Whitney and Zach Bates - Part 3

[Dandruff]

20 hours ago, neurogirl said:

What if Bradley wants to be a princess?

I'm sure I'd be sending fan letters to Steve Maxwell before they ever allowed that to happen.

[lumpentheologie]

I'm struck in this latest instagram post by just how NORMAL they look, especially Whitney. Wearing a cute sundress on a hot summer day, not worrying about covering her knees or shoulders or any skin an inch south of her collarbone -- there's really no indication that they're fundy here.

Makes me wonder if being fundy has just changed in that it has mostly backed off from the whole realm of appearance (I mean, I know they still care about being modest, but it seems not more than many conservative Christians would), or if the next generation is loosening up a bit in terms of how much of a burden they put on women to not wear anything that could possibly arouse someone. I do remember Alyssa defending her clothing choices on her instagram a while back (before she took a break) by saying that some people will lust no matter what and it's not her problem. If that's what the little Bates granddaughters are being taught that seems like a big improvement to me.

I wonder if any of that could be a response to Gothard's assaults of girls who were probably dressed impeccably by IBLP standards. 

[VelociRapture]

@lumpentheologieIt's been mentioned by some former-IBLPers that the very strict standards followed by the Duggars and Bateses were just a recommendation, not an absolute rule. Many families have been abandoning the very strict standards for a while - for instance, the Salyers and the Jacksons have allowed their daughters to wear pants for a while and may not have ever been skirts only.

So I'm guessing they're still Fundie as fuck, but have simply changed their attire to look more normal and allow them to wear what they feel comfortable in.

IF, and that's a big if, Alyssa actually meant what she says then that's good. Hopefully she'd think to teach her daughters that as well.

[lumpentheologie]

@VelociRapture Yeah, I completely agree that the skirts-only thing (and probably some others I'm not aware of) were only recommendations.  But they seem to also have abandoned the "eye-trap" stuff too (not sure if that was just a recommendation or not).  And in general it just seems like now they really don't want to look different from the rest of the world (some even showing shoulders and knees). 

I'm not trying to say they're not fundy anymore. But I think this means that it's something meaningfully different to be "fundy as fuck" than it was 10 years ago, and I think that's interesting, because if Alyssa meant what she said, (and I'm not sure why we shouldn't believe her) it means that they have gotten less extreme in their beliefs, at least in this one area. It makes me wonder what exactly is defining them as fundy, since you can't just recognize them by the prairie dresses anymore. It seems to be some combination of:

1)Trying to have as many children as possible for the LORD

2)Not letting women work outside the home (except maybe on a very temporary basis pre-marriage)

3)Making the women the unquestioning followers of their headships 

4)Homeschooling/keeping the children away from the world

5)Making children live at home until an approved courting/marriage process 

Excessive modesty would have been a 6th one, and they seem to have dropped that. Unfortunately that's the only one that's readily apparent to outsiders, so we can't really know what's going on with the 2nd-generation families because we don't know their views on most of these things. But it's true that they're still participating in the show, and so can be seen as implicitly endorsing the fundy lifestyle, which is enough of a reason to condemn them.  

[VelociRapture]

@lumpentheologieMaybe it's unfair, but I tend not to immediately trust most of what the Bateses say. Same with the Duggars - the Bateses especially though because they're much better at manipulating what they actually believe.

Is it possible Alyssa meant what she said? Absolutely! And I would honestly be really legitimately glad if she truly meant it. But I'm personally just not going to take anything at face value. If they follow those words up with actions then that's another matter. I truly hope she does because that will only benefit her innocent girls.

Your post is very good and raises interesting points. The beliefs that continue to make them Fundies ARE pretty easy to miss because they aren't so visible anymore. I would say the best course of action is to look at what IBLP currently preaches and then see how it matches up to what we've seen from the Bateses (keeping in mind that they're more careful with what they show than other families are.)

(And I don't want you to think I was being rude towards you when I wrote "Fundy as fuck" earlier. It's just a habit I have when describing how serious something is.  )

[Seculardaisy]

Excuse me if it's been posted, I didn't see it but Whit is wearing pants.

 

[ColeJo]

46 minutes ago, Seculardaisy said:

Excuse me if it's been posted, I didn't see it but Whit is wearing pants.

They are more like capris. (the smart ass has to make a remark.)

[VineHeart137]

Whitney has always reminded me of someone and I could never figure out who it was. I finally figured out it's Carrie Underwood thanks to a comment on that picture.

They look so normal in that photo. It's freaky.

[Seculardaisy]

24 minutes ago, ColeJo said:

They are more like capris. (the smart ass has to make a remark.)

Haha I almost clarified and said capris too and I was like ehh whatever just saying pants is good. 

[ColeJo]

Just now, Seculardaisy said:

Haha I almost clarified and said capris too and I was like ehh whatever just saying pants is good. 

They belong in le pantalones category. 

[mstee]

I bet Whitney was all secretive about her pants around the Bates until she saw Alyssa wearing them and was like forget this fulltime skirt shenanigans 

[lumpentheologie]

Continuing in the vein of "they look so fucking normal it's uncanny": 

Whit appears to be wearing a two-piece under that cover-up.  Glad she's not subjecting her family to wholesome wear. 

[nokidsmom]

I am not surprised to see Whit in pants and in public too.  Somehow I always had the feeling that Whitney would eventually become "unconvicted" to wear skirts only.  

[16strong]

1 hour ago, nokidsmom said:

I am not surprised to see Whit in pants and in public too.  Somehow I always had the feeling that Whitney would eventually become "unconvicted" to wear skirts only.  

She's been wearing jeans again for quite awhile. She just seems to post more pics wearing them. Personally, I don't think Zach has ever really cared much about modesty standards, and the more Kelly is busy with weddings/long-distance communication/grandkids/travel/her own kids growing up, the less time she has to police Whitney and Alyssa's wardrobes.

[Still have a free arm]

I'd actually love to see a fundy girlchild wear a venus fly trap headband: https://www.etsy.com/listing/101717684/venus-flytrap-headband-or-clip-an

I want to marry that thing! It is amazing!

[nokidsmom]

11 hours ago, 16strong said:

She's been wearing jeans again for quite awhile. She just seems to post more pics wearing them. Personally, I don't think Zach has ever really cared much about modesty standards, and the more Kelly is busy with weddings/long-distance communication/grandkids/travel/her own kids growing up, the less time she has to police Whitney and Alyssa's wardrobes.

I suspect she never totally given the pants up either.   Sure, she was supposedly "convicted" to wear skirts but that was per Kelly and who knows what Whit was wearing in private.   There was some discussion back while she and Zach were on their honeymoon that she was wearing pants (biking shorts, yoga pants or something like that) but the pictures posted only showed her from the waist up.  It was just she was hiking in Hawaii and folks were doubtful she was doing this in a skirt.

And ITA that Zach doesn't care about the modesty standards like his parents.   Also he always struck me as the type of guy who is completely besotted by his wife / girlfriend (he obviously was during his first courtship as well as with Whit) and will probably go along with what she wants, and not just in the clothing department.

I am sure Kelly has had to adjust to her daughter's and daughter in law's clothing choices.   Even though both are grown ass adults and in spite of Kelly's saying that once married, her children can make their own rules, I don't think she found it easy to actually do it.  Controlling parents never let go that easily.  Wonder if the respective headships had to tell her to let that one go.

[OyToTheVey]

That's definitely a two piece. Not to be a creeper but you can tell where the black underwear start haha Also, I really like Whitneys style. Mine is pretty much the opposite. I have that cover up in black. My primary colors are black, grey, navy, and burgundy. Sometimes different shades of blue. I'm too pale for neon. 

[16strong]

3 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

That's definitely a two piece. Not to be a creeper but you can tell where the black underwear start haha Also, I really like Whitneys style. Mine is pretty much the opposite. I have that cover up in black. My primary colors are black, grey, navy, and burgundy. Sometimes different shades of blue. I'm too pale for neon. 

Seconded on the neon. Whitney looks great in it, but I just look like I haven't bathed in a month.

[jacduggar]

Ok first of all, Zach and Whit look fantastic. Not just that they've obviously adopted a healthier lifestyle, but they look happy. Really happy, not fundie fake happy.

 

It wouldn't shock me if Alyssa said something to the effect of guys will be pervs no matter what. That's what this culture shoves onto them, after all. It's not a far jump to say "you better be modest because boys can't control their hormones" to "boys can't control themselves regardless, might as well wear shorts because I live in Florida where the temps break 90 in March." 

 

I wonder how much time Zach and Whitney really spend with Kelly and Gil. She never seemed super close to the Bates clan to me, and Zach works long/inconsistent hours. I don't know that she would really hang out with Kelly and Gil without Zach being there, and he's not basking in free time to spend with his parents. I get the vibe that K&G figure out they can't control a couple so they move on to the ones they can control (ahem Erin and Chad). I'm sure Z&W will homeschool, they'll probably have 5 or 6 kids. I anticipate more spacing from here on out with pregnancies. Still fundie, just fashionable and adults instead of kidults. 

 

On the topic, I was reading a lot regarding people's ATI stories, and it does seem true that there are varying degrees of "acceptable". For instance, some people wore pants listened to popular music, watched TV, wore bathing suits, had neighborhood friends, etc. I think the Bates/Duggars were trying to be the "perfect" Gothard followers but there seems to be a lot of variation family to family about practicing the lifestyle teachings. 

[nokidsmom]

59 minutes ago, jacduggar said:

I wonder how much time Zach and Whitney really spend with Kelly and Gil. She never seemed super close to the Bates clan to me, and Zach works long/inconsistent hours. I don't know that she would really hang out with Kelly and Gil without Zach being there, and he's not basking in free time to spend with his parents. I get the vibe that K&G figure out they can't control a couple so they move on to the ones they can control (ahem Erin and Chad). I'm sure Z&W will homeschool, they'll probably have 5 or 6 kids. I anticipate more spacing from here on out with pregnancies. Still fundie, just fashionable and adults instead of kidults. 

When Zach and Whit first married, it seemed that she embraced her in-law family full blast and that she was completely in with the family.  Not sure how it is now.  Over time, Whit does seem to do more of her own thing plus there's Zach working longer / odd hours so what leisure time he has, he prefers to spend with his own family.   

I think there's something to the vibe that Kelly and Gil still want to control their kids post marriage and agree that is easier with the ones who are still towing the line, like Cherin.   

I am not totally sure how fundie Zach and Whit will ultimately be.   They seem to be moving closer to conservative Christian territory.  

[FunDieDumDum]

Wow - I hadn't followed these two for several months, but then I check in today and hear about (and then of course look at) all these photos on Instagram...they look damn happy! Lots of people can put on fake smiles for a camera, but it's not easy to fake actually looking HAPPY in photo after photo like they do.

Whatever their beliefs, it's great to see that they seem happy - and, when people are truly content and comfortable with themselves and their relationship, it can do a lot to open up other horizons, ways of thinking and viewing the world around them, etc.. Those who double down on extreme beliefs (we have plenty of examples here on FJ) are often compensating for something else which is missing in their lives; that's my two cents at least. 

[jacduggar]

3 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

When Zach and Whit first married, it seemed that she embraced her in-law family full blast and that she was completely in with the family.  Not sure how it is now.  Over time, Whit does seem to do more of her own thing plus there's Zach working longer / odd hours so what leisure time he has, he prefers to spend with his own family.   

I think there's something to the vibe that Kelly and Gil still want to control their kids post marriage and agree that is easier with the ones who are still towing the line, like Cherin.   

I am not totally sure how fundie Zach and Whit will ultimately be.   They seem to be moving closer to conservative Christian territory.  

I also believe John and Alyssa are bordering on conservative Christians. I've said before that I think Alyssa will send her daughters to an actual school, where they can cheer and be on a dance team, because I really think she wishes she could have done that. Also that they seem to have a lot of non-fundie friends down there in Florida. 

 

Only time will tell but I suspect some of the Bates will be quite different when those cameras stop rolling. 

[eleanora3]

That's an off the shoulder romper. Loving ittt

[JesusCampSongs]

3 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

When Zach and Whit first married, it seemed that she embraced her in-law family full blast and that she was completely in with the family.  Not sure how it is now.  Over time, Whit does seem to do more of her own thing plus there's Zach working longer / odd hours so what leisure time he has, he prefers to spend with his own family.   

I think there's something to the vibe that Kelly and Gil still want to control their kids post marriage and agree that is easier with the ones who are still towing the line, like Cherin.   

Unlike the other Bates spouses (and spouses-to-be), Whitney is from eastern Tennessee and wasn't raised fundie, so she probably has her own social circle outside of the family. 

Someone pointed out that Tori's courtship partner/fiance/wtfever is moving to TN instead of her moving to Florida, and speculated that this may be because the Bates don't want additional kids following Alyssa's example. 

[RosyDaisy]

I'm thinking the relaxed dress code has more to do with attracting new members than a change In conviction. The nore "normal" IBLP looks, the more converts they could win over. Their core beliefs are still the same.

I don't think Whitney is wearing a lot of expensive designer clothes. They look like knock offs to me. Nothing wrong with that at all. I do it. Given the show money, she probably does have a few designer items, especially for her kids. This does not mean they are any less fundie.

As for Alyssa, she lives in Florida. Given the hot, humid climate, it doesn't surprise me that she ditched the skirts and dresses. Plus, as the DIL of a U.S. congressman, she has to appear somewhat normal. That and her comment about wanting six kids, sill doesn't make me believe she isn't any less fundie in her core beliefs.

The vast majority of fundies do no have strict dress codes, strict gender roles, believe in courtship, forbid birth control, are not quiverful, and don't homeschool. The Bates, Duggars, and their kind represent only a fraction of the fundie population. All fundies do share some core beliefs just not those.