Joy and Austin: Switzerland to the Backwoods of Arkansas

[mpheels]

Jumping on the career talk - I majored in anthropology for undergrad. I immediately went into a professional degree program, and never "used" my anthropology degree in a traditional sense. It did serve as a fantastic foundation for the rest of my education and career. I learned to view the world through different lenses, and understand culture shapes behavior (and behavior shapes culture). I'm pretty good at stepping back from a situation, recognizing my own bias, and putting together a more objective picture. I ultimately ended up in healthcare research, but could see an anthropology degree being very useful in a lot of fields, especially medical and legal fields. I Imagine anthropology majors would make great spies!

[Georgiana]

1 minute ago, Swamptribe said:

I find the attitude expressed by so many on this board, that somehow, getting married is the end of 'fun' or experience in life, a bit disturbing.   (and yes, I know the Duggars are kind of a weird situation).  Getting married young (or at all) doesn't mean you are settling.  Married people can still go on to get a higher education.  They can still travel and have great life experiences. You can still experience life in all it's glory. What it very much means is that you have chosen a proverbial partner in crime to share all those exciting things with. To share your future with.  You take the journey together.

Insisting that someone should 'shop around' or get their degree and have a life, before they get married is just as judgemental and small minded as the Duggars courting/marriage mindset is. 

Eh, I think there's a huge difference there.  Marriage is, for better or for worse, a legal contract that has implications.  You can have someone be your partner in crime and share experiences with you without locking yourself into a marriage.

It's like renting vs buying a home.  Nothing WRONG with buying a house right out of high school if you can afford it, but the conventional wisdom is that it is better to rent.  At 18/19 you may not be settled enough to lock yourself into a long term commitment.  What if your life doesn't pan out the way you expected?  What if you need to move?  If you rent, you can walk away with limited losses, but if you buy and things don't pan out, it has the ability to really destroy your life.  

Divorce is expensive.  A bad marriage is hell.  Breaking up with your boyfriend/girlfriend sucks, but the devastation generally does not permeate into all facets of your life like a divorce does.  

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that people shouldn't rush into major commitments like marriage and mortgages and children.  That you should encourage young people to take those things seriously or slowly. Because major commitments like that DO change your life, are MUCH harder to walk away from, and may take away opportunities you otherwise would have had.  And you can really never fully go back from them.   

[SapphireSlytherin]

I had GryffindorDisappointmentChild when I was 23. When I was 41, she was out of my house and I was still young enough to DO things!

OTOH, a friend just fathered a baby last year. He is 54... This is his fifth child... He'll be 72 when that baby graduates from high school. His oldest child is 20. Ay yi yi yi yi.

[Elvis Presby]

4 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

Aw, thanks. I used to work nights in an ICU. I had to learn how to do many treatments because the RT weren't on at night... Thank Heaven that rule changed! You all count among my favorite people, too!!

When my soon to be 15 year old was 2 days past his OHS and began to have "episodes" the RT came in and saved him at least 3 times that night.  The last one was the worst.  They were jerking him crossways on the bed and "bagging" him.  As they were shoving me away I looked at him for what I thought would be the last time to see him alive.  He was literally black and blue.  

[TeamDefraudinSquad]

 

@Swamptribe  I can agree that getting married young doesn't have to spell an end to having fun. In my case, I don't think the partying I did in my early to mid 20's would have been nearly as much fun without my husband (then fiance) around to stumble out of bars with me. 

Having said that though, context is important in this case, because Joy and Austin are fundies, so marriage comes with all of these added responsibilities, like mandatory procreating and strict jinder roles. When I was 21 and living with my husband, I had power and footing in my marriage that Joy will never have in her marriage to Austin. I had a college degree, was financially independent from my parents, and had the option to delay procreating by using birth control without Mr. Defraudinsquad's permission. I can only speak for myself, but I am not sure I would be as sad about Joy getting married at 19 if she had married someone like Jeremy who would allow her to have more freedom (relatively speaking) than how she was raised, but as it is, I am sad for Joy, because she didn't just choose to get married at 19, she chose to surrender her power, too. 

[EmmieJ]

1 hour ago, Swamptribe said:

I find the attitude expressed by so many on this board, that somehow, getting married is the end of 'fun' or experience in life, a bit disturbing.   (and yes, I know the Duggars are kind of a weird situation).  Getting married young (or at all) doesn't mean you are settling.  Married people can still go on to get a higher education.  They can still travel and have great life experiences. You can still experience life in all it's glory. What it very much means is that you have chosen a proverbial partner in crime to share all those exciting things with. To share your future with.  You take the journey together.

I would agree that no one way is the right way for everyone.  All I can point to is my own example, which applies to exactly one person - me.  I met a very nice young man when I was 17 and he was 19.  We began dating, we fell in love, and we planned to get married.  Two years went by and I had been out of high school for two years, but no marriage.  Felt like my life was going nowhere, so I moved out of the house and down to southern California.  Didn't break up with my b/f, didn't want to -- but I wanted to experience more out of life.  He begged me to return home, and wanted to get married.  I returned home, then he backed off the marriage talk.  Turns out that was a good thing, because after another year, I decided I wanted to go to college after all.  With the full support of my parents, I applied several places, got accepted, and geared up to leave for my first year of college.  My b/f said "If you go, that means we are broken up."  I said, "you said it, so okay." 

We broke up, I went to college, I had a great time making new friends and coming out of my natural shyness shell.  I never looked back nor regretted ending that relationship - although he was not a bad guy, just already locked in his ways at a young age.

So while it's not necessarily a bad thing to get married young, it's also a time when a lot of people can change quite a bit as they mature and grow up.  If I had married that boyfriend, I believe I would have ultimately been unhappy, probably would have divorced him, and wouldn't have had the college degree or the amount of really great times I had in my early 20's as a single young woman. 

I worked in a small office for awhile while in college, and one of the other people was a woman my age (21, 22) who was married to a college student.  She was helping put him through school.  Their one monthly splurge was a take n bake pizza and a liter of Coke.  I didn't understand why they were in such a hurry to get married.  Why not just continue dating, perhaps get some financial help from their parents and via student loans, and have a bit more fun while at college?  I still don't get it.  You've got your whole life to be married, to have those responsibilities - but you only get one time in your life to be in your young 20's, relatively carefree, probably in your best physical shape, to explore the world and all sorts of people in it.

[JesSky03]

23 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

 

So while it's not necessarily a bad thing to get married young, it's also a time when a lot of people can change quite a bit as they mature and grow up.  If I had married that boyfriend, I believe I would have ultimately been unhappy, probably would have divorced him, and wouldn't have had the college degree or the amount of really great times I had in my early 20's as a single young woman. 

I worked in a small office for awhile while in college, and one of the other people was a woman my age (21, 22) who was married to a college student.  She was helping put him through school.  Their one monthly splurge was a take n bake pizza and a liter of Coke.  I didn't understand why they were in such a hurry to get married.  Why not just continue dating, perhaps get some financial help from their parents and via student loans, and have a bit more fun while at college?  I still don't get it.  You've got your whole life to be married, to have those responsibilities - but you only get one time in your life to be in your young 20's, relatively carefree, probably in your best physical shape, to explore the world and all sorts of people in it.

I think the important thing to keep in mind, is that not every young teenager/20something year old wants or needs those experiences. Going away to a 4 year+ college was never in my plans. Drinking and partying- not me. Traveling the world and meeting new people- introvert here- also not me. I don't think I would be in a different place from where I am now even if I hadn't married my husband at 20 years old. I would probably have saved a bit more money had I lived on my own but we get by just fine. I earned my 2nd degree after we were married and my husband is currently working towards his first. He had no idea what he wanted to do for a career and it has taken him a few years to figure it out thanks  to him taking classes and working different jobs and figuring out what it is he likes to do. He really struggled in high school and possibly never would have thought he could go to college without my helpful nudges. I think he would be stuck working in some dead end retail job if we hadn't gotten married. The responsibility that came with marriage was good for him and his growth as a person over the last 6 years is incredible. It certainly has not always been easy- marriage is hard work- but neither of us regret getting married when we did and do not feel like we missed out on any important experiences. 

[VelociRapture]

I'm just going to throw this out there so we can maybe avoid another young marriage debate:

- Every person is unique and no one choice is right for everyone.

- Some couples do very well marrying young. Others don't. It depends on the specific couple and their specific situation.

- This specific Fundie lifestyle (IBLP) can make marriage, in general, a bit risky because the option for divorce or separation is pretty much removed. So these young Fundies are rushing into a massive commitment they may not be ready for with someone they may not know as well as they think.

(This last one is the important one to remember when people discuss JoStin or another IBLP couple.)

[socalrules]

I think there is a difference between a 19 year-old who has graduated from high school, dated (not courted) someone for a few years, maybe had a job or college credit, made adult decisions and gone to the store alone getting married, than Joy was not allowed a real education, not allowed to be alone with Austin prior to marriage, is treated as a child until marriage, not allowed to made an adult decision or even go to the store alone, actually getting married.  It's not the age so much as the experience of being an adult. It's the mindset. Joy has lived sheltered life where all decisions were made for her and she couldn't cross the road without an accountability buddy. She may have known Austin for years but that was completely within the confines a group and courtship. No alone time to hang out or go anywhere. Imagine not even being allowed to drive in a car alone with someone before you marry them. 

We can't compare a fundy 19 year old with that of someone with who lived a normal life. I will always put my money on Someone who live a normal life, at least they either know they have options or can try to figure it out. If Joy becomes unhappy, she is pretty much stuck because someone else chose her future.

They may look cute together but there are a lot of more mature people their age who look cute together, in love and yet should not yet be getting married. Joy and Austin seeming to like each other is no indication of whether they should have gotten married because they didn't have a relationship until they got married. Spending all your time together in groups or with a chaperone is not a good indicator of whether marriage is a good idea because it's not reality. Everyone is on their best behavior and you cannot even have intimate (non-sexual) time with each other because ther is always someone else there. No disputes or disagreements. No one will tell you their secret personal fears or thoughts because someone else is there. I think it's a problem for all courtships. 

[JesSky03]

8 minutes ago, socalrules said:

I think there is a difference between a 19 year-old who has graduated from high school, dated (not courted) someone for a few years, maybe had a job or college credit, made adult decisions and gone to the store alone getting married, than Joy was not allowed a real education, not allowed to be alone with Austin prior to marriage, is treated as a child until marriage, not allowed to made an adult decision or even go to the store alone, actually getting married.  It's not the age so much as the experience of being an adult. It's the mindset. Joy has lived sheltered life where all decisions were made for her and she couldn't cross the road without an accountability buddy. She may have known Austin for years but that was completely within the confines a group and courtship. No alone time to hang out or go anywhere. Imagine not even being allowed to drive in a car alone with someone before you marry them. 

We can't compare a fundy 19 year old with that of someone with who lived a normal life. I will always put my money on Someone who live a normal life, at least they either know they have options or can try to figure it out. If Joy becomes unhappy, she is pretty much stuck because someone else chose her future.

They may look cute together but there are a lot of more mature people their age who look cute together, in love and yet should not yet be getting married. Joy and Austin seeming to like each other is no indication of whether they should have gotten married because they didn't have a relationship until they got married. Spending all your time together in groups or with a chaperone is not a good indicator of whether marriage is a good idea because it's not reality. Everyone is on their best behavior and you cannot even have intimate (non-sexual) time with each other because ther is always someone else there. No disputes or disagreements. No one will tell you their secret personal fears or thoughts because someone else is there. I think it's a problem for all courtships. 

I think we all agree on everything you said- its just went people make comments about their own lives and how they can't imagine themselves or their children getting married at a younger age or say its insane to think you can be that young and choose a life partner, that the lines kind of blur. 

[EmmieJ]

37 minutes ago, JesSky03 said:

I think the important thing to keep in mind, is that not every young teenager/20something year old wants or needs those experiences. Going away to a 4 year+ college was never in my plans. Drinking and partying- not me. Traveling the world and meeting new people- introvert here- also not me.

I do keep that in mind.  My concern for children born into fundie families or to parents who want to control their entire lives, is that some young people aren't given the option to decide what is best for them.  Especially for the Duggars, it's like the only options are 1.  Get married young and start having babies; or 2.  Don't get married, but you also don't get to leave home and establish your own life as an adult.  

I'm for personal choice.  I got to choose the direction of my life.  Sounds like you got to choose the direction of your life.  We went in different directions, but both of us are happy that we got to make those choices.

[mydoggoskeeper]

We are talking about the Duggars here.   Sure, for most people getting married, especially for those people already living together, marriage does not mean a monumental change of lifestyle  or limited opportunities.  However, for the Duggars, with their professed prohibition on birth control, marriage means joyfully accepting and taking care of all the "blessings" that will follow.    

One of the Duggar daughters (Jessa?) even remarked how different it was taking care of her own child compared to being a childminder to her siblings.  

[JesSky03]

30 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

I do keep that in mind.  My concern for children born into fundie families or to parents who want to control their entire lives, is that some young people aren't given the option to decide what is best for them.  Especially for the Duggars, it's like the only options are 1.  Get married young and start having babies; or 2.  Don't get married, but you also don't get to leave home and establish your own life as an adult.  

I'm for personal choice.  I got to choose the direction of my life.  Sounds like you got to choose the direction of your life.  We went in different directions, but both of us are happy that we got to make those choices.

I guess I would just refer you back to my prior comment. I don't think anyone here who has married under age 25 thinks that their situation is the same as the Duggar women. Sometimes though it seems like some FJers are making sweeping generalizations for young people of all backgrounds and saying that no one should get married that young, that we all need to experience college, traveling, partying,dating several people, etc. Hence why we end up having these round and round discussions all kind of disagreeing while agreeing at the same time.

Also, I just re-read your original and realized you make a point to say that your situation only applies to you. Sorry if I made it seem like you were applying your situation to every other person that age. 

[VeganCupcake]

8 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I thought the bride and groom came to the reception, ate, cut the cake, and changed into their "going away clothes", then left amid a shower of rice, while the party raged on for several hours after.. as in, "Father of the Bride" type movies.

That sounds awful. If I'm paying to throw a huge dinner, I want to stay and enjoy it! The most "proper" and formal wedding I've been to was my cousin's, and she stayed until after midnight. She actually arrived late to the reception in order to make a grand entrance. I don't remember when she left but she stayed throughout dinner, speeches, dancing, etc. The party continued in the hotel rooms after we all left the reception.

Why exactly dud Joy and Austin rush off? I don't get the point of them inviting like 1000 of their closest friends/fans who are probably dying for the chance to meet them, and then barely sticking around. The people who attend Duggar weddings are such suckers lol. 

[xlurker]

20 hours ago, mtc3659 said:

I am a math teacher. This past year I taught Algebra 1 to high school freshmen. It was an awful experience. They would tell me they hated my class (and consequently me). Maybe next year will be better. 

My youngest xlurkerling LOVED her AP Calc teacher, she also had him for advanced algebra.  One of the most dis-liked and hardest teachers in the district and she would joke with him! For the record, she also "got it" and did well in his classes.   Hang in there--that student will show up eventually

[divadivine]

27 minutes ago, VeganCupcake said:

<snipped>Why exactly dud Joy and Austin rush off? I don't get the point of them inviting like 1000 of their closest friends/fans who are probably dying for the chance to meet them, and then barely sticking around. The people who attend Duggar weddings are such suckers lol. 

Two words....

Sweet

Fellowship

[justmy2cents]

I don't know if this applies to the Duggars but Kelly Bates has said that she encourages the newlyweds to leave the party early and to stay somewhere local the first night so that they have plenty of time to get comfortable being alone together for the first time, or what @divadivine said.

[Iamtheway]

I don't get why you would plan a huge party for all the people close to you and then leave early. We stayed last.

We had been together for six years though so we were not in a huge rush to see eachother naked. Been there. Done that. 

[nastyhobbitses]

Re young marriages: Yes, there are plenty of 19-year-olds who get married and do fine. They generally have gone to actual school, had actual life experiences, and are adults with the experience and knowledge to make the sorts of decisions you need to make as a married adult.

Joy, IMO, may have the body and chronological age of a 19-year-old, but if I didn't know her age -- just heard her talk and saw a "resume" of sorts -- I'd assume she was a sophomore in high school. Tops. She is a child bride as far as I'm concerned. She didn't have the time or experiences to figure out what she really wanted in life or forge an identity beyond the one her parents forced on her ("godly ladylike diligent whichever number you are") and the one TLC pushed for a while ("the tomboyish one").

The other thing is, Joy isn't going to just have her husband and then go off to get a degree or get a job or anything like that. She's going to make babies and look pretty for Fort Rock Family Camp promos, and keep living her Truman Show life because that's all she's ever known. Marriage just further entrenches her (at 19) in this cult. Unless Austin wants to break out or she really has a come-to-Jesus (come-away-from-Jesus?) moment that makes her split, she's stuck. Much more stuck than she ever was.

[sawasdee]

Back to the career thing.

My mother was a teacher for many years, and firmly believed that it should be forbidden to go straight from school to college - you should be in the workplace for a minimum of 2-3 years.

She felt many students just followed expectations, of themselves or their school or their family, in going to college. Some time in the real world would enable to see whether that was what they truly wanted, or whether a non college career path was better for them.

She also believed it would give them time to mature enough to maximise the benefits of college, and have a better idea of what they wanted from their future.

The older I get, the more I see her point. And in today's expensive educational climate, it would also allow for some pre college saving.

[BadMammaJana]

@Million Children For Jesus

I learned in college that teaching is not for me. At least in a traditional classroom setting in a grade school or college. It sounds odd, but I like sharing my knowledge of history and facts, but being a history teacher/ professor is not for me. 

I have given thought to grant writing, and at this point in my life (with very young children) I think it is something that sounds right up my alley. I will definitely look into it some more. I'm not sure that it would be my passion, but definitely something I could probably enjoy doing while trying to figure out if I do want to get my MA after all, and while I'm moving around with my family.

I did like the health field program that I was in, it was just the math that scared me off. I kept failing the basic math classes, and cried because to my family, because, well, it's emotionally tough accepting failure. My sister straight out told me I was too dumb and it was my fault for choosing that program. My mom also couldn't understand why I couldn't just choose something fast and easy, not because she's lazy, but I think it was because I think it just hurt her to see me struggle. So those comments and everything else just killed my drive and I chose the easy route- history. Looking back, I should've gone to my instructors for support because it was a program aimed at minorities, and sometimes we don't get emotional support at home for a multitude of reasons. But, I guess that could've just been my really blunt sign to pursue history, because luckily I love that as well. I would've chosen to focus on nutrition, and work in underserved communities. Like create programs on how to make better food choices, maybe teach how to budget better for groceries, create food prepping guides/options for specific minority communities. I could even see myself teaching a class about health/nutrition, but for some reason, not history. 

You're right, I didn't mention what I did in the museum. I spent a lot of time in guest services so, working on the floor with guests, I was a tour guide, and did private event presentations for VIP members. I eventually assisted the registrar and worked more with collections, like assisting with paperwork for acquisitions, research, and artifact maintenance. I love research and writing, which is a good thing because majoring in history requires a LOT of it. 

Thank you for your input and suggestions! 

[HarryPotterFan]

@sawasdee One of my friends took time off from college and worked. She took the time to assess her interests and what major would lead her to a rewarding career she liked. She got to come back with a new perspective and maturity.

[Shadoewolf]

Oldest Wolfie kid is a senior this year (and proud mommy moment she made varsity cheer!) She'll still be 17 for a month after she graduates. We've already told her that after graduation she has 3 choices after she gets back from Paris... go to college full time, work full time, or half of each. But no lazing around the house and stuff.  We felt that was fair, and infuses some responsibility into her world.

[BlessaYourHeart]

I honestly don't see the big deal about 19-early 20 year olds getting married. Yes I can see the issue in Duggarville because of the beliefs and restricted freedom. However, in the wider world I don't see the problem in two adults making a choice. 

I'll be 22 soon and I've been with the same guy since this day 5 years ago and I couldn't imagine my life without him. We are engaged and we will get married in 2 years or so. I'm currently moving into the 4th year of my degree and if it was financially valuable I'd marry him right now. (He's 25 and in a decent job but I rely on student loans and my mum feeding and housing me ). If I did marry him right now I'd still finish my degree and still do my masters and still follow the path I want to take. 

I want to travel the world and marriage won't stop me. He'll just come to whenever we get the chance to hop on a plane and go. 

I'll get married at around 24 and it won't change anything about my life other than I'll have made a life long commitment to the man I love. And in all the things that I'll do in life I'll have someone to enjoy it with me or to cry on when things go wrong. 

Being 'tied down' young isn't for everyone but that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing for some people. 

[Snarkylark]

23 hours ago, Daisy0322 said:

@Four is Enough  you just made me so happy! So many people don't know what we do and just think we are breathing treatment jockies. You're my favorite person right now 

I love RTs! I can't do phlegm, suctioning, trachs, etc! 

I married at Joy's age and wanted to be a mom. Had my children, was a SAHM and then went to school for Nursing. Glad I didn't go to college straight out of HS because it would be a wasted degree.