The Boyer Sisters: Part 4

[catlady]

4 minutes ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

I admit I buy Avon online maybe once a year, to stock up on the waterproof eyeliners. Good stuff & decent prices when there is a sale. Did not know it is MLM.

i like Avon products, too.  i don't have a regular salesperson right now, but when i do, i'm like @formergothardite and i tend to buy a lot.  

a few years back when Mr. CL was selling (he tried it for several months while he was working part time and felt bad that i was working 45+ hours/week), he didn't have to stock up on product.  he had to pay for his catalogs and some marketing materials, but all of his purchases were based on customer orders.  he had to pay wholesale up front, but he kept the difference that the customer paid in retail.   he had to place an order every 2 weeks in order to stay active, but i don't recall if there was a minimum.  and yes, i always ordered at least one item.  his upline got a cut of his sales, and he didn't have a downline.  

he quit when he got full-time hours.  when we did the math, he made a tiny profit, but it was nowhere near enough to make a serious impact on our income.

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

The real money is made by having a downline.

Which has to include her daughters as well as other family, friends & acquaintances like church members.

Unbelievable -- it's a perversion of the stated VF ideal wherein a family business sustains futures generations. In this case, Stacy is making money off the future generations.

 

[SoybeanQueen]

On 4/25/2017 at 2:47 AM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

You need to be a special kind of deluded stronzo to help a multinational corporation to scam your family and friends in the illusion of getting richer.

Well, I've never tried to sell American cheese or pasta in Italy, nor am I sure what that has to do with leggings sales in the U.S., but I have earned a significant amount of money selling a product (Norwex cleaning products) to people who wanted it (without recruiting). I also did not pay anything to begin selling the products. If that makes me deluded, cool. My bank account was also deluded into thinking it had money coming in. Luckily, my debit card seemed to dispense my illusion-money pretty well.

Even though I no longer sell the products, people still contact me to ask if they can buy things. Clearly they did not feel scammed by purchasing things from me, and most were not my friends and family.

I make my own cheese and pasta most of the time. Never exported any of it because it's scarfed down by my (deluded?) kids.

On 4/25/2017 at 11:31 AM, GenerationCedarchip said:

I'm an oily philistine, but I really don't see any difference between these and the quality of what I buy from Eden's Garden or Mountain Rose Herbs.

Oily philistine... LOL. I've tried all sorts of less expensive oils along with a few YL types, too, and I see no difference. There's one blend that I like from YL that I buy because it's more convenient than mixing my own with a carrier oil and getting the roller containers, but there's also one I buy for less than $10 from Target for the same reason.  My nose is unable to tell the price difference when diffusing oils.

[hoipolloi]

6 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

Clearly they did not feel scammed by purchasing things from me, and most were not my friends and family.

If you say so.

If someone tried to sell me a four-piece Household Package Plus for $77 -- and two pieces appear to be dusting cloths -- I would NOT regard that as a good or fair deal. Obviously, YMMV.

[SoybeanQueen]

6 hours ago, CTRLZero said:

If I buy genital-themed outerwear, I want to do it on purpose, not have it pointed out to me in a potentially awkward situation, lol.

Ditto! Genitals are fine, just never in surprise form.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

Well, I've never tried to sell American cheese or pasta in Italy, nor am I sure what that has to do with leggings sales in the U.S.

Oh please don't play dumb! We were talking about MLMs and I was specifically referring to Amway. 

Also in case you don't know MLM scams are quite different from legitimate direct selling (as Avon did in the past, like ie Vorwerk does). From your description your working relationship with Norwex may belong to the latter (I have no idea I don't know Norwex). You can unknot your pants.

In any case if you want to know if you are dealing with a scam here you can find useful resources https://pyramidschemealert.org/are-all-mlms-scams/

[SoybeanQueen]

3 hours ago, catlady said:

@formergothardite

a few years back when Mr. CL was selling (he tried it for several months while he was working part time and felt bad that i was working 45+ hours/week), he didn't have to stock up on product.  he had to pay for his catalogs and some marketing materials, but all of his purchases were based on customer orders.  he had to pay wholesale up front, but he kept the difference that the customer paid in retail.   he had to place an order every 2 weeks in order to stay active, but i don't recall if there was a minimum.  his upline got a cut of his sales, and he didn't have a downline. 

So, this is exactly how it worked when I sold Norwex, except I didn't need to place an order every 2 weeks (I think it was every 3 months? It was never an issue so I didn't pay much attention to that part). I bought some catalogs, but most of my customers bought online or contacted me to ask about a product their friend had, so I never spent very much money on marketing. It wasn't necessary. Most months I could have paid our mortgage with the money I made selling products. I never recruited, so I didn't ever have money coming in from others.

[Coconut Flan]

I was interested in why they were popular at all at that price and found this:

Quote

Don't believe the multi-level marketing!!, April 17, 2016

By 

me

This review is from: Norwex Enviro Cloth, Blue (Kitchen)

My wife purchased $125 worth of these cloths telling me that they kill bacteria and will not spread bacteria. I am in the medical field and do not believe anything without reviewing evidence and studies. I therefore took one of our regular dish cloths as well as a Norwex and used them both for a day in the usual dishwashing and counter cleaning fashion and then went to our lab and cultured them both. The Norwex cloth actually grew out a higher number of different bacterial colonies than the regular dish cloth. If you like the cloth because it feels good or wipes up better, and feel like spending 20 times as much on a cloth, then great, go for it. But if you are using it because it is impregnated with silver to kill bacteria then you are being duped! It is nothing more than a scam with multi-level marketing. Proof is in the culture and agar plates! We used to use silver for burns, infections, etc, but now just use Bacitracin. Ask any specialized burn unit. Silver has lost favor in the antibacterial world.

 

[SoybeanQueen]

5 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Oh please don't play dumb! We were talking about MLMs and I was specifically referring to Amway. 

Also in case you don't know MLM scams are quite different from legitimate direct selling (as Avon did in the past, like ie Vorwerk does). From your description your working relationship with Norwex may belong to the latter (I have no idea I don't know Norwex). You can unknot your pants.

In any case if you want to know if you are dealing with a scam here you can find useful resources https://pyramidschemealert.org/are-all-mlms-scams/

I have no idea what Amway sells since I've never been involved with that group in any way, shape or form. I thought we were talking about MLM leggings and oils? Knowledge of all product lines of all MLMs probably isn't necessary to have a polite discussion here. I'm quite well aware of what MLM is, thank you. It's interesting that you would suggest I'm playing dumb by not knowing that Amway sells cheese in Italy (WTF?), a country in which I do not live, but you don't hold yourself to the same all-encompassing product knowledge standard on American MLMs.

FYI - I was joking about the delusion thing. Unless you think I believe my bank account actually dispenses illusion cash, which would be weird.

[catlady]

1 minute ago, SoybeanQueen said:

So, this is exactly how it worked when I sold Norwex, except I didn't need to place an order every 2 weeks (I think it was every 3 months? It was never an issue so I didn't pay much attention to that part). I bought some catalogs, but most of my customers bought online or contacted me to ask about a product their friend had, so I never spent very much money on marketing. It wasn't necessary. Most months I could have paid our mortgage with the money I made selling products. I never recruited, so I didn't ever have money coming in from others.

fair enough; so Norwex isn't MLM.  but the point in general is that many of these companies are, and recruits are pushed to form their downlines since that's where the bulk of their profits come from.  Mr. CL could have made more money if he recruited people, but he didn't.  at the same time, he was still able to earn spending money because their upfront costs weren't bank-busters, the overhead was low, and they didn't make him keep a stock of products unless he wanted to.  then you have companies like LuLaRoe....

[Kariina]

Regardless of the scam-or-not argument, I just find representatives, parties, and pop-ups a ridiculously inefficient way to shop. Maybe some people feel differently and find it worthwhile for specific products -- more power to you if you find a Mary Kay product miracle for your skin type or whatever -- but gah! Out of morbid curiosity I joined a local LuLaRoe popup (online) once and I couldn't get over how inefficient the claiming-and-buying "system" was.

To chime in on someone's question earlier -- ThredUp isn't an MLM. I love them for buying brands for which I already know my size. I definitely had to unsubscribe from the obnoxious emails though.

[formergothardite]

11 minutes ago, catlady said:

fair enough; so Norwex isn't MLM.

It appears that it is an MLM.

Quote

 

Like any other MLM company, you have to become an Independent Norwex Sales Consultant before you could actually earn from this them.

I will give you some information about the compensation plan that they offer below.

You can earn 35% commission on your personal retail sales. Initially, you will get a discount of 35% when you buy the products as an Independent Consultant and you can sell the product to the customer at the retail price to earn your profit.

You also get $300 worth of free product of your choice for each new Qualified Personal Recruit.

Another way of earning is by hosting parties. This is provided by the company at no cost. The hosts also get generous rewards for hosting parties.

You can also earn money from the sales of your team. You can recruit your friends, relatives or any stranger that is interested in joining your team. The Internet is a great place to recruit people. I have not yet noticed the percentage of commission on team sales, but I think it should be around 2% to 5%.

You can also win gifts and awards for doing well as a consultant of this company. You can win gifts and awards from sales incentive programs and team building promotions.

 

Quote

 

Norwex gives you 90 days to sell $2,000 worth of products to avoid paying for the starter kit. I think this is not beneficial to most people as selling $2,000 worth of products in 90 days is not easy at all. The starter kit comes with the usual basic business supplies like order forms, catalogues, training materials, and some other things that you will need to start selling.

The starter kit will cost you $200 when you fail to sell $2,000 worth of products in 90 days.

 

https://howtopassiveincome.net/what-is-the-norwex-mlm-read-this-before-joining

Other websites provide this info too. I guess you can sell it without trying to recruit people, but you can do that with Plexus and Plexus is still very much an MLM. 

[Palimpsest]

9 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

I was interested in why they were popular at all at that price and found this: 

That is really interesting.  I wish we could send this part to Shrader with his devotion to colloidal silver.  

10 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

But if you are using it because it is impregnated with silver to kill bacteria then you are being duped! It is nothing more than a scam with multi-level marketing. Proof is in the culture and agar plates! We used to use silver for burns, infections, etc, but now just use Bacitracin. Ask any specialized burn unit. Silver has lost favor in the antibacterial world.

Now I feel better about my old fashioned cleaning methods of using clean rags and a low tech antibacterial vinegar and water solution instead of fancy expensive cloths.  You know what makes the best dust cloths too?  Old worn out towels cut into pieces.  Use 'em and toss them into the washing machine.

On the difference between scam MLMs and legitimate direct sales businesses - Tupperware still seems to be on the side of the Gods too.  I hope so.

9 minutes ago, Kariina said:

Regardless of the scam-or-not argument, I just find representatives, parties, and pop-ups a ridiculously inefficient way to shop.

This is my allergic reaction to this stuff too - even legitimate non-pyramid schemes.  I'm not a party person and I detest being invited to these things by friends and acquaintances.  I've never had a family member try to sell me stuff but I can imagine it would be very awkward.

[SoybeanQueen]

1 hour ago, Coconut Flan said:

I was interested in why they were popular at all at that price and found this:

 

He is incorrect that the cloths are designed to kill bacteria, so he's starting off on the wrong foot entirely. Plus, the red herring about what's used to treat wounds is dumb. Is he suggesting I wipe Bacitracin all over my kitchen counter? That's gross. And greasy. He doesn't sound like a very good scientist. (Edited because while I was shower-pondering - and I remembered that the dish cloth and the regular kitchen cloth are the only two that do not have silver in them, so it's possible he was "testing" the silver in cloths that don't even have it.)

What he claims to have tested has also been tested independently in a lab and found the opposite. I don't care if anyone here buys or uses the cloths. That isn't the point. I do not benefit one way or another, and I only mentioned Norwex at all because of the idea floated earlier that you can't make money selling products, and because it sounds exactly like the Avon model that everyone was praising earlier.

My house is clean. Hopefully everyone else's is? If so, yay!

Semi-related to MLM discussion - I don't trust most relatively anonymous online reviews, especially when they begin with "I'm an expert!" There are people who claim to be scientists of various types who email me daily, literally, to try to tell me that children don't really need to ride in modern car seats. That doesn't make it true. I always find it odd that skepticism seems to have such a dividing line to it. Personally, I put random alleged scientist guy testing his kitchen cloths in the same category as all of the alleged nutrition or oil experts who want to tell you what to buy to cure diabetes or cancer or bad mood.

(Also shower-thought - I'm a freelancer, so I do lots of seemingly odd jobs. One of them is teaching and writing about child passenger safety. Otherwise it would be completely bizarre for people to email me about kids not riding in car seats.)

1 hour ago, Kariina said:

Regardless of the scam-or-not argument, I just find representatives, parties, and pop-ups a ridiculously inefficient way to shop.

No, I totally agree with you. I hate the model entirely. It annoys me when products I like are only available that way.

[SoybeanQueen]

13 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It appears that it is an MLM.

https://howtopassiveincome.net/what-is-the-norwex-mlm-read-this-before-joining

Other websites provide this info too. I guess you can sell it without trying to recruit people, but you can do that with Plexus and Plexus is still very much an MLM. 

Yes, it is. Selling $2000 in product in 90 days was not difficult in the least, though. However! As I mentioned, maybe in another thread somewhere, there wasn't anyone else selling the same products here. I didn't need to compete for sales. I stopped selling it when others locally were recruited by people elsewhere. I wouldn't open another grocery store in a small town, either. Usually doesn't go well.

[SilverBeach]

I have never had an Avon rep ask me to join up. They did not seem interested in recruiting competitors. The most I have seen is a blurb on the brochure asking if perhaps you would be interested in selling. Same with Tupperware. 

I don't consider these MLMs as sellers make their money from getting a percentage of goods sold, not recruiting hapless people who will likely never see a dime in profit.

[SilverBeach]

If MLM folks would read the fine print in their partnership agreement, they would find that 70% of their product is supposed to be sold to the general public (in the US).

This is a legal requirement to avoid being considered a pyramid scheme where product sales are incidental and recruitment of new distributors with mandatory purchase requirements is the real business.

It also helps to remember that gross sales means nothing, it's net profit that matters. MLMs load you down with so many expenses that profitability, especially with their wacko compensation plans, is an elusive dream.

I hate MLMs.

[Grimalkin]

    Plenty of people I know are part of MLMs. Most are nice people who just like the product and keep it low key. It's a minority who are obnoxious and aggressive. I just politely turn down invitations because I don't care for paying crazy prices for regular products. It's interesting to me that the most obnoxious person on my FB feed was a neighbor i grew up with. Her main income in her early twenties was filing lawsuits. 

     I don't think all sellers are scammers, I just stay away, and keep my opinions to myself, unless asked.

[Cartmann99]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Now I feel better about my old fashioned cleaning methods of using clean rags and a low tech antibacterial vinegar and water solution instead of fancy expensive cloths.  You know what makes the best dust cloths too?  Old worn out towels cut into pieces.  Use 'em and toss them into the washing machine.

Vinegar and water is my preferred cleaning solution for counters, inside the refrigerator, and for my built-in cutting board. I like to save my old towels, tear them into squares, and then sew a matching square from an old T-shirt or flannel sheet onto it, and make a double sided cleaning cloth.

I like microfiber products for certain uses though. I have hard floors throughout my home, and I love my machine washable microfiber moping and dusting pads. I upgraded to a 18 inch stainless steel mop frame from Microfiber Wholesale, and it is so much nicer than my old mop. I also have one of their flexible microfiber dusters, and it's very nice for cleaning ceiling fans and crown molding.

[Coy Koi]

8 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I didn't know Avon was being discussed there until you mentioned it.  I really should catch up on Jill R.

You should! We're currently trying to get her shut down because she's blatantly and flagrantly breaking the law with her Plexus cure-all claims.

[PreciousPantsofDoom]

2 hours ago, SoybeanQueen said:

He is incorrect that the cloths are designed to kill bacteria, so he's starting off on the wrong foot entirely. Plus, the red herring about what's used to treat wounds is dumb. Is he suggesting I wipe Bacitracin all over my kitchen counter? That's gross. And greasy. He doesn't sound like a very good scientist.

What he claims to have tested has also been tested independently in a lab and found the opposite. 

OMFG Norwex.  

I have no idea if the scientist that @Coconut Flan referenced is a good scientist or not, but the point is that some Norwex salespeople have been known to make rather ridiculous claims about their fantastical silver threads in order to justify their pricey merch.  Claims that make scientists (and other people with brains) skeptical.  

I haven't read all the studies on silver cloths, but I can say that the things I have read do not support all of the claims that SOME Norwex people have been known to make (not saying its all of them and not saying you were doing that. )  The problem isn't really about whether the company can find studies to support their official claims, it's why the problem of salespeople making additional unsupported claims continues  to be a thing. 

Its a problem that quite a few MLM's seem to have. Is it pressure from the company to make sales? Is it desperation to sell product?  Is it misleading information provided to salespeople by the company? Is it a lack of knowledge on the part of the salespeople (either through poor training by the companies or through poor general knowledge  (I'm looking at you Jill "Plexus miracle cure" Rod)  or what?  I don't know, but people do keep putting out questionable claims to drive sales aND sign up followers.. Yes, the companies do make some (token) efforts to curtail the worst of it, but the problem persists.

I'm glad you had a good experience with Norwex. That's great that you had no trouble shifting the obligatory  $2000 in 90 days.  Good for you.  I don't know you, and didn't see your sales materials, so I'll just assume you were one of the good ones who didn't push, didn't try to recruit a downline and didn't make false claims.  Yay you!  Just realize that your experience may not be typical.

I too distrust anyone who takes one example and extrapolates from that to become an expert on the whole topic.

 

 

 

 

 

[Chocolatedefrauded]

Microfiber Wholesale, you say? Thanks for the tip...  I need a extra big mop.

i just had my first Norwex sighting on Facebook so it must have hit my area. I'll have to check out the sales pitch cause the seller is usually level headed.

[Cartmann99]

59 minutes ago, Chocolatedefrauded said:

Microfiber Wholesale, you say? Thanks for the tip...  I need a extra big mop.

i just had my first Norwex sighting on Facebook so it must have hit my area. I'll have to check out the sales pitch cause the seller is usually level headed.

I bought my mop and duster through their storefront on Amazon.

[Ali]

On 4/23/2017 at 5:29 AM, jozina said:

why are your sisters-in-law dipping into the "dark side" of magical oils whose magic and traditional uses can derive from other religions or belief systems like Hinduism?  The horrors.  Will they be finding themselves in Wicca or Buddhism next perhaps?  Not that there's anything at all wrong with that of course but I'd guess we have different views on non-Christian religions.  Why do you think the magic and wondrous uses of these oils were revealed via non-Christian gods instead of by your one true Christian God?

It's simple.  You claim references to oils or medicines in the Bible are essential oils. Some say there are about 200 references and some say there are over 600 references. God gave us these magical oils. They are biblical.

http://mymerrymessylife.com/2015/12/12-essential-oils-of-ancient-scripture-webinar-notes-and-video.html

https://www.youngliving.com/en_US/products/oils-of-ancient-scripture-kit

http://ourdailydrop.com/biblical-references/

Also, I hate MLM companies. I had not tell not one, but two, DoTerra saleswomen that I am not interested this past weekend.

 

[RoseWilder]

I'm so glad I found this thread. One of my co-workers just began selling Young Living Essential Oils and now I feel like I'm trapped in a damn infomercial every time I'm near her. It doesn't matter what the topic is, she finds a way to bring it back to essential oils.

And I'm really not sure why she thinks that having bought a starter kit qualifies her to give me medical advice. I have politely let her know that I'm not going to be treating my medical problems (in which my entire endocrine system keeps trying to shut down) with essential oils. I'm going to instead rely on the advice of my doctor (you know, the person who actually went to medical school) to prescribe the medicine that makes it possible for me to get out of bed in the morning and go to the very workplace where I'm being harassed about essential oils. 

I'm not opposed to alternative treatments. I even use some. But I use the ones I've discussed with my doctor (who runs an integrative health clinic that offers conventional and alternative treatment options.) I've somehow gotten this crazy idea in my head that a person who went to medical school and spent several additional years studying nutrition, Chinese medicine, and acupuncture might be more qualified to give me advice on alternative treatments than someone who is in a pyramid scheme. 

I've spent 27 years in the chronic illness world, pursuing every treatment option available (including essential oils, which I tried about fifteen years ago) and I've encountered quite a few snake oil salesmen along the way. I thought I had lost my ability to be shocked by the way these despicable charlatans prey on people who are sick and scared and desperate for healing. But being harassed about essential oils by someone who already knows how much I have been through with my health problems has really shocked me. I once told this person, in confidence about how sick I have been in the past, and now she's trying to exploit my health problems to make money. It's disgusting.