Stockdale family murders

[CrazyMumma]

@TisaWee Farm, I'm really sorry for the loss of your friends.  It seems as though you were very close to the parents? I'm a 29 yr old... and it's only now that I've been even slightly willing to share with close friends of the family the abuse that my siblings and I experienced.  I've only been able to do that since a) having left home 10 yrs ago,  b ) being in a loving relationship which has helped me heal and c) going through a year of counselling.  I grew up in a physically and emotionally abusive home and yet my parents never actually managed to get such implicit obedience out of us that you described.  NEVER.  

[Palimpsest]

I found an article from today here that discusses trial complications.

It sounds as though Jacob hasn't been charged yet and the county jail couldn't take care of his medical needs even if he were.  He could have been released from the hospital into a rehab facility.

I hope he has a good lawyer.

9 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Next time you are in this position, you could make a Greyhound with vodka and grapefruit juice,

I prefer my Greyhounds warm, furry, and snuggled on the couch next to me keeping their sharp elbows to themselves, but that sounds good.

[TisaWee Farm]

If there is only one thing I can impart, it is that the home was not physically, emotionally, or any other way, abusive.  Ask the grown children.  "It was paradise" was one quote made by a son that I remember from the funeral.   They believed in working hard, and will tell you that from the get-go.  They joked about it.  The boys thrived on being responsible and hard-working, but they also had plenty of time to just "be boys" and hang out with friends. 

As for the odd diet, maybe that is only odd to you.  If you are a yuppie and think it is healthy for your child to eat only organic, and kefir and fermented juices, would someone yell "abuse" on you?   They were into a natural diet, which included natural preventative measures, such as cod liver oil.  (But they didn't do the cod liver oil since the kids were little.  That's another sensationalized tidbit someone has grabbed onto and won't let go).  The kids had medical and dental attention when needed, and were very healthy, mostly due to their lifestyle.   Edited to add... yes, Kathy had some odd ideas about diets and changed them around a lot.  The most recent was the leaky gut diet hoping to figure out some food allergies.  But it was never done with sinister intentions or deprivation.  People flock to fad diets all the time.  People go "gluten-free" now, or Paleo, or vegan, or whatever the fad is.  She was doing what she thought was healthy for her family as she knew it at the time.  Nothing abusive about that.  

As for the two questions asked previously, no, I never saw any indication that Jacob was struggling with anything.  Someone posted a comment (not here) that Jacob" looked possessed when he was playing his fiddle, and, at one point, stared blankly into space."  Have you ever watched a musician that is so completely "into" what he is doing?  Jacob was a champion fiddler.  He was VERY, VERY good.  He played very intricate pieces sometime and would be completely in the zone with his music.  That is a very common sight for any good musician.  Maybe not if you are watching a musician that is just trying to entertain the audience with all their facial grimaces and body language...but that's the difference between and entertainer and a musician.   Jacob was the serious one in the family, while James was the comedian and front man.  If there was ever any sibling rivalry, I never saw it except in good-natured ribbing and sporting events. 

I don't know if Jacob will recover to the point of remembering what happened.  This level of trauma, along with the brain damage... its highly unlikely that the amnesia from that day will go away.   He is physically recovering, however.

[Palimpsest]

I want to point out that the Stockdale case isn't unique, nor is having a traumatized community, and no-one can stop the general public discussing what might have happened and wondering about the causes.  In this recent case the (alleged) killer's friends can't believe he did it either.   But there were warning signs prior to the murders.  Enough to warrant calling the police.

Spoiler

AYER, MA — The 22-year-old suspect in a gruesome quadruple murder killed his mother, grandparents and their caretaker, possibly with a baseball bat, prosecutors said Monday. And police were warned about him in the hours leading up to the murder.

Orion Krause, of Rockport, Maine, appeared in Ayer District Court Monday morning, facing four counts of murder stemming from Friday night's violence in Groton, Massachusetts. He was ordered held without bail as he undergoes a mental health evaluation at Bridgewater State Hospital. A competency hearing is tentatively scheduled for Oct. 30.

Groton Police responded early Friday evening to a report of a person needing assistance on Common Street. That person, reportedly a neighbor who found a naked, bloody and muddy Krause on his doorstep declaring he "murdered four people," pointed police to another Common Street residence. There, police found the bodies of an elderly man and woman and two middle-aged women. Three of the bodies were found inside the house and the other was found outside. 

The bodies have since been identified as Krause's grandparents, Elizabeth Lackey, 85, and Frank Lackey, 89, who were both residents of the Common Street house; his mother, Elizabeth Krause, 60, of Rockport, and Bertha Mae Parker, 68, of Groton, a home health care worker who did not live in the Common Street home.

The Middlesex DA's office said a preliminary investigation seems to point to a still unfolding story: Krause apparently traveled from Rockport to the Boston area on Thursday. The following day, he met his mother, where they traveled to visit his grandparents on Common Street. At some point during the visit, he allegedly inflicted fatal, blunt-force injuries to all the victims.

A baseball bat was found in the yard and is believed to have been used, prosecutors say.

Wagner Alcocer, who lives on Common Street, told the Associated Press Krause showed up at his home naked and muddy following the murders. Alcocer said Krause declared he "just murdered four people," according to the AP.

"He looked like a nice kid who needed help, he was skinny (and) tall. I thought he was the victim of the prank, or in an accident or had a mental health problem. He wasn't bleeding profusely or anything," Alcocer said, according to the AP.

In the hours leading up to the murder, police received several calls about the man.

Elizabeth Krause contacted Rockport Police Thursday night saying her son had left his home and asked police to keep an eye out for his vehicle. Others reached out to police Friday, allegedly having a "concerning conversation" with Krause, prosecutors said.

It's a different picture than the one painted by people who knew him Monday. The AP reported Krause, a talented jazz musician who had just graduated from Oberlin College in Ohio, was described as a good friend who showed no signs that he was troubled.

A longtime friend of Krause's said he was shocked, calling him a great student and phenomenal musician who was well-liked by everyone. Wolfgang Boegel said he played basketball with Krause just two weeks ago and everything seemed normal.

"This is the most devastating news I've ever heard in my entire life," said Boegel, 22, who now lives in Portland, Maine. "I was in complete disbelief. I didn't think it was real at first."

Nancy Rowe, the band director where Krause went to high school, said he was a wonderful student who had a "twinkle in his eye" and was always eager to learn. He excelled in music, particularly the jazz drum, Rowe said.

Krause's father would help chaperone trips with the jazz band at Camden Hills Regional High School and both his parents were very supportive of his musical endeavors, Rowe said.

"I just can't make sense of any of it," Rowe said. "The Orion Krause that I knew here at Camden Hills would never have done something like that he is being accused [of]."

Groton is a town of about 10,000 in the western part of the Merrimack Valley. In 2014 musician John Warren Geils Jr. was found dead in his home at 71. Police ruled the death of natural causes. There has not been a murder in the community for quite some time. 

 

https://patch.com/massachusetts/westford/groton-murders-suspect-orion-krause-court

[formergothardite]

30 minutes ago, TisaWee Farm said:

it is that the home was not physically, emotionally, or any other way, abusive.  Ask the grown children.  "It was paradise" was one quote made by a son that I remember from the funeral.  

The thing is, you don't actually know. Apparently the mother was at least okay with appearing to be controlling to the point of being abusive, which is a huge, huge red flag. 

I'm not sure how much you know of the Duggars, Bates, Gothard or IBLP, but IBLP is a cult that the two families are long time members of that is filled with stories of abuse. It is also has lots of stories of people describing it like a paradise and claiming that there is no way it was abusive. When people finally came out with the stories of the emotionally, spiritual and physical abuse they experienced, they were often met with detractors who said they had to be lying because people were there with them at these events and didn't see the abuse. But the abuse happened. Horrible, horrible things happened and people sharing rooms for months with abuse victims didn't see it. I personally experienced emotional abuse that I kept hidden from even my parents till I was in my 30's. If you had asked them, they would have said I had a great time and nothing bad happened. When I brought it up on an ATI survivor group, people who had spent all day with me for months were surprised, they didn't know any of the stuff that happened to me was going on. 

The point is, no one actually knows what went on in that family, but the fact that the mother portrayed herself on television and then on the internet as abusive isn't exactly a good sign. 

[TisaWee Farm]

But there weren't warning signs in the Stockdale case.  No phone calls to the police.  Comparing the two isn't accurate.  

I agree with your first statement, however and believe a healthy discussion and "what-ifs" are fine.  I was only trying to bring something factual to the table and dispel some inaccuracies.  Isn't that part of a healthy discussion?

4 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

The point is, no one actually knows what went on in that family, but the fact that the mother portrayed herself on television and then on the internet as abusive isn't exactly a good sign. 

I'm sorry that you suffered abuse.  

I'm still struggling, however, to see where the mother portrayed herself as abusive.  I'll admit, I didn't see the show on television (I, too, don't watch TV), so I don't know how it came across.  I have read her stories, however, and I think she comes across more preachy and high-handed than she really was.

 

[Palimpsest]

2 minutes ago, TisaWee Farm said:

But there weren't warning signs in the Stockdale case.  No phone calls to the police.  Comparing the two isn't accurate.  

I agree with your first statement, however and believe a healthy discussion and "what-ifs" are fine.  I was only trying to bring something factual to the table and dispel some inaccuracies.  Isn't that part of a healthy discussion?

Comparing the two is perfectly valid.  My point is (and if you read back you can see my previous posts on this) it is extremely rare for there to be NO warning signs whatsoever and extremely common for people who think they know the family well not to know about them.

My guess is that Orion had a history of mental health issues, his mother and family knew about them, but they were not discussed outside the family.  His friends did not know about them.  However, Orion was sent straight to a mental health facility that is also a prison for a competency evaluation.  He did not get sent to jail.

Thank you for bringing your perspective to the table.  But, my point is that shiny exteriors often conceal extreme family dysfunction and you may not have been able to see, or are in denial about, the dysfunction.

I still think that the levels of control as described by Kathryn on her blog and in that dreadful manual approach the pathological.  The food and diet is only a tiny part of it.  

That is what we are discussing in a healthy manner.  I'm sorry you are upset by it.

[SoGladIWasCofE]

The fact that lots of people put their kids on fad diets doesn't make it ok.

I agree that diets more likely to be followed by wealthy, high status people are less likely to be seen as abuse, but that doesn't mean they're not.

If someone is constantly changing from strict diet to strict diet, that's a bad sign.

Also funeral speeches are not good for accurate info on family situation. I mean, kids who've been abused usually take a while to process that, and even if they really dislike the parent, aren't going to stand up at the funeral and say "so, my mother was an awful person who made my life hell", even if that's their honest opinion.

[formergothardite]

10 minutes ago, TisaWee Farm said:

I'm still struggling, however, to see where the mother portrayed herself as abusive.  I'll admit, I didn't see the show on television (I, too, don't watch TV), so I don't know how it came across.  I have read her stories, however, and I think she comes across more preachy and high-handed than she really was.

Did you read the family manual that was kept up until very recently? It has been removed now, but it was up when the thread started. It portrayed her and the dad and controlling to the point of being abusive, at least in my opinion. If it didn't reflect what sort of parents they were, why would they have kept it up all those years? 

This is from @DinglyDoll about the book she wrote on family rules:

Quote

The boys couldn't chose one thing for themselves. The mom controlled absolutely everything: their behavior, attitude, food, clothing, education, work, chores, daily schedule, activitities. How dehumanizing! They had no free agency to determine anything about themselves for themselves. I can see how this poor kid was lead to shoot them and himself. 

I personally give the side eye to any parents who put their kids on reality television. Allowing children to be exploited on television is not a sign of good parenting. I think that in the not so distant future we will realize how bad it is to sell the lives of children as entertainment. 

[Palimpsest]

You know, I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the Stockdales in that they may not have known the dangers of reality TV.  Whether they went on Wife Swap for financial reasons, to spread the word about their Christian beliefs and controlling child-rearing methods, or to give their home-schooled children a new experience doesn't really matter.

Lots of people get seduced into Reality TV and the dangers were't as obvious when the Stockdales did Wife Swap. Even now the word hasn't spread far enough about how dangerous it is.  People can warn but others do not have to listen.

What I find freaky is that the Stockdales seemed to like the show and there is no evidence that they thought it inaccurate or exaggerated.  On the contrary, the blog seems to demonstrate that they were proud to have been featured - and they kept that horrible manual front and central.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Quote

The *insert name* that I knew here at Camden Hills would never have done something like that he is being accused 

This the typical statement that people who "knew well" a family murder ususually issues after the tragedy. It's normal in my experience.

The the issue is in that "the person I knew". As a professional I know that the person friends know is on one side of a much more complex all around person.

38 minutes ago, TisaWee Farm said:

I agree with your first statement, however and believe a healthy discussion and "what-ifs" are fine.  I was only trying to bring something factual to the table and dispel some inaccuracies.  Isn't that part of a healthy discussion?

If it were factual yes. But the thing is that it is just your opinion. You didn't report facts or episodes. And while your opinion, as someone who actually knew/knows them, may be of some more value than mine, it is still just an opinion.

But while I clearly state that mines are opinions deducted from what few facts we know about them, you refuse to state yours as opinions and demand we value them as facts just because you knew them. In any other tragic circumstance we don't value character evaluation from friends as facts but just as opinions, more informed than ours maybe (often though being near someone can alter the perspective and make it very unbalanced) but just opinions. I don't see reasons to change approach in this instance.

[JermajestyDuggar]

When people think of child abuse their minds always go straight to molestation, beatings, neglect, and verbal abuse like name calling and berating. 

I have not seen instances of that from this family but I do think extreme control over your children is abusive. And since each child is born with different personalities and abilities, each child deals differently with that extreme control. Some can deal well with it. Some cannot. That's why you will always get different outcomes from abusive parenting methods. Just because the older boys are leading good productive and seemingly happy lives does not mean their controlling parenting was right. Look at the famous and successful adults that had abusive parents. Would you say their parents raised them well because the person is now an admired and successful person? 

[DancingPhalanges]

I'm on my mobile per usual and trying very hard to just say a few things and move on. 

@TisaWee Farm Children are sometime targeted specifically by a parent. The other kids become acclimated to their sibling being treated more harshly or are told that child needs it.  I don't know what happened and neither do you. The ones who lived in the home are the closest and they may be in denial. The biggest enemy to any abused child is the insistence that it can't happen/didn't happen because the parents were so nice/normal. The brothers may also have been favorites and treated differently in the home out of your view. 

Okay? Lots of people close to tragedies end up shocked by an act of violence. It's hidden well, people are manipulated expertly by abusers. 

Sometimes an emotionally fragile or sensitive child is crushed by an austere home. Their needs are not met and in fact it becomes impossible for them. 

I can speculate but I don't know. If I ran in their music crowd and got updates I still wouldn't know. A good family face to the public can be done. Until all of the possibilities are accepted then children will continue to be dismissed in their pain. 

I am sorry for your shock and hurt over this tragedy.

*paragraphing is poor but I'm anxious and need coffee

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

33 minutes ago, SoGladIWasCofE said:

Also funeral speeches are not good for accurate info on family situation. I mean, kids who've been abused usually take a while to process that, and even if they really dislike the parent, aren't going to stand up at the funeral and say "so, my mother was an awful person who made my life hell", even if that's their honest opinion.

I remember sitting and listening to two friends discuss the surreal experience of being at the funeral of an abusive man (2 separate men at 2 separate funerals) and hearing friends and family praise him. Each was at the funeral to support a young family member, so neither would have done anything to disrupt the praise, but they each remembered sitting and thinking, "Well, I don't know who these people are talking about. That isn't the man I knew!"

I don't know anything about this family, but it would be unrealistic to expect honest criticism at anyone's  funeral. 

[VVV]

Here is a cached version of the family manual; I just checked the link and as of the time of this posting it is still working. I urge @TisaWee Farm in particular to read it, keeping in mind that (a) this is supposedly in the mother's own words and (b) whether she was egged on by the show's producers to sensationalize it or not, she chose to leave it on the family blog for years. I found it difficult to read through to the end.

http://web.archive.org/web/20170616183644/http://stockdalefamilyband.com/stockdale-family-manual/

[Palimpsest]

8 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

but they each remembered sitting and thinking, "Well, I don't know who these people are talking about. That isn't the man I knew!"

That reminds me of the funeral of an extended family member who died from complications of diabetes in his early 40s.  He was the father of a 12 year old and a 10 year old who had been bounced to hell and back.  Custody had been shifted from Mother (completely dysfunctional substance abuser) to Father (minor criminal record, and active alcoholic, which does not go well with Type 1 diabetes) to living with grandparents and various uncles and aunts, while dad made unsuccessful attempts to dry out.  Yes, CPS was involved.

The Catholic priest stood and talked at the children about their wonderful father, the altar boy, the Eagle Scout, the valedictorian, the guy who never missed Mass, and told them they should use him as a model for their lives going forward.

Their Uncle R, who ended up with permanent custody, stood up for the eulogy.  (Paraphrase) "Children <names>.  What Father meant to say was that your Dad loved you very much.  He struggled with many things in his life and made many mistakes but he always loved you.  We know he is at peace now and in Heaven (insert Catholic stuff) but what he wanted for you was to live your lives differently and not make the same mistakes he made. "

All the mourners restrained themselves from giving him a hearty round of applause.  The children are now all grown up and doing very well at living life without making Dad's mistakes. 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? Yes I've also had the experience of being at the funeral of a friend's abusive SOB father (physically, emotionally, verbally to wife and children)  and hearing him praised as a kind, loving, wonderful father and husband and a godly decent Christian man.

I have no idea who they were talking about, because it wasn't the person I knew or had seen lash out at his family.  Since I was close friends with the kids, I guess he figured it didn't matter if I saw, and since I was a kid who would believe me.  The rest of the world never saw that -- although he was known to be a strict father and not an easy man to get along with.

My friend had what i can only describe as Stockholm Syndrome in that he refused to acknowledge for years and years and years that the father was an abusive asshat. Refused to admit his father had ever done anything.

The most my friend would concede is that Dad had a temper. But would always follow that up with 'Dad lost his temper because we children weren't behaving', and if his mom 'Hadn't made Dad angry he wouldn't have yelled at her and hit her those few times.  It was totally her fault.'  

So yeah, even though I saw the guy lash out a few times, I have no idea what it was like when I wasn't there.  If I had never seen it, I wouldn't have known anything as none of the kids ever said or hinted at anything and neither did his wife.

[Palimpsest]

I really think it is unhealthy to refuse to speak ill of the dead.  I think being realistic is so much better.  Praise what was good, acknowledge the faults, and wish them peace.  If you can.

Probably the most honest and scathing obituary in history is under the spoiler.  It went viral and the family got huge criticism for it.  Apparently there was nothing good to praise.

Spoiler

The most scathing obituary in history? Children of abusive mother hold nothing back

The surviving children of a Reno woman who they say abused her penned a scathing obituary of her that appeared, briefly, on the website of the Reno Gazzette-Journal. 

 Appearing Tuesday on the Reno Gazette-Journal's website, the terse obituary commemorates the life and misdeeds of Marianne Theresa Johnson, who died at the age of 77 on Aug. 30.

“She is survived by her 6 of 8 children whom she spent her lifetime torturing in every way possible,” the obituary states. “While she neglected and abused her small children, she refused to allow anyone else to care or show compassion towards them. When they became adults she stalked and tortured anyone they dared to love. Everyone she met, adult or child was tortured by her cruelty and exposure to violence, criminal activity, vulgarity, and hatred of the gentle or kind human spirit.”

Apparently, the tone of the obituary went over the line for the editors at the Journal, as it was removed from the newspaper’s site later in the day. Images of the piece were captured and posted to Gawker before it was taken down, however.

“On behalf of her children whom she so abrasively exposed to her evil and violent life, we celebrate her passing from this earth and hope she lives in the after-life reliving each gesture of violence, cruelty, and shame that she delivered on her children,” the obituary continues. “Her surviving children will now live the rest of their lives with the peace of knowing their nightmare finally has some form of closure."

While few other records of Johnson’s life can be found online, Gawker did track down testimony by a Reno-area woman of the same name given to the Nevada Equal Rights Commission explaining that the employment agency where she worked marked job referrals with the words “Whites Only” so that black people wouldn’t waste their time applying.

Other than that, however, Johnson’s legacy will now be summed up by her surviving children.

“Most of us have found peace in helping those who have been exposed to child abuse and hope this message of her final passing can revive our message that abusing children is unforgivable, shameless, and should not be tolerated in a ‘humane society,’” the obituary concludes. “Our greatest wish now, is to stimulate a national movement that mandates a purposeful and dedicated war against child abuse in the United States of America.” 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/reno-woman-obituary-scathing-time-article-1.1451473

 

 

[Snarkle Motion]

Obviously we can't know if abuse was in the home or not, it is often hidden. The fact that a child described it as paradise is actually a bit suspect in my opinion. That feels overtop and possibly defensive as most people would acknowledge some difficulties/problems with their upbringing even if overall it was happy. But I may be taking it out of context.

I don't doubt that there are a lot of things from the wife swap episode that suggest abuse. And abuse could have contributed to this. But mental health issues can also cause violence against family without any history of abuse or maltreatment. Jacob was at an age that people typically are when experiencing their first "psychotic break" in schizophrenia.

I've worked with teens with psychotic disorders, some appearing very "normal" on the outside, and pretty much all violent command hallucinations people reported were directed toward family members (or themselves, often both). Likely because they have greatest contact/exposure with people in their family that's who he auditory hallucinations tend to fixate on.

While I think it's fair to discuss the case, I also think it's valid to get first hand accounts of the family and consider alternate perspectives. Yes it's highly probable that if abuse occurred it was hidden and of course family/friends will view the family through biased lenses. But I'd hate to think that this was a mental health crisis and the deceased was completely blamed for the actions and remembered forever as abusive if the story was more complicated. I imagine that would be extremely hard for family and friends who are currently grieving and trying to make sense of the tragedy.

[KnittingOwl]

3 hours ago, TisaWee Farm said:

Edited to add... yes, Kathy had some odd ideas about diets and changed them around a lot.  The most recent was the leaky gut diet hoping to figure out some food allergies.  But it was never done with sinister intentions or deprivation.  People flock to fad diets all the time.  People go "gluten-free" now, or Paleo, or vegan, or whatever the fad is.  She was doing what she thought was healthy for her family as she knew it at the time.  Nothing abusive about that.  

I don't get this BS about controlling food allergies. I have multiple food allergies. You know how I control them? I don't eat them!

If her adult children had issues with food allergies, she should have encouraged them to see an allergist. If they were having GI symptoms for long periods of time, go to a gastroenterologist. 

[FeministShrew]

Back before I left religion, I went to the funeral of an elderly man I usually sat behind in church. (He died when his tractor flipped upside down on him while he was trying to move a stump, two blocks from my house & right beside the church.) I told one of his daughters that he was a sweet man, who always smiled and spoke kindly to me & my kids -which was true.
She looked me in the eye & said, "That's kind of you to say, but he was the devil himself to us." His other daughter, who I knew from church, said, "He made our lives hell growing up, and he's tortured and tormented our mom every day of their marriage." Turns out he inflicted horrible physical & emotional abuse on his family. His wife was terrified of him, but refused to leave him, partly because of religion, partly because he told her he'd burn their daughters' houses down if she went to live with either of them. No one in the community knew anything about it, and he was loved & respected outside of his family.

The mom changed completely after he died. She was in her late 60s but looked 2 years older. She started dressing in modern clothes, going to the beauty shop, and wearing a bit of makeup & jewellry. She had been frightfully skinny, but started filling out. He had controlled what she ate. Her daughters said they were so happy she outlived her husband & got to enjoy the rest of her life.
I worry about my kids' stepbrother & sister. Ex & his wife pulled her daughter out of school a few years ago because they claimed she had learning disabilities and would learn better at home. Then they started homeschooling her older brother as punishment because he & his school friends had been caught shoplifting candy. (Yes, they actually gave punishment as a reason for taking him out of school.)

The kids are 17 & 14 now, and have become increasingly isolated. They left their homeschooling co-op, my ex adopted them, so they don't get to see their dad's family, and even my (adult) kids and their older half-sisters aren't welcome anymore, because they don't conform to my ex's weird ideals. (He's the self-proclaimed pastor who has a "church" in his parent's old trailer - congregation consisting of his wife & the two kids, sermons broadcast live on FB. So there's no socializing with friends at church, either.) The last few times my kids were there, they noticed strict control over food, and access to food.
I will not be surprised if one of those kids snaps one of these days. I'm just glad I got my kids away before ex went off the deep end.

[Destiny]

[mention=11277]Destiny[/mention] Yes, "suicides," you remembered correctly. I thought this was a local thing. Did you get yours at Sheetz?

Oh, and what [mention=11537]VVV[/mention] said!

 

I did not cos I have never heard of that place. What was kid us thinking?

[JermajestyDuggar]

We also called them suicides too. Sheetz is a big gas station. Like 7/11 but I think Sheetz has even more snacks and drinks. I tasted a suicide as an adult. Yuck. 

[hoipolloi]

5 hours ago, TisaWee Farm said:

(But they didn't do the cod liver oil since the kids were little.  That's another sensationalized tidbit someone has grabbed onto and won't let go).

Thanks to @VVV, you can read the Stockdalesʻ "Family Manual" yourself and see that, in fact, Kathy Stockdale did insist the boys consume cod liver oil daily (under Cooking & Meals):

Quote

Food nourishes the mind and the body so it is very important in this family. That's why I insist on giving the boys a spoonful of cod liver oil every dinner time; it helps keep their heart, bones and brain healthy.

 @TisaWee Farm, sympathy to you on the deaths of your friends, but you clearly did NOT know everything that was going on in that family. So, in this matter at least, your views are no more or less "factual" than anyone else's.

[SoGladIWasCofE]

I agree that the cultural thing about not speaking ill of the dead is unhealthy. Funerals are complicated, I think there's a line to strike between honesty and idealism. 

A relative of mine was a mean, argumentative bitch. She was "never afraid to speak her mind" according to the guy doing the funeral.

Also agree that describing your home as paradise is odd.