Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath

[Palimpsest]

17 minutes ago, Peas n carrots said:

Interesting I was initially more skeptical of Rinder but I think over the years my view has softened. You are correct he did some pretty shitty things, but he has apologized. One of the many things I dislike about $ci - in particular Sea Org - is how normal people are broken down and under duress become vicious.

I could see Marty Rathbun going back - and in some ways he has tried to set up his own Squirrel thing. As I understand Rinder has completely left the ideology behind.

Tommy Davis - I don't think he has gone public about exiting the church. He is selling real estate in Austin, TX last I heard?

 

Yeah, I think Rinder and Marty Rathbun were on record at one point as saying that it was the leadership (Miscavige) that was the problem, not Co$.  Rinder may have softened.  He was actually more forthcoming in some ways in this program than he has been previously.  I'm still a mite suspicious.

Tommy Davis certainly blew, but he was meaner than a box of rattlesnakes when in the cult.  Is Anne Archer still in and has she disconnected with him?  I should look for myself but do save me time.

I haven't been keeping up properly with Tony Ortega and Operation Clambake recently.  Lack of time.

 

[Caribou]

@Palimpsest, have you read Ron Miscavige's book, "Ruthless: Scientology, My Son David Miscavige, and Me"?

I've always found Scientology fascinating & disturbing but have little first hand experience with the "religion" (they tried to hook my extremely cynical, sarcastic, atheist husband at a flea market in Clearwater - it was hilarious)  but I thought "Going Clear" was really good. While I thought Ron's book certainly shed more light on Co$ practices, he didn't really come across as a sympathetic character. I'm currently reading Jenna Miscavige Hill's book and, so far, feel nothing but empathy for her.

Just wondering what your thoughts are on Ron and his book. 

[Palimpsest]

28 minutes ago, Caribou said:

@Palimpsest, have you read Ron Miscavige's book, "Ruthless: Scientology, My Son David Miscavige, and Me"?

I've always found Scientology fascinating & disturbing but have little first hand experience with the "religion" (they tried to hook my extremely cynical, sarcastic, atheist husband at a flea market in Clearwater - it was hilarious)  but I thought "Going Clear" was really good. While I thought Ron's book certainly shed more light on Co$ practices, he didn't really come across as a sympathetic character. I'm currently reading Jenna Miscavige Hill's book and, so far, feel nothing but empathy for her.

Just wondering what your thoughts are on Ron and his book. 

Yes, and I agree with you.  Ron was first generation, a mess of a person, an abusive spouse, and not sympathetic at all.  

There are probably many truths in there - but when I look at David Miscavige (the psychopath) I can see some of the roots of what made him what he is in his father's book.

I agree with you about Jenna Miscavige Hill's book.  I also believe Amy Scobee and her mother.

What do you think of Karen de la Carriere?  

[Caribou]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Yes, and I agree with you.  Ron was first generation, a mess of a person, an abusive spouse, and not sympathetic at all.  

There are probably many truths in there - but when I look at David Miscavige (the psychopath) I can see some of the roots of what made him what he is in his father's book.

I agree with you about Jenna Miscavige Hill's book.  I also believe Amy Scobee and her mother.

What do you think of Karen de la Carriere?  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2744101/Karen-lived-like-Queen-wife-Scientology-s-President-But-fell-grace-punished-The-Hole-When-left-church-35-years-son-turned-against-Here-reveals-disturbing-story.html

I've never heard of her until I googled.....

Wow, that is some disturbing shit

[DaniLouisiana]

Why in the hell the "church" flagship at Clearwater have a cross?!? No!  

[quiversR4hunting]

Oh.my.god. 

Hiring a PI with a kid to live across Mike Rinder, befriend his wife and child and then when they move, she moves across the street again. They figure it out and they never see her again. Then a camera in the bird house. Holy shit. 

NicNog should listen to Mike, video taping across the street is not illegal,  which is why he can't get it to stop. But holy shit it is wrong. Mike and his family are truly harassed. 

 

[LadyCrow1313]

18 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I wouldn't call you crazy.   Which parts did you think were forced and sensationalized?

Leah has rather dramatic delivery, but unfortunately nothing the program covered was new to me nor was it sensationalized, IMO.  I'm just a person who has been observing the cult since the 1970s.  That's when I had a tiny brush with them and luckily ran like hell.  I still think they might have got me in their clutches if they'd used a softer sell.  

Scientology has always been weird as hell.  A "religion" cynically invented by a sci fi author who wanted fame, fortune and adulation.  L Ron, rather dramatically disappeared and died, quite suspiciously, in hiding.  Co$ has started to implode over the last few years as David Miscavige (who is a psycho) began attacking more and more higher ups in the organization.  The ones who blow tell remarkably consistent stories about what is going on behind the scenes.  Yes, it is believable.

I don't know who first coined the acronym but it's quite common among watchers and survivors.  

Unfortunately it is recognized as a church and a religion in far too many countries.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_status_by_country

As I've only seen one episode once so far, I can't remember enough about it to pinpoint exactly which parts I was referring to. And to be honest, you said it much better than I. (Thank you.)

[Palimpsest]

11 hours ago, Caribou said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2744101/Karen-lived-like-Queen-wife-Scientology-s-President-But-fell-grace-punished-The-Hole-When-left-church-35-years-son-turned-against-Here-reveals-disturbing-story.html

I've never heard of her until I googled.....

Wow, that is some disturbing shit

Yes, indeed.  Her former husband, Heber Jentzsch, is still on the missing list and is probably in the Hole at Gold Base, if he is still alive.  She and a few others were talking about filing an elder abuse report in CA a few years ago, but I don't know if anything came of it.

Shelly Miscavige is also supposed to be in the Hole.  

 

[quiversR4hunting]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Yes, indeed.  Her former husband, Heber Jentzsch, is still on the missing list and is probably in the Hole at Gold Base, if he is still alive.  She and a few others were talking about filing an elder abuse report in CA a few years ago, but I don't know if anything came of it.

Shelly Miscavige is also supposed to be in the Hole.  

 

That is so sad. So many parallels to the trailers for the FLDS. And Kingston have something similar. And that cult in TX(?) That has store, house of prayer or something like that.  Very sad.

[Palimpsest]

11 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Oh.my.god. 

Hiring a PI with a kid to live across Mike Rinder, befriend his wife and child and then when they move, she moves across the street again. They figure it out and they never see her again. Then a camera in the bird house. Holy shit. 

NicNog should listen to Mike, video taping across the street is not illegal,  which is why he can't get it to stop. But holy shit it is wrong. Mike and his family are truly harassed. 

 

There is a level of what goes around comes around about this.  Rinder knows what Fair Game is - he hired plenty of investigators himself in the old days so being shocked that Co$ went after him with PIs is a bit disingenuous.

This article is why I think Rinder still can't be trusted, even though it is a few years old.   http://www.villagevoice.com/news/the-top-25-people-crippling-scientology-no-8-mike-rinder-6672762

Rinder isn't forthcoming or straightforward about what he did - and tries to whitewash his own actions by saying that they were at least legal compared to the bad old days before Operation Snow White.

Oy, Leah!  I want to hear more in this series about lesser known victims of Scientology.  Rinder has had plenty of air time over the years since he blew.

[MamaJunebug]

13 hours ago, DaniLouisiana said:

Why in the hell the "church" flagship at Clearwater have a cross?!? No!  

It infuriates me as a Christian, too. 

I've read that Hubbard stole the concept from a pagan who used a cross "x'ed out" to show contempt for Christianity. 

Hence my fury: to the seeker, Scientology presents itself as a christian organization. Despicable. 

[lilwriter85]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

There is a level of what goes around comes around about this.  Rinder knows what Fair Game is - he hired plenty of investigators himself in the old days so being shocked that Co$ went after him with PIs is a bit disingenuous.

This article is why I think Rinder still can't be trusted, even though it is a few years old.   http://www.villagevoice.com/news/the-top-25-people-crippling-scientology-no-8-mike-rinder-6672762

Rinder isn't forthcoming or straightforward about what he did - and tries to whitewash his own actions by saying that they were at least legal compared to the bad old days before Operation Snow White.

Oy, Leah!  I want to hear more in this series about lesser known victims of Scientology.  Rinder has had plenty of air time over the years since he blew.

Yup, he's made the media rounds quite a bit. A couple of years ago he was in UK documentary about Scientology. I saw the documentary on youtube and was taken down after a few days. Another former Scienologist who has had a lot of airtime is Marty Rathbun.

There is a former Scientologist Tory Christman who is youtube and hangs out with Anonymous protesters. Nancy Many, author of My Billion Year Contract was on ID documentary about cults. I don't think I've seen her in other documentaries or shows.

[Palimpsest]

8 minutes ago, lilwriter85 said:

Yup, he's made the media rounds quite a bit. A couple of years ago he was in UK documentary about Scientology. I saw the documentary on youtube and was taken down after a few days. Another former Scienologist who has had a lot of airtime is Marty Rathbun.

The Panorama/Sweeney documentary?  It's good.  As is the more recent "Going Clear" and the book.

Here's an update (article and video) from Sweeney talking with Rinder after he left.  They discuss the techniques they, and Tommy Davis particularly, used to push Sweeney into totally losing his cool. http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9032000/9032278.stm

Quote

There is a former Scientologist Tory Christman who is youtube and hangs out with Anonymous protesters. Nancy Many, author of My Billion Year Contract was on ID documentary about cults. I don't think I've seen her in other documentaries or shows.

Yes, I'd like to hear more from them.

[Crocoduck]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

This article is why I think Rinder still can't be trusted, even though it is a few years old.   http://www.villagevoice.com/news/the-top-25-people-crippling-scientology-no-8-mike-rinder-6672762

Rinder isn't forthcoming or straightforward about what he did - and tries to whitewash his own actions by saying that they were at least legal compared to the bad old days before Operation Snow White.

Yeah, his tone here is troubling. The only reason I can feel somewhat sympathetic toward him is because he was indoctrinated at such a young age.

[seattlechic]

16 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Oh.my.god. 

Hiring a PI with a kid to live across Mike Rinder, befriend his wife and child and then when they move, she moves across the street again. They figure it out and they never see her again. Then a camera in the bird house. Holy shit. 

NicNog should listen to Mike, video taping across the street is not illegal,  which is why he can't get it to stop. But holy shit it is wrong. Mike and his family are truly harassed. 

 

No shit (see what I did there???). i swear to God, I don't know what's more secretive: where the Nogs put their shit, or what Scientologists do to their own people. 

[quiversR4hunting]

Mike had to know what was going to coming because of what he did in the past. All of his stories had me thinking of the "normal" people that got out, how do they deal with the harassment? Did they even know that is what their "church" would do? I am going to suspect some of the normal people that left won't talk because they don't want the harrassment. Just a guess. 

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

I've read that Hubbard stole the concept from a pagan who used a cross "x'ed out" to show contempt for Christianity. 

That might be Aleister Crowley (google him because he's sort of interesting and was originally Plymouth Brethren) and the Rosy Cross.

[seattlechic]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

That might be Aleister Crowley (google him because he's sort of interesting and was originally Plymouth Brethren) and the Rosy Cross.

Ooooooh gol 'ol Crowley... he is indeed interesting. Damien Echols was a big fan of his (note: I believe Echols to be innocent).

[THERetroGamerNY]

6 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

It infuriates me as a Christian, too. 

I've read that Hubbard stole the concept from a pagan who used a cross "x'ed out" to show contempt for Christianity. 

Hence my fury: to the seeker, Scientology presents itself as a christian organization. Despicable. 

You know, it's not even a good use of the cross. It's just an odd, cheap rip-off clearly designed to try and normalize Scientology in mainstream eyes.

For those who need a reference, the official cross is this symbol:

In the theology it's described as an 8-point star (representative of 8 values). So, being a star should give it a more equal length all around. Hubbard says that the bottom is longer because it shows the person "ascending".

Puleeeze.

The original claims of the cross being a Crowley inspired thing came from a University of California study that documented all the occultic references and inspirations found in Scientology.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/nr.2012.15.3.91?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Urban's inventory of all the occult influences is an interesting read, and I found it worth the cost, but it basically boils down to this: Hubbard's imagination was rich with a LOT of pop culture references and symbols from other religions. I think he originally had a basic 8-point star, and then just rather shrewdly extended it a touch to make it look more commonplace and mainstream - not so much because of disdain for Christianity.

[Palimpsest]

18 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Hubbard's imagination was rich with a LOT of pop culture references and symbols from other religions. I think he originally had a basic 8-point star, and then just rather shrewdly extended it a touch to make it look more commonplace and mainstream - not so much because of disdain for Christianity.

Yep.  IIRC, L. Ron started slapping the Co$ cross on buildings and uniforms in the late '60s, after challenges in the UK, to make believe that Scientology was a "religion" vaguely associated with Jesus.

And, for the record, Co$ regards Jesus as one of many goodish teachers that form a basis of the psuedo-scientific pseudo-religious "thing" that is Scientology.  Scientology is NOT Christian.

[Howl]

This series will damage Co$.  It's too raw, has too much documentary footage for people to let it slide by.  The damage will be that people will have seen it and will warn away family, extended family and friends.  Even having read books about Co$, reading Tony Ortega now and again, it's still shocking.  The audio of Mike Rinder being verbally attacked by his ex wife, mini mob of  various Co$ David Miscavige henchmen and women, his daughter and his brother -- that was disturbing.  His ex wife was screaming and cursing him -- I mean shrieking.  They had no idea he was on the phone with BBC journo John Sweeney, who was recording audio of the whole thing.  

[K'Z'K]

An 8-point star would look like an asterisk, good for alerting people to footnotes and fine print. It would be an appropriate symbol, unlike the "ha! made you think we're a real church!" thing they're using now.

That and one a.r.s. nickname for Miscavige was (*)

(*) is crude ASCII art.

Very crude.  

And appropriate.

 

Hi OSA!

 

[quiversR4hunting]

Tom Cruise once said that CO$ would not replace a person's religion (Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, etc) but compliment it. IIRC, He went on to say that Kati could still be Catholic and a CO$.

Yeah. We all know that is BS! 

[lilwriter85]

1 hour ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Tom Cruise once said that CO$ would not replace a person's religion (Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, etc) but compliment it. IIRC, He went on to say that Kati could still be Catholic and a CO$.

Yeah. We all know that is BS! 

I remember Kirstie Alley saying similar things about how you could be _______ and Scientologist.

[Peas n carrots]

Oh guyyyzzz...look what I found in NYC today! The org that hooked Leah Remini and her family



I wanted to go in but I was worried no one would see me again!