same thing had happened within their families at other churches and they could see it for what it was. Now our daughter’s testimony has been reveal for what it was, lies, and by God’s grace fellowship is being restored one family at a time. But our children (birth and adopted) are still ‘gun shy’; if someone ‘defends’ or ‘seems to defend’ one of their rebellious siblings they pull away...fast. ..they do not feel safe with a person who does not know, and probably doesn’t really want to know, the truth.

Many adoptive parents seeking to bless God by adopting an orphan soon learn the depths of sin as listed in Romans 1:29-32. This child of hope and promise (Matt 19:14, 25:37-40 and James 1:27 to name a few) is now wreaking havoc in their home. And there seems no way to stop it, or to protect the other children. Many parents are delighted with the joy of blessing an orphan by bringing them into their family, making them a son/daughter, giving them an inheritance; but not many parents are prepared or equipped for the level of the sin-nature rooted in that child’s heart from years or even a decade-plus of unbridled, unrestrained self-indulgence along with negative influences and experiences. I know we were not!

Now God is faithful and equips us through His Word and by the Holy Spirit; however, God also created us to be in fellowship with other believers. There is often no one in the Church community who will seek to truly understand or to come along side to help with the very dirty job of ‘turning a sinner into a saint’. The prevailing thought of those watching the adoptive parents is, if they only ‘loved more’ or ‘prayed more’ or ‘demanded less’ then the children would become the little darlings birth-children can be. Well, there are no perfect children let alone perfect parents “all have sinned and fall short�. But adopted children no matter the age, (infants are not exempt) come with so much more to deal with than a birth-child, be it pre-natal or post-natal or childhood neglect. There is also the psychological factor of the many ‘why’ questions lurking in the heart of that child as soon as they are able to understand how they came to join the family.

All of us are capable of hate, especially when we do not get what we want. It requires God’s transforming work in our hearts to see and know what love is, a choice and an action (1 John 4 and 1 Cor 13). But God also tells us to hate evil (Ps 97:10) Often what is happening in the hearts of adoptive parents is, they get the ‘love and grace’ part of parenting but not the ‘suffering and testing-faith’ part of parenting; so when ‘evil’ happens at the hand of a child anger and a sense of betrayal occurs leading to hate and rejection of the child and quite possibly abuse; instead, what should happen is understanding the child’s sin, teach and use God’s Word to name that sin and to explain/teach the godly expectation/ behavior. ..over and over again. Oh, is this work, daily and yearly; but there is always fruit even if the child grows up to reject Christ.

I echo Janet’s advice. Your friend probably believes she cannot trust anyone and that no one would ever truly understand. She is probably feeling very frightened and alone. She and/or her husband could very well be going to prison.That is sad, too.

I will be praying for her and you as you minister to her as the Lord leads your heart.

reply #5 same person wrote this as wrote reply #2

I am just not sure I would say that this is okay, that you should support the mom. Starvation can be proven, scientifically. Why she had severe weight loss.....that could be her refusing to eat, but wouldn't a mom take her daughter to the doctor? Why would your daughter be left outside? Is that ever a way to deal with a child? I don't care if this child had RAD, any kind of mental illness or was threatening you, you get them help, you do not let them start starving and leave them outside.

If where they lived was anywhere like here, we had an unusually cold spring. We had freezes here at night until the beginning of June. It was too cold to be sleeping outside and if you did not have good enough clothing on, it would have been easy to freeze to death.

If this child was out of control, there was issues, it would have been better to give up the child to foster care. I do not know this mother, and I know it is easy to say what you should have done, but in what you just said, I am feeling sorry for those children, not the parents.

Reply #6

Katherine, you echo exactly what I wanted to write, but hadn't gotten to

yet. And you said it much better. We have adopted 4 children. The one whom

we adopted as an older child, has problems very similar to RAD, though we've

not gone for a specific diagnosis. He is simply and totally perfect around

those outside the immediate family. No one would believe us if we told of

our struggles. And they are not a drop as bad as so many adoptive parents

whom we have met, have had with their RAD children. Our's is very mild

compared. But I still remember sitting in the living room and hearing our

son stand in the kitchen and sadly tell some visiters how we do not let him

eat! He has absolutely never missed a meal. Never. Yet, he had them

believing that one of our punishments was to not feed him. I could go on

forever, but you said it all.

Of course, I'm not defending the parents if they killed a child! Never! But

if you decide to adopt, please go in with eyes wide open.Leave the rose

colored glasses behind. It is sometimes a whole lot harder than it seems.

And love and structure are not always enough. I know two Christian families

of older adopted children who, on the advice of therapists, have to lock

children in rooms without windows, at night so that they do not leave home

or act out dangerous things to other family members during the night.

I would also say, that sometimes when a frustrated parent might say, "I hate

so and so", it may be that they don't mean that particularly. No, they

should not say it. But they may mean that they are at their wits end and

hate what this child is doing to their family. Even therapists don't know

what to do with these children sometimes. It may be sinful words said in the

heat of frustration.

Reply #7 same person as reply 2&5

Adoption or parenting in general is hard work as well as marriage. I have a husband with a mental disability, so you would not believe some of the things I have to do, so I understand. I have to stay safe and keep the children safe. My children can make people think they never eat too. But anyone spending any time with them, soon realizing that.

One thing I learned is that I need to ask for help, I need to be open with what issues I am facing with professionals sometimes. Something that could be perceived as abuse could be normal with someone with struggles, but sometimes I think if things are to a point where you feel unsafe, you should not feel afraid to let the child get help or go somewhere else.

What a sad thing all around.

reply #8 This is the original poster, the friend of the lady who killed her daughter.

I think the hard part here is that everytime I saw her or even any of her

close friends saw her she would go on and on and on about how much she hated

having these kids. She basically said ALL THE TIME that they were making her

life a living hell. It was obvious she had no idea what she was getting

into.

She did tell me some things that I thought were harsh punishment. The 13 yo

would pee on the carpet, refuse to eat then steal food in the middle of the

night. She did all sort of odd behavior.

being a foster mom myself I KNOW how hard it is. I had a child with RAD for

4 years and honestly I couldn't stand her much of the time. :( She totally

disrupted my family. I had her removed eventually. But I never abused her.

But last month when my friend and I were talking I told her I can relate to

alot of the frustration she was telling me but I saw in her eyes ANGER and

much bitterness like no tomorrow. Apparently I am not the only one she has

shown her frustration too. I just found out that there were several reports

recently about how their family treated the adopted kids. So I KNOW there is

abuse of some sort to their adopted kids. I do not believe they abused

their 7 bio children however. What a HUGE price to pay for trying to do

something right in the eyes of God. They messed up and now they are loosing

all their children and may spend time in prison.

I feel so sorry for the girl that died. She used to say how much she wanted

to go back to Ethiopia.

My friend adopted these children when she heard about Nancy Campell and

other AR ladies adopting children from liberia and ethiopia.

She couldn't have any more of her own children due to her tubes being taken

because of ectopic pregnancies. so she wanted to adopt. She had good

intentions.

This is so sad for both parties. I know she has done some wrong and there is

NO excuse for it but my heart also goes out to my friend who will never have

her children again likely and she did have such a heart for children. Its

tragic.

reply #9

That is such a true statement, Katherine. I love the family's we attend church with dearly. But, we weren't able to make it to church for nearly a month while doing foster care last year, we didn't even get a phone call. Not to put all them blame on as backing out on them.....but we just didn't have a support system. There was many a night I cried out to God. But, as we saw our two children withdraw more and more...we had to stop doing foster care for them. So I say all of this to remind you all if any family in your church is doing foster care or adopting children, please remember they need you. Whether it is a phone call, a meal, etc. anything whether big or small, will be very appreciated. :)

And I agree...even if they are adopted as infants there are issues that spring up.

reply #10

When or if (not sure and not drawing a conclusion about this case at all beause I don't even know the people) things become so severe that a mom can't stand a child in the home, why not ask for help or "rehome" them? I see this sort of story being repeated in the news and it's scary. There are options. And it doesn't have to be an adopted child to be a RAD child with adjustment issues. The sad part is many times it's not the child but failure of the parent to bond and deal with life. This is why adoptive parents get bad names and older adoptive children do, too. I've been around adoption a long time. A bio can have the same issues.

Praying for the family and children. I'm sure most parents even if they did acutally do something, didn't mean to *hurt* anyone or set out to adopt to *hurt* someone. Not saying they anything did at all! Just sad!!! Everyone loses .. not only them losing this child but their other children may lose their parent(s) and and they lose a sibling.

reply #11

That is so sad. I don't believe in using the Pearl's method of discipline at all and you definitely wouldn't want to use it with an adopted child. I am very pro adoption. Both of our children are adopted. We had originally planned to adopt through the foster care system but found that only older children were mainly available. We found that bringing in children older or close to our children's age was having a negative effect on them. And the discipline issues were huge. Over the past year I have felt like quite the failure for not being able to go through with the plan of adopting through foster care. It's so sad to think about that poor 13 year old girl dying and that the mother said she hated her. I just can't imagine.

reply #12

I think you need to stop. You have tried and convicted this woman, and you

*do not know* what went on in their home. She shared things with you that

you thought were harsh...maybe they were, maybe you just thought they

were. She said things she maybe shouldn't have...she must have thought you

were a safe person to share with.

I am not excusing what she said, I am not excusing things that may have

been done wrong...or criminally. But the point is: we DON'T know. How

would you feel if this was your family? What would you think if you knew

that someone you had shared some of your life with was sharing those

things world wide? You may have had a child with RAD in your home for a

time, that doesn't mean that you understand what she was dealing with.

Just today, we've heard of varying degrees of how it affects children ~

and the families they are a part of.

We need to be careful that when we share prayer requests, we are not

gossiping. It is very easy to share more information than we ought. Or to

share a prayer request and then give commentary. We want to be certain

that the things we write, as well as what we say are God honoring.

If it is determined that there were criminal things going on, the law will

step in. This family needs prayer, not condemnation and judgement.

reply #13

"I would also say, that sometimes when a frustrated parent might say, "I hate

so and so", it may be that they don't mean that particularly. No, they

should not say it. But they may mean that they are at their wits end and

hate what this child is doing to their family. Even therapists don't know

what to do with these children sometimes. It may be sinful words said in the

heat of frustration. " -kathy g.

Â

Kathy, you are very wise there. :) I can remember when we first adopted once child and at that time she did go to public school (not for the last 4 yrs though). I was surprised Dept of Social Services never came to my door. She always had self inflicted bruising that her teachers believed me when I said she did it to herself. She did!!! She'd agree with anything anyone would say. My parents even quizzed her before about all sorts of things. She'd say whatever my parents guided her to. We went through the stealing, lies, hoarding, all sort of things!  She's recovering and doing so well and a *good* child. She wants to be. Now it's that we're learning the lead exposure and severe malnutrition prior to us at age 6 and even possible fetal alcohol exposure .... she may always be 9-10 in her brain. It's tough! People don't understand unless they've lived it.  It's tough being the external brain for some of these kids. The only things a RAD child can

truly control are their food intake and "output". I'm not a pro at it all. I'm still learning a lot.

reply #14

The 13 yo > would pee on the carpet, refuse to eat then steal food in the middle of the

> night. She did all sort of odd behavior. "Â

Â

For an IA (internationally adopted) child, these aren't "odd behaviors". These are behaviors that seem extreme to us but depict a very scared and emotionally out of control child not knowing how to better deal with her new life and changes. These behaviors are right in line with what to expect with an older child until they grasp a better idea of the language (this takes YEARS for receptive and expressive) and what's expected and how to learn to love and be accepted for whom they are. Only two years at home, if this is the same child we're referring to, is no time at all her for to completely adjust. She needed years to settle in. Then add her delays if she was in an orphanage for 10 years ....think for every 3 months in an orphanage she'd be 1 month delayed. So she couldn't even begin to function anywhere near the age she was. I wonder how much adoption training they or other families have.

That's it, for now. Hope it helps shed some light on how some of these women think.

Terry

[SamuraiKatz]

Those poor children! I am speechless.....my heart broke as I read the police report. I hope Michael and Debi Pearl are ultimately held responsible for the misery and torture they facilitated.