Joy and Austin: Switzerland to the Backwoods of Arkansas

[Tangy Bee]

4 hours ago, socalrules said:

I think there is a difference between a 19 year-old who has graduated from high school, dated (not courted) someone for a few years, maybe had a job or college credit, made adult decisions and gone to the store alone getting married, than Joy was not allowed a real education, not allowed to be alone with Austin prior to marriage, is treated as a child until marriage, not allowed to made an adult decision or even go to the store alone, actually getting married.  It's not the age so much as the experience of being an adult. It's the mindset. Joy has lived sheltered life where all decisions were made for her and she couldn't cross the road without an accountability buddy. She may have known Austin for years but that was completely within the confines a group and courtship. No alone time to hang out or go anywhere. Imagine not even being allowed to drive in a car alone with someone before you marry them. 

We can't compare a fundy 19 year old with that of someone with who lived a normal life. I will always put my money on Someone who live a normal life, at least they either know they have options or can try to figure it out. If Joy becomes unhappy, she is pretty much stuck because someone else chose her future.

They may look cute together but there are a lot of more mature people their age who look cute together, in love and yet should not yet be getting married. Joy and Austin seeming to like each other is no indication of whether they should have gotten married because they didn't have a relationship until they got married. Spending all your time together in groups or with a chaperone is not a good indicator of whether marriage is a good idea because it's not reality. Everyone is on their best behavior and you cannot even have intimate (non-sexual) time with each other because ther is always someone else there. No disputes or disagreements. No one will tell you their secret personal fears or thoughts because someone else is there. I think it's a problem for all courtships. 

Hands clapping over here. Wish we all had proof that they actually have deep thoughts about their lives. To be honest it can go on forever. What if Ben was not allowed to watch tv at all. Would he have known about Jessa? If Josh had not molested his sisters, do u think he would have married early? Suppose Michelle's dad had said "hell no" to her getting married at 17? Just wondering.

[BadMammaJana]

@FundieCentral I'm sorry you feel that way too. Pressure definitely sucks, especially when parents want to live vicariously through you, which I see with my father in-law and my husband. Its an odd relationship with my family though. They didn't pressure me, and at times discouraged me with school. I also grew up in a low income area where most of us didn't get high school diplomas, let alone college degrees. I also wanted to sort of be an example for my younger relatives to work hard and go to college. So you can imagine how I felt after completing college, and then becoming a SAHM. I felt like I just proved them right about college not being that important. I hope that I can find a perfect balance with my kids about their futures: give them enough push that they feel confident with whatever, but not cause unnecessary guilt or pressure if life happens and their goals change. And you are absolutely correct, it is not lowly to be a SAHM/W. It is so much work, with almost no recognition. I hope that you get to do it if you feel that its your calling, and I hope that your family can support your decision. 

I can definitely do so with museums. There are a couple close by, and I finally feel confident enough to be away from the youngest baby. My 2 year old is not as attached at the hip to me and is used to being dropped off if I have interviews or something. My 1 year old is not having as hard of a time when I'm away at the doctor or something anymore. I wanted to get a degree in nutrition, and I'm sure there are some sort of volunteer opportunities for that too. I need to get out the house and just do some stuff for myself. I love my babies, but I need a break from them sometimes, and interaction with other adults without children around. 

I did work at a children's museum once. It was EXHAUSTING, lol. I am excited to teach my kids about historical events though. I would love to do a history based musical. Lin Manuel Miranda beat me to it, haha. I'm glad that he made history cool and fun because so many people get the wrong idea about it and think its so dry and boring. 

[HurricaneBells]

3 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

The other thing is, Joy isn't going to just have her husband and then go off to get a degree or get a job or anything like that. She's going to make babies and look pretty for Fort Rock Family Camp promos, and keep living her Truman Show life because that's all she's ever known. Marriage just further entrenches her (at 19) in this cult. Unless Austin wants to break out or she really has a come-to-Jesus (come-away-from-Jesus?) moment that makes her split, she's stuck. Much more stuck than she ever was.

Out of curiosity... now that they are married, if Austin one day decided the faith was not for him and that he wanted out - is Joy expected to be an obedient wife and follow him still or does she then have the option of going home to her parents or another option? They seem to be all about putting up with whatever life gives you (as wives) and obeying your headship at all times but what if its the one thing your parents would never want you to obey? Basically what if just one spouse wants to go? Especially in these marriages where i believe y'all have talked of it being a particular type that is even more unlikely to result in divorce. I worry one day that will happen to Anna.... all that she has put up with, i can see Josh taking the out some day

[subsaharanafrica]

16 hours ago, Iokaste said:

You're right, "normal" is the wrong word to use, so maybe a better question is: did it strike you as odd, or was it within expectations of what a wedding might be like to Americans?  

I've been to weddings with church basement receptions and even a wedding where the bride and groom met while working at an IBLP training center and had their first kiss at the altar. The amount and type of food served is generally dictated by the time of day. It's hard to say what is normal because everything varies by region and the specific religious tendencies of the people getting married.

One thing that is near universal in my experience: if there is no alcohol and no dancing at a reception it doesn't last very long at all. People eat and then go. The IBLP reception lasted 30 minutes max and they had a full spread of food. 

[MadeItOut]

On 6/19/2017 at 0:51 PM, VelociRapture said:

I'm just going to throw this out there so we can maybe avoid another young marriage debate:

- Every person is unique and no one choice is right for everyone.

- Some couples do very well marrying young. Others don't. It depends on the specific couple and their specific situation.

We could also have in mind that there's not the 'this is a colossal honour/opportunity for you' angle that these kids get, there's also the colour of 'you are a very lucky girl - this man sees you, knows you, yet went to God to check he's the one to steer you through'. Certainly with the community I married into, nobody gave a damn what the girls wanted - they would 'date' (mostly Bible study, or occasionally dinner with parents) long enough for her to learn her duties if possible, though not a deal breaker - in my case it was a week after we married when MIL laughed in my face at the ideas of giving me permission to go out for pencils, and informed me the uni had been contacted and my place rejected. This was three days before I was due to start (midwifery oddly enough - only course with a creche place left).

Oh my word, you guys have me second guessing our wedding meal now! I hope it'll be okay... We have a mixed bunch - veggies, gluten free, diabetic, allergies etc, so we're doing loads of salads, then meat cheese etc for those who want to add it in. Once we get into the evening, we're adding jacket potatoes and various toppings. Desserts include dairy free homemade icecream, and 'wedding' cakes - 3/4 8" rounds in flavours folks like. For the bar, we're doing 1/4 each of wines, beers, no-alcs, kid-friendly juice/soda etc.

[Million Children For Jesus]

1 hour ago, MadeItOut said:

Once we get into the evening, we're adding jacket potatoes and various toppings. Desserts include dairy free homemade icecream,

Oh, heck YES! Did you ever see the show, "Cuckoo," with Andy Samberg?

What is this?

It's a jacket potato.

JA-QUETTE   POE-TAY-TOE   Well, it's fucking delicious. 

You had me at jacket potato, but I'm also dairy free, so homemade dairy free ice cream sounds fantastic. Your wedding meal sounds lovely. I would be totally obnoxious and say JA-QUETTE POE-TAY-TOE all night long, and laugh every time. That scene slayed me, and potatoes will always be fun from now on. 

[FundieCentral]

@MadeItOut: sounds delicious. I haven't eaten breakfast yet, so I'd kill for jacket potatoes and ice-cream. 

@BadMammaJana: yes, I understand. Even though I'm personally not in the position of being "the first one" to go to college and having younger siblings to set an example to, that can be a pretty strong motivator I imagine. But sounds like you are a great mom! And given that you're very young, just imagine how much tien you have left in whatever career you choose. 35-40 years probably. And between Nutrition and possibly museum education sounds like you have two great options to research, maybe try out, speak with some people in those fields, and make a choice. Also history musical sounds awesome. Hey, if there's a musical group or community theatre or something, I'm sure they'd love on take you on :)) good luck! 

[moreorlessnu]

Did Joy have 1 hairstyle (hair pulled back to 1 side, no braid) when asking Austin about the veil (he did mention something about a braid), a different hair style when taking pictures (hair down, no longer pulled back), and yet a third hair style (pulled back with a small loose braid)  when she walked down the aisle?

Although there was a little bit of fuss about the kiss, there was no declaration that this was their first kiss. Kudos to Joy for having the comedic timing to clear her throat instead of rushing in for the kiss. I thought that was pretty mature of her.

Interesting how Jessa (or someone else) said something to the effect of, "2 years ago, we would have never seen this coming" when talking about Joy and Austin being interested in each other.

[BobTheWalrus]

On 15/06/2017 at 1:04 PM, eveandadam said:

 why go as far as Switzerland when you can have the same scenery in the Rocky mountains?

Chocolate. Swiss chocolate is everything.

[SapphireSlytherin]

   On 6/15/2017 at 7:04 AM,  eveandadam said: 

 why go as far as Switzerland when you can have the same scenery in the Rocky mountains?

 

It's not the same. At all.

[nvmbr02]

17 hours ago, Swamptribe said:

I find the attitude expressed by so many on this board, that somehow, getting married is the end of 'fun' or experience in life, a bit disturbing.   (and yes, I know the Duggars are kind of a weird situation).  Getting married young (or at all) doesn't mean you are settling.  Married people can still go on to get a higher education.  They can still travel and have great life experiences. You can still experience life in all it's glory. What it very much means is that you have chosen a proverbial partner in crime to share all those exciting things with. To share your future with.  You take the journey together.

Insisting that someone should 'shop around' or get their degree and have a life, before they get married is just as judgemental and small minded as the Duggars courting/marriage mindset is. 

So much this! We married fairly young, I was 21 and he was 23. We had our first baby 2 months after our first anniversary, the second 2 years after that and the third 3 years later. Yet, we also both went to college and my husband completed his masters several years ago. We have traveled to 14 countries and 28 states since we married 15 years ago. When my husband hits his early retirement age for his job our youngest will be 20 and hopefully settled in college somewhere. We have loved having our family but we are also looking forward to having some time to ourselves while we are still fairly young.

As for wedding receptions... we left ours at around 10pm. We had a 2 pm wedding with a 4pm cocktail hour and dinner started at 6. It is my understanding that the reception went until they were booted out of the hall at 2am and then most of the family ended up at my aunts house for an after party. I'm fairly certain that the party was still going on when we left for the airport at around 4am, haha!

[VelociRapture]

@MadeItOutAll you really need to worry about with your guests is letting them know what to expect. That way your guests can plan ahead if, for example, only light refreshments will be served during a 4:00 wedding. What you're planning sounds perfectly acceptable and lovely, especially because of all the dietary restrictions you're facing.

And I saw some posters at some point ask why they left the reception early - it's entirely possible JoStin left early because they needed to do photos. I highly doubt those beautiful photos of them in a field were taken prior to the ceremony. They may have needed to leave a bit on the early side in order to catch the natural light.

(We also don't know what they meant when Joy said they couldn't stay long. It's possible that meant 30 minutes or it could have meant two or more hours.)

[Lurky]

It used to be common in the USA and UK for the couple to leave the reception/party before the guests did, I'm guessing because they went straight on honeymoon, with fewer travel options.

So there are tons of books and films where they start in the reception, the bride changes into a "going away" suit (or doesn't) and they leave for the honeymoon in the car with "just married" on the back, cans tied to the bumper etc etc, and the guests carry on partying, or they leave surreptitiously though the backdoor, trying to avoid a big farewell. 

I'm also guessing this ties in with the traditional idea that the parents of the bride are throwing the party, not the couple. 

(Of course, talking about "tradition" in weddings is impossible, as they're so culturally/geographically/class specific - down to really small groups.  Even things we take for granted, like the bride in a white dress, is a Victorian invention, and didn't become the norm, in the UK until the 1950s - even having a specific wedding dress, rather than a dress the bride can re-purpose is REALLY recent.)

 

[Carm_88]

Brides and grooms are often some of the last to leave here and we tend to party until 2-3am. So all this talk of cutting out early, is odd to me. 

[louisa05]

13 hours ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

I'll be 22 soon and I've been with the same guy since this day 5 years ago and I couldn't imagine my life without him. We are engaged and we will get married in 2 years or so. I'm currently moving into the 4th year of my degree and if it was financially valuable I'd marry him right now. (He's 25 and in a decent job but I rely on student loans and my mum feeding and housing me ). 

If you marry in 2 years, you'll be 24 and 27. I actually don't consider that too young. Add in completed degrees and jobs and having been together long enough to know that this is who you want to be with...I think your life is not what anyone is talking about in regard to being a bit too young. 

If I had married at 19 or even 22, I would have married some slightly patriarchal evangelical asshole. And my life would have been miserable. If I had finished my degree, I would have been following said evangelical asshole to wherever he had a job and may not have been able to find my own job. Not too mention being sentenced to a life in evangelicalism, something I saw the errors of by 25 or so. 

People can change a lot between their late teens and mid-20s (and 24 and 27 is mid and late 20s). I knew a lot of couples in college that seemed destined to marry and within 6 months to a year after graduation split up--I know of two broken engagements that came in that time frame. And I know couples who married during or just out of college that are divorced. More than who stayed together to be brutally honest with you. 

[Antipatriarch]

9 hours ago, HurricaneBells said:

Out of curiosity... now that they are married, if Austin one day decided the faith was not for him and that he wanted out - is Joy expected to be an obedient wife and follow him still or does she then have the option of going home to her parents or another option? They seem to be all about putting up with whatever life gives you (as wives) and obeying your headship at all times but what if its the one thing your parents would never want you to obey?

She would not be expected to follow him into apostasy, if that's what you mean. But neither would she be able to divorce him if he wants to stay married. Conservative Christian patriarchy/complementarian/etc. women in this situation are forced to walk a narrow road: They still have to submit to their headship in everything they can, everything that isn't "sin" -- but they're expected to refuse to do anything that would violate their Christian conscience. "I'm sorry honey, I love you so much, I want to follow your leadership, but I can't do ____ that you asked me to, because God forbids it." Bleah!

[Four is Enough]

I'm kind of bummed that people seem to expect a free bar at a wedding reception regardless. My husband and I do not drink often at all. If we do, we joke that "one wine cooler (which we split) is enough!"

Our wedding reception was a sit down luncheon at a lovely restaurant. Virtually everyone but us and a friend or two was a minimum 90 minute drive away. We did not serve any alcohol except the champagne for the toast. The restaurant had a bar, and if someone wanted a drink, they could purchase their own. I didn't even mention it because DRIVING... trauma nurses don't like to add alcohol when people have to drive.

If that was tacky and rude, so be it. I was more concerned about my family and friends' safety than I was about their "need" for alcohol.

I just don't get why people feel it's rude to have a cash bar. Alcohol is expensive. I'd rather provide a good meal than alcohol. Many people, I assume, cannot do both.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

10 hours ago, HurricaneBells said:

Out of curiosity... now that they are married, if Austin one day decided the faith was not for him and that he wanted out - is Joy expected to be an obedient wife and follow him still or does she then have the option of going home to her parents or another option? 

Divorce is pretty much a no go, unless he turned out to be a mass murdering rapist, I'm pretty sure she's expected to stay.  I'm not sure how the him leaving the faith, do you mean going full on atheist or just not subscribing to the Gothardite bull shit?   I know several women who's husbands were not religious and they stayed married but prayed the husband would come around.  

I also think it would depend on if Austin said Joy couldn't do what she wanted, if he wanted nothing to do with it but allowed her or didn't care what she believed, I don't see a problem with it. 

I think a better question would be if Joy decided this whole thing was BS would HE allow her or would he be allowed to leave? Or would they just each do their own thing faith wise? 

[Jessie E]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

Brides and grooms are often some of the last to leave here and we tend to party until 2-3am. So all this talk of cutting out early, is odd to me. 

Same here! I live in Eastern Canada and here it is considered rude to leave your reception early.  I am getting married in September and my fiance and I were talking about this yesterday.  Earliest we will be leaving will be 2am. 

[Carm_88]

1 minute ago, Jessie E said:

Same here! I live in Eastern Canada and here it is considered rude to leave your reception early.  I am getting married in September and my fiance and I were talking about this yesterday.  Earliest we will be leaving that night will be 2am. 

Same!  Perhaps we just like to party! 

[SuhrEnity]

28 minutes ago, Jessie E said:

Same here! I live in Eastern Canada and here it is considered rude to leave your reception early.  I am getting married in September and my fiance and I were talking about this yesterday.  Earliest we will be leaving will be 2am. 

I'm in Toronto and of all the weddings I've been to I've never seen the bride and groom leave early.

[louisa05]

54 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

Our wedding reception was a sit down luncheon at a lovely restaurant. Virtually everyone but us and a friend or two was a minimum 90 minute drive away. We did not serve any alcohol except the champagne for the toast. T

I just don't get why people feel it's rude to have a cash bar. Alcohol is expensive. I'd rather provide a good meal than alcohol. Many people, I assume, cannot do both.

We had a buffet dinner. We provided one keg of beer and brandy shots (the latter being a family tradition for my husband's family/the entire immigrant group in the area his family is from). We also provided champagne for the wedding party and family. My father-in-law paid for other drinks for the immediate families and the wedding party. If you were not family or in the wedding party and did not want the free beer, there was a cash bar for other drinks. 

No one seemed offended. I actually have only been to one wedding in my adult life where it was not a cash bar--and the drink selection was bad. Busch light and some liquor they were mixing with various store brand sodas. We would have gladly paid for something better. Some have provided certain drinks for free--wine or a keg of beer in most cases and if you wanted something else, you could buy it. A couple provided no free alcoholic drinks at all. (And I've done some fundagelical church fellowship hall cake - mints- nasty punch receptions where you'd get thrown out for thinking about alcohol, of course). I don't think that a totally free bar is really a thing around here or anyone expects it. 

One wedding I was in provided nothing but water. You even had to pay for tea or soda. That was pretty tacky. Even more tacky was when they came around before the toasts asking the bridal party to pay for a glass of champagne for it. And the bride had freaked out that if we brought our purses into the reception, they would not match each other (every damn thing had to match in that wedding--the married bridesmaid had to remove her wedding ring since the three single bridesmaids did not have rings), and demanded that we leave them in the hotel. So the three of us who were single did not have any cash to pay for champagne for the toast. We had to toast with water. 

[VineHeart137]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

I just don't get why people feel it's rude to have a cash bar. Alcohol is expensive. I'd rather provide a good meal than alcohol. Many people, I assume, cannot do both.

I don't drink so I personally don't care either way, but when I was planning my wedding I frequented a lot of wedding forums and this subject came up often. The consensus was always open bar, limited alcohol, or no alcohol = acceptable. Cash bar = "rude", "tacky", etc. The reasoning was that guests should not need to pay for anything at someone else's party, and if you wouldn't charge people for beer or whatever if you were having a party at your house, then you shouldn't do it at a wedding. Now, I will say, the people on those forums were huge sticklers for "proper etiquette" (If I had a dollar for every time I saw people lamenting about receiving a wedding invite that *gasp* included registry information! The shame!) and I'm guessing depending on your region and social circle, expectations will vary a lot.

[The Wanderer]

I know a lot of people who had barbecue at their weddings (including a cousin of mine who got married this past weekend). I feel like it's a very southern thing, but no one complains about the food and you don't leave hungry.

As for myself, my wedding will feature food chosen by my very picky boyfriend if 2.5 years. I know by now that if I'm in charge, he may not want to eat at his own wedding.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

One wedding I was in provided nothing but water. You even had to pay for tea or soda. That was pretty tacky. Even more tacky was when they came around before the toasts asking the bridal party to pay for a glass of champagne for it. And the bride had freaked out that if we brought our purses into the reception, they would not match each other (every damn thing had to match in that wedding--the married bridesmaid had to remove her wedding ring since the three single bridesmaids did not have rings), and demanded that we leave them in the hotel. So the three of us who were single did not have any cash to pay for champagne for the toast. We had to toast with water. 

That is beyond tacky, I've heard of wedding where everything was "for a fee" my parents went to one, and got more and more annoyed wound up leaving the reception during dinner and took their gift home with them.  It wasn't like the parents couldn't afford a lavish wedding, they could, they were just too cheap to pay for one. 

I was in a wedding where the bride demanded we all be matchy mathcy down to her wanting me to cut my hair to match the others who had shorter her. That lead to a big fight were I called her out on her bullshit bridezilla ways, her mom and sister got involved and we all had a come to Jesus with her and she finally relented that she was being a little psycho. The reception didn't have booze (only 2 members of the wedding party were over 21 and neither of those two were the bride or groom), but everything was free, water, tea, soda and it was a blast.  My friends parents were dirt ass poor the whole wedding cost $5k which she split the cost with her parents. So no booze was to be expected, they just couldn't afford it.