Whitney and Zach Bates - Part 3

[Jane M.]

Love this couple. They look genuinely happy. 

Erin and Chad too. 

[front hugs > duggs]

14 hours ago, jacduggar said:

I also believe John and Alyssa are bordering on conservative Christians. I've said before that I think Alyssa will send her daughters to an actual school, where they can cheer and be on a dance team, because I really think she wishes she could have done that. Also that they seem to have a lot of non-fundie friends down there in Florida.

Bold is mine. Alyssa stated publically that she plans on homeschooling her children. This was on both her instagram as a story as well as the Bringing up Bates Facebook live feed before an episode this season. Of course she could change her mind, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting.  

[lumpentheologie]

12 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

The vast majority of fundies do no have strict dress codes, strict gender roles, believe in courtship, forbid birth control, are not quiverful, and don't homeschool. The Bates, Duggars, and their kind represent only a fraction of the fundie population. All fundies do share some core beliefs just not those.

What beliefs do you consider make someone fundy, then? If it's just thinking men should be the heads of the household, abortion should be illegal, gays are bad, social programs are a waste of money, and if you don't have the right kind of personal relationship with Jesus you're going to hell -- well, to me that describes conservative Protestant Christians, not fundies. Hell, for the first 4 you don't even have to be religious, just conservative. 

The only other thing I can think of that might mark fundies from conservative Evangelicals is that they want to live in a theocracy, but there's probably a spectrum with that too. 

[nokidsmom]

14 hours ago, jacduggar said:

I've said before that I think Alyssa will send her daughters to an actual school, where they can cheer and be on a dance team, because I really think she wishes she could have done that. Also that they seem to have a lot of non-fundie friends down there in Florida. 

I agree, I can see Alyssa sending Allie and Lexi to school so they can have opportunities she didn't.   Having non fundie friends has probably given Alyssa a chance to see that there's good people outside of the cult.  Perhaps she knew that already because of her flower shop job where (I assume) she interacted with the public therefore meeting all kinds of people, but having friends allows her to see it on a deeper level.

 

14 hours ago, jacduggar said:

Only time will tell but I suspect some of the Bates will be quite different when those cameras stop rolling. 

Oh definitely.  I think a number of them are simply towing the line right now for the show and in the case of the kids still at home, for Gil and Kelly.   With 19 kids, I think there's going to be a wide range of how different each one will ultimately become after the show ends and they leave the family home.   I can totally see Cherin and Brandon/Michael continue to tow the line, however Zach/Whitney, Alyssa/John seem to to be well on their way to living their own lives on their own terms.  

[Irene]

10 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

 

 

I can totally see Cherin 

Who is Cherin?

[lumpentheologie]

1 minute ago, Irene said:

Who is Cherin?

Chad and Erin

[VineHeart137]

Chad + Erin = Cherin.

[Irene]

Just now, lumpentheologie said:

Chad and Erin

Thanks new here, and is a lot of nicknames to follow

[LillyP]

RE: Clothing

Even though she's been posting herself in pants for a while, I love that Whitney being even more open about posting without thinking so much about her outfit being "modest". The swimsuit, pants, off the shoulder and shorter dresses....she looks great! I also think she and Zach will probably have no more than 4 kids. I think with Whit's non-fundy upbringing and Zach working as a cop (aka: access to the real world) they are seeing that there are better ways to live. I think they will still be conservative Christians, but I can see them not being fundy.

Both the Duggar & Bates families have gotten more lax - think back to when we were first introduced to them and they wore insanely frumpy prairie dresses and frizzy hair. That was the definition of modest and made sure to show no shape at all. As they've gained popularity they've definitely moved into mainstream clothing/hair but still kept the skirts. I think the biggest reason they haven't kicked the dresses isn't because they are against pants still, but rather because they both made such a big deal out of women wears skirts for modesty. I could honestly see them allowing the girls to wear pants if it weren't for the fact they built their foundation on "being modest" and that means skirts for girls.

 

[RosyDaisy]

What beliefs do you consider make someone fundy, then?

Patriarchy (strict gender roles not required for this), wanting a theocracy, actively stripping others of their rights, and the fucked up way they do missions. Those are the core beliefs of fundies. The more I learn, the less I believe in fundie-lite.

[jacduggar]

21 hours ago, JesusCampSongs said:

Unlike the other Bates spouses (and spouses-to-be), Whitney is from eastern Tennessee and wasn't raised fundie, so she probably has her own social circle outside of the family. 

Someone pointed out that Tori's courtship partner/fiance/wtfever is moving to TN instead of her moving to Florida, and speculated that this may be because the Bates don't want additional kids following Alyssa's example. 

Mild Instagram stalking appears to show she has some LEO wives for friends, too. My sister's husband is an officer and fire/police wives tend to have their own little "community". 

[LillyP]

15 hours ago, jacduggar said:

Mild Instagram stalking appears to show she has some LEO wives for friends, too. My sister's husband is an officer and fire/police wives tend to have their own little "community". 

Yes! Very much so! I would be willing to bet Whit has gotten herself a group of mainstream LEO wives for friends. Which is basically the gateway to having a glass of wine at dinner and dancing...haha!

[Marly]

About the clothing, I would definitely consider women wearing skirts/dresses only as a fundy characteristic. However, this is based off of the skirt/pants custom from Dutch fundies I know, who don’t wear dresses/skirts for modesty reasons, but because they believe the Bible says women can’t wear men’s clothes and vice versa. Hence, the skirts/pants is tied in with strict gender divisions and rules. (A lot of younger fundy girls and women here do wear spaghetti strap tops during the summer, for instance, but never pants.)
Based on this, my initial reaction would be that Z&W aren’t as fundy (anymore) as their parents are.
Yet, the fact that they say skirts are for modesty and not because of the ‘no men’s clothes’ rule, makes it a bit more difficult to assert their ‘fundiness’ based on whether or not they wear skirts. Pants can be very modest as well. I mean, some skirts don’t cover your knees, whereas a long pair of jeans does do that. Additionally, you can wear more baggy or loose fitting jeans, so that your shape isn’t that accentuated if that would be a modesty issue.
Considering this, I think it would be possible that they just wear pants to create a more positive image of what very religious people can look like.
However, in my opinion, the bikini and the bikini cover dress are very, very, very progressive considering their background. And honestly, I don’t think Jessa or Jill Duggar would ever wear something like that just to help create a more positive image of fundy women. So the bikini kind of makes me think that in Whitney and Zach’s case is doesn’t really have to do with creating a certain ‘progressive fundy imago’, but more that they really have loosened up a bit with regards to clothing regulations. And for them that would have to be a conscious decision, which, in my eyes, makes them a little less fundy than their parents.

[Carm_88]

21 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

Patriarchy (strict gender roles not required for this), wanting a theocracy, actively stripping others of their rights, and the fucked up way they do missions. Those are the core beliefs of fundies. The more I learn, the less I believe in fundie-lite.

I agree with this. I don't think that there is fundie-lite either. You are either fundie or you're really good at hiding at you're fundie. I don't think they have a middle ground. 

[wikinggirl]

On 1.7.2017 at 3:49 PM, Marly said:

About the clothing, I would definitely consider women wearing skirts/dresses only as a fundy characteristic. However, this is based off of the skirt/pants custom from Dutch fundies I know, who don’t wear dresses/skirts for modesty reasons, but because they believe the Bible says women can’t wear men’s clothes and vice versa. Hence, the skirts/pants is tied in with strict gender divisions and rules. 

I think this is so interesting, because I never thought of skirts and dresses as a fundie thing before I came to FJ. Probably because I haven't worn jeans or pants in over ten years, and I'm far from religious or fundie. I just prefer dresses, and so does a lot of my friends. 

[Marly]

I prefer dresses and skirts as well, but there's a difference between the skirts worn by fundies and 'normal' skirts. Where I live, you can genereally pick out the women who wear skirts for religious reasons, and those who just wear skirts because they like to wear a skirt. The fundy women here never wear skirts that don't cover the knees when standing (they don't need to be long enough to also cover your knees when you sit, unless it's in church), and the skirts they wear generally look a bit more 'old fashioned' because of that. Although, now that longer skirts and dresses have become fashionable again, a lot of younger girls do actually look stylish. However, you can then still pick them out of the crowd because they (generally) don't wear a lot of make up, and don't do anything too outstanding with their hair. (As opposed to the Bates' and the Duggars, a lot of Dutch fundies believe that elaborate make up and hair styles are a sign of vanity, and they believe God warns against the evilness of vanity, so they deliberately abstain from wearing too much make up and having fancy hairstyles.)

I have to add, I grew up in a 'bible belt' town, so from a very young age onward my association with a certain type of clothing style (longer skirts, overall plain looking clothes and appearance) has been "they wear that for religiou sreasons". Similar to the association you probably have when you see a woman who wears a hijab: you know they wear it because they are religious. 
 

[Eternalbluepearl]

Just to add to Whitney and Zach being less fundy, I remember in some episode they talked about some of the Bates kids going to Zach and Whitney's house to watch movies. I also remember Zack saying that he didn't watch TV growing up but that he would allow Bradley to to least watch Winnie the Pooh. So they are less strict about some stuff.

[OyToTheVey]

1 hour ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

I also remember Zack saying that he didn't watch TV growing up but that he would allow Bradley to to least watch Winnie the Pooh. So they are less strict about some stuff.

Zach is giving his kids what he didn't have. Saturday morning cartoons on the couch with a blankie. It's the best part of childhood.

[VelociRapture]

On 6/29/2017 at 7:54 PM, jacduggar said:

I also believe John and Alyssa are bordering on conservative Christians. I've said before that I think Alyssa will send her daughters to an actual school, where they can cheer and be on a dance team, because I really think she wishes she could have done that. Also that they seem to have a lot of non-fundie friends down there in Florida. 

 

Only time will tell but I suspect some of the Bates will be quite different when those cameras stop rolling. 

Alyssa had already said they intend to homeschool. Saying it is one thing and doing it is another... but I don't have high hopes.

ETA: Just saw this was answered for you already. Sorry!

On 6/30/2017 at 4:19 PM, RosyDaisy said:

Patriarchy (strict gender roles not required for this), wanting a theocracy, actively stripping others of their rights, and the fucked up way they do missions. Those are the core beliefs of fundies. The more I learn, the less I believe in fundie-lite.

Agreed. I'd just add that these are beliefs that are strictly black and white for many Fundies. There's no room for compromise or alternate views.

[Carm_88]

More Fourth of July celebration from the Bateseses, they are all totally normal! [emoji39]

 

[candygirl200413]

These children are just too adorable!!

[backyard sylph]

I always thought Christian fundamentalism meant believing the Bible is the literal inerrant word of God, emphasis on literal. Being evangelical means going out and collecting others into the fold, but they range widely from fundamental to really not at all.

[speller24]

On 6/30/2017 at 9:13 AM, front hugs > duggs said:

Bold is mine. Alyssa stated publically that she plans on homeschooling her children. This was on both her instagram as a story as well as the Bringing up Bates Facebook live feed before an episode this season. Of course she could change her mind, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting.  

I have so much hope for Alyssa. She is really stretching those wings of her's and I just hope she can make it a bit further. Encouraging her girls to have an option of a career while being a mother (being a stay at home mom by choice is totally valid and incredibly acceptable), wearing pants(SHORTS!), I could even see her wearing a bikini with a belly button piercing. She seems very eager to explore the real outside world, and wants a be normal. OR I'm reading it all wrong and am just fantasizing because this cult, IMHO, is terrible and I want to see it burn. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Zach has lost a lot of weight, and wow, Whitney could be a model! That Apple Watch isn't exactly frugal. They're a long way from the frumpy days.

[jqlgoblue]

I think Alyssa can dress however she wants and still keep all of the major beliefs she has always had (except for needing to wear dresses / be super modest). While I do see that Alyssa is more likely to be her own person than some of the others, I don't have high hopes on the school front.

John was one of the Weber kids who was home schooled and Papa Weber, Mr. Congressman, has been one of the largest supporters of deregulating schooling and allowing homeschooling, especially of the uber-religious variety. While they may dress 'normal', I don't think the writing is on the wall for public school with science class. Maybe a super evangelical church in their area will have a school that they can somehow afford or get scholarships to... I could see that as the kids get older.

With John having his own business, and the fact that Alyssa currently helps, that is a lot for her to take on in the early years of a business when John needs help, before the kids are useful free child labor but I don't think that will change what happens. Alyssa is at least a hard worker from what we've seen / how Kelly & Gil praise her, and of all of them probably one of the most capable of the challenge to juggle it all. (I'll leave aside my skepticism that any of them has enough critical thought to teach school, but if they are using wisdom booklets that hardly matters.)