Doug's Women And Children First Claim

[Guest Anonymous]

"Essentially, the whole patriarchy movement is looking for some kind of Utopia. Utopia doesn't exist."

This. The obsession with the past for these people fascinates me too. I don't understand it. I'm a history buff, so I enjoy reading and learning about history. But, damn, life was HARD back in the day. People worked themselves literally to death just trying to keep a roof over their family's heads and food in their bellies. Who would really want things to go back the way they were before modern medicine, when a sore throat could kill you in a matter of days because of no antibiotics? I just don't understand what these fundie people think would be soooo much better about living in the type of conditions that existed years ago? I'm thankful every day that my ancestors were obviously hardy enough people that they were able to survive the rigors of life in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.

Or when appendicitis was a death sentence because anyone unkucky to have their appendix burst, faced a protracted and ugly death from peritonitis.

[emmiedahl]

If I recall correctly, when the Titanic sank it was not "women and children first" but "rich women and children first." The poor women and children got to sink with the ship while the wealthy men fought over the remaining lifeboat seats. Apparently they don't count.

[Fluffy-Boo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Doug the same man who claimed that women should martyr themselves in the case of an ectopic pregnancy? If so, I'm not really sure he's qualified to speak on chivalry.

[Guest Anonymous]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Doug the same man who claimed that women should martyr themselves in the case of an ectopic pregnancy? If so, I'm not really sure he's qualified to speak on chivalry.

Yes, he is and no, he's not.

[jockosmom]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Doug the same man who claimed that women should martyr themselves in the case of an ectopic pregnancy? If so, I'm not really sure he's qualified to speak on chivalry.

What??!! He actually thinks if a woman has an ectopic pregnancy she should just . . . die? What about her other gazillion children she already has? Leave them motherless for the sake of a pregnancy that was never viable to begin with? What an asshole!

[Trynn]

What??!! He actually thinks if a woman has an ectopic pregnancy she should just . . . die? What about her other gazillion children she already has? Leave them motherless for the sake of a pregnancy that was never viable to begin with? What an asshole!

I know! There would be argument if there was a possibility the child might live, but if there's no chance of that whatsoever, what is the point in the mother dying? What a douche.

[bananacat]

If I recall correctly, when the Titanic sank it was not "women and children first" but "rich women and children first." The poor women and children got to sink with the ship while the wealthy men fought over the remaining lifeboat seats. Apparently they don't count.

Fundies will live in desperate poverty, sleep on heaps on floor, wear handmade or thrift store clothes, but still manage to convince themselves that in a previous era, they would have all belonged to the highest class, despite those eras having more people in the lowest classes than we do now. For some reason they never imagine that they would be in the peasant class, even though many of them currently living in it. It's all fancy Victorian gowns and strolls down a country lane with a pretty parasol, and never working 12 hours a day scrubbing pots in someone else's mansion or sewing clothes in a crowded, dirty, unsafe factory.

[Austin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Doug the same man who claimed that women should martyr themselves in the case of an ectopic pregnancy? If so, I'm not really sure he's qualified to speak on chivalry.

Oh, yes, ladies and gents, that's our Dougie.

IMAGO DEI: The Life of the Mother Exception We admit that a serious medical condition exists whenever a woman is diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy. In very rare cases, ectopic pregnancy has resulted in a live birth. Some respected publications put the odds at 60 million to 1. It is always life threatening whenever the embryo attaches to the fallopian tube. There is no medical record of a live birth of an ectopic tubal pregnancy. This diagnosis requires medical intervention in an attempt to successfully treat TWO patients . . . the mother AND the child, otherwise both will perish. To date our medical knowledge and technology is inadequate to save the child. It is estimated that we are just a few years away from the development of an ectogenic womb that may permit the successful treatment of this tragic case.

Does this mean that all approaches to the treatment of an ectopic tubal pregnancy are in keeping with the biblical doctrine of imago Dei? Sadly, no. Many physicians administer the abortifacient drug called methotrexate to patients with early tubal ectopic pregnancies. The object is to avoid the more serious complications that can come from the invasive surgery which removes a section of the fallopian tube containing the dead or dying child and renders the associated ovary sterile. A problem exists when there are multiple fertilized embryos which have successfully implanted in the uterus and would be aborted in the attempt to promote spontaneous regression of the dead fetus. This is a well documented medical scenario. This would entail material participation in the death of innocent human life. The official position statement of the Association of Pro-life Physicians says this, “It is only ethical to remove the tubal pregnancy if spontaneous resolution does not occur after watchful waiting and if the physician is 100% certain that there are no twins. At this point, the embryo in the fallopian tube is likely to be dead and, even if not, the death is unavoidable and unintentional, and the procedure is necessary to save the life of the mother. **In conclusion, there are no occasions in which the intentional killing of the pre-born child is justified.â€

http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/d ... 8/06/3854/

[slickcat79]

A problem exists when there are multiple fertilized embryos which have successfully implanted in the uterus and would be aborted in the attempt to promote spontaneous regression of the dead fetus. This is a well documented medical scenario.

Um, seriously? The chances of having an ectopic pregnancy are only something like 1.5%. How often are you honestly going to have an ectopic pregnancy as part of a set of multiples? Even if it happened in every ectopic pregnancy, how is that worth the mother's life? Plus if she dies, the remaining twin is also going to die, so that entire argument is monumentally stupid. Possibly even more stupid than suggesting a woman should be forced to martyr herself for an embryo in the first place.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

COnsidering that the boats held on average over a thousand people and there were twenty boats, most of the passengers probably could have survived.

If there had been less lifeboats, it would have made sense to load them first with families with children, the aged and infirmed. There appears to have been enough lifeboats so the idea of women before men actually appears to have unnecessarily cost people their lives.

Just reiterating what a few other people have -- there definitely was not enough life boats on the Titanic to carry everyone. Not certain where you're getting the 1,000 people per boat statistic. (!) Plenty of lifeboats were lowered half-full and more lives could have been saved but there were only roughly enough life boat seats to carry about half of the ship's maximum capacity. The Titanic disaster is actually what helped push through legislation mandating that ships had to carry enough operational life boats for everyone.

I thought the movie actually portrayed the confusion over what was actually happening/the seriousness of the situation in the beginning very well. Even in third class, people weren't initially clamoring to get into life boats because the Titanic was truly thought to be unsinkable.

/was a Titanic nerd growing up

//in awe of the poster who broke down the statistics 'tho

[Fluffy-Boo]

Doug is obviously influencing his little realm. Has anyone seen this post by a female fundie blogger?

http://inashoe.com/2008/06/ectopic-preg ... y-of-life/

The conclusion is astounding. Moreover, it's just plain dangerous and I have a hard time believing a mother of several children would abandon her family to die a martyr's death for the Pro-Life principle.

[Visionoyahweh]

Fundies will live in desperate poverty, sleep on heaps on floor, wear handmade or thrift store clothes, but still manage to convince themselves that in a previous era, they would have all belonged to the highest class, despite those eras having more people in the lowest classes than we do now. For some reason they never imagine that they would be in the peasant class, even though many of them currently living in it. It's all fancy Victorian gowns and strolls down a country lane with a pretty parasol, and never working 12 hours a day scrubbing pots in someone else's mansion or sewing clothes in a crowded, dirty, unsafe factory.

THIS.

99.99999999999999999999999999% of girls didn't get a 'radiant girlhood' with tea parties, Doug. They went to work, 18 hours a day, in horrible unsafe conditions. Then, younger than you would think, they went to work on their backs.

I'd like to see Doug's 'women turned into hopeless prostitutes by the patriarchy' history tour. I'd actually pay for that! ;)

[gustava]

Fundies will live in desperate poverty, sleep on heaps on floor, wear handmade or thrift store clothes, but still manage to convince themselves that in a previous era, they would have all belonged to the highest class, despite those eras having more people in the lowest classes than we do now. For some reason they never imagine that they would be in the peasant class, even though many of them currently living in it. It's all fancy Victorian gowns and strolls down a country lane with a pretty parasol, and never working 12 hours a day scrubbing pots in someone else's mansion or sewing clothes in a crowded, dirty, unsafe factory.

And that's why, when they vote, they tend to vote against their own interests. Hello, Rick Perry.

[DamnPrecious]

A uterus is replaceable. That is all these women are. The new uterus will probabaly be younger and prettier too.

[debrand]

I wrote that right before bed so I accidentally misread the website. Sorry about that. :oops:

[emmiedahl]

I consider myself pro-choice when it comes to other people's bodies but pro-life when it comes to my own body. That is, I respect other women's legal right to make decisions regarding their body and I feel no need to pass judgment on their decisions, but I personally want to nurture and raise whatever fetuses happen to implant in my uterus.

In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, I see it as: the fetus is nonviable, so I need to preserve my own health. Having an ectopic pregnancy removed is no more an elective abortion than having the products of conception removed from my uterus after a missed miscarriage. Regardless of what I do, there is no possibility of me walking out of that hospital with a live infant. Where is the freaking moral dilemma here? The inashoe post was tl;dr, but I am seriously questioning her sanity.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

I wrote that right before bed so I accidentally misread the website. Sorry about that. :oops:

lol it's all good. ;) I was like...those would have to be some pretty big lifeboats! (for the time anyway - I think lifeboats these days are that big?)

[slickcat79]

Doug is obviously influencing his little realm. Has anyone seen this post by a female fundie blogger?

http://inashoe.com/2008/06/ectopic-preg ... y-of-life/

The conclusion is astounding. Moreover, it's just plain dangerous and I have a hard time believing a mother of several children would abandon her family to die a martyr's death for the Pro-Life principle.

Kim is awful. She's the one who literally stacks her children on costco shelves to sleep. She's actually advocating a "watch and wait" attitude to ectopic pregnancy, where you have your doctor monitor you while you wait for your tube to rupture (or the small chance that you will miscarry naturally) :doh: In what universe is that ever a good idea? Yes, you might survive it, especially if you are in the hospital being watched by the doctor, but at best it will be the most excruciatingly painful experience of your life, accompanied by significant blood loss and risky surgery. I would even say that if you want to make that decision for your own self and by some miracle your doctor will support you in it, then you guys should go for it. But trying to convince other women to do the same because there's not a 100% chance that you'll die from it is unconscionable.

Even trying to see it from a fundie perspective, it looks like a horrible option. Besides the fact that you're giving no consideration to the other children you might have who need you, allowing the tube to rupture means you're down one tube. Your chances of conceiving future arrows just went waaayy down. Plus, Kim is one of the ones who has no health insurance and relies on Samaritan Ministries to pay for her medical costs. It sucks to think about money in a situation like that, but a dose of methotrexate would cost nothing in comparison with days or weeks in the hospital under constant monitoring, likely followed by urgent surgery and expensive pain meds. Even if a woman wanted to go that route, what doctor would sign off on it, especially for a patient who's uninsured? It's amazing the amount of mental gymnastics and self-important pontificating these people will go through in the name of not killing baybeez.

Most of the comments are horrible too:

That’s crazy. I have always thought that there was no way a fetus could survive an ectopic pregnancy (I also have been pronouncing it egg-topic my whole life). I didn’t even know there was a chance of carrying the pregnancy to term.

I definitely have a different take on this now.

Sigh. These are the kinds of mensa members that VF was created for.

In the end, it took 5 weeks from diagnosis to letting go, all the while being diligent in keeping an eye on my white blood cells to monitor the presence of infection. I did end up almost bleeding to death……but still, I would not have done anything different.

So I guess I said all that to say I have learned that my doctor is not God and I will not allow myself to be scared anymore by statistics and rhetoric.

Wow...it's a damn shame that the pathetic nonGod doctor was there, trying to save your life against your wishes :roll:

[emmiedahl]

The one who almost bled to death is crazy.

You. Almost. Died. Because you did not take your doctor' advice.

And you still think s/he was trying to scare you.

[finleeport]

Doug reminds me of the moneychangers in Jerusalem. He's all big money, charging for salvation and commercials.

[koolmom]

Yeah, these people get me wound up to a special kind of crazy I wish I didn't ever have to visit...

My older sis had an ectopic pregnancy back in the mid-70's. She survived, lost an ovary and one of her tubes, only to be able to have a subsequent pregnancy some years later. I sure didn't see anyone take chances with her health, life or anything remotely connected to, to see to it she fully recovered. I can't see God wanting anything less...

[Patsy]

This comic from smbc-comics.com reminded me of this topic: