Turkish military attempting a coup

[Grimalkin]

30 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Imho Erdogan is a fool and  I don't like his policies at all and I don't think a Turkey governed by him is ready to be part of the EU, BUT he was democratically elected winning with a wide majority of consent for four legislatures, turks want him and his government. A coup to save democracy that is aimed to remove the democratically elected government? Are you joking? 

 

In a democracy there are three separated, balanced and independent powers: legislative, judiciary and executive.  The military is directly subordinate to the executive and to the other two. In no way military can be a grant of democracy. If they think that Erdogan is becoming more dictatorial a coup is nowhere near the democratic way to deal with it.

No. In the links below it's explained the political structure of Turkey. Military is fully submitted to executive power namely Erdogan and there's nothing strange if the executive power decides to change the heads of the military. 

www.invest.gov.tr/en-US/turkey/factsandfigures/Pages/LegalAndPoliticalStructure.aspxp

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Turkey

     I'm explaining what I am hearing on the news here. It surprised me and seems like it would be the other way around. I would ask if he were really democratically elected though.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

21 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

 

I'm not surprised this is happening at all. Even in 2007/2008 Erdogan was deeply unpopular and people spoke of a coup being likely if things continued the way they were. 

 

He won elections in 2015 with a wide margin. And both UN and EU recognised the elections as democratic despite the strong suspicions. 

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34694420

ETA sorry I don't understand why the link isn't live.

Turkey is negotiating with the EU to become an EU country a coup would hinder the already extremely difficult process and everyone knows it.

The military may be the moral depositary of Ataturk legacy but not in a constitutionally recognised way. It would be possible for them to intervene only breaching the democratic laws. This would be extremely problematic both for inernal and international reasons. 

[Grimalkin]

      

5 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

He won elections in 2015 with a wide margin. And both UN and EU recognised the elections as democratic despite the strong suspicions. 

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34694420

ETA sorry I don't understand why the link isn't live.

Turkey is negotiating with the EU to become an EU country a coup would hinder the already extremely difficult process and everyone knows it.

The military may be the moral depositary of Ataturk legacy but not in a constitutionally recognised way. It would be possible for them to intervene only breaching the democratic laws. This would be extremely problematic both for inernal and international reasons. 

      I had noticed a slight shift in the reporting. They touched on Turkey's negotiations to join the EU and how it won't be able to happen if the coup succeeded.

[SnazzyNazzy]

So, after following this for the past few hours...who is REALLY the bad guy here? I have been following for this since it started, and it seems like a giant flustercuck to me, to be honest. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

38 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I'm uncomfortable with a military taking control of a country and realize things could become pretty ugly, but honestly if a U.S. president acted the way Erdogan has and flouted the Constitution, I think some sort of removal would be warranted. 

WARNING: hypothetical situation ahead. Are you saying that should Trump win the election in November (it won't happen right? This is only hypothetical right?) and start doing some of the idiocies he promised you would approve of a military coup that would be in contrast with the democratic results of the election? 

The thing with democracy is that you can't claim it and then discard it when people's will is different from what you'd expect. 

Regarding Erdogan, I really despise him and find his policies extremely bothersome but if he is supported by people's consent I can't see how a military coup in this day and age would be in any way beneficial.

A bigger problem is the oppression of minorities, particularly the Kurds and the Armenians. The problem is way older than Erdogan. It started with with Ataturk and the Constitution that doesn't recognise minorities any autonomy. It's difficult to think that the coup of a military that claims to protect Ataturk's legacy would give them more freedom because Ataturk himself didn't. 

[MarblesMom]

At supper tonight, discussing the Turkey situation, I asked Mr MM "Ok, can you imagine OUR military turning on our government and just taking over...everything?!" (I always go the darkest places...)

He said NO WAY.

I have never claimed to be the brain trust of this forum.... someone smarter than me please explain why/how their military would do this and ours would not. 

(Not that a government overthrow is needed.... just wondering how this happens elsewhere.)

 

[Grimalkin]

1 hour ago, MarblesMom said:

At supper tonight, discussing the Turkey situation, I asked Mr MM "Ok, can you imagine OUR military turning on our government and just taking over...everything?!" (I always go the darkest places...)

He said NO WAY.

I have never claimed to be the brain trust of this forum.... someone smarter than me please explain why/how their military would do this and ours would not. 

(Not that a government overthrow is needed.... just wondering how this happens elsewhere.)

 

         The wiki link LaPG posted is helpful in understanding the basics. I posted another one:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk

posting LaPG's link

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Turkey

[Bethella]

40 minutes ago, MarblesMom said:

At supper tonight, discussing the Turkey situation, I asked Mr MM "Ok, can you imagine OUR military turning on our government and just taking over...everything?!" (I always go the darkest places...)

He said NO WAY.

I have never claimed to be the brain trust of this forum.... someone smarter than me please explain why/how their military would do this and ours would not. 

(Not that a government overthrow is needed.... just wondering how this happens elsewhere.)

 

I'm not an expert on this kind of stuff but I suspect it has to do with the histories of our respective countries, including an institutional mindset within the two militaries that affects their likelihood of committing a coup. America has never had a military coup while Turkey had three in the last half century or so (1960, 1971 and 1980) and maneuvered the removal of an Islamist Prime Minister in 1997 plus the fact that the modern republic was founded by Ataturk who was military (source wikipedia).

The US seems to have a national mindset that coups aren't necessary. People may have lost faith in the democratic process or have apathy about participation but we still believe at our core that the system of checks and balances will keep things under control and if things get too bad we just have to wait 4-8 years before voting someone else in to office. From what I know of people in the US military they are fairly ardent about their support of democracy. If it came down to it, I think we would have an impeachment or even widespread protests/civil disobedience to force a president out of office before we would have a coup here.

I don't know enough about Turkish history to make any generalizations but it appears that they (or at least some faction of their military) doesn't have that same level of trust. Some of the stuff I've been reading/hearing today suggests that the Turkish military sees itself as an enforcer of the secular nature of the country. They appear to intervene when they feel that the government is becoming too religious. On Wikipedia it talks about the military's "duties stemming from laws to protect the unchangeable characteristics of the Republic of Turkey." 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

It seems that the coup is failed or failing. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/16/whats-happened-in-turkey-first-hours-of-the-coup

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara

[fraurosena]

I'm reading reports that 1563 military have been arrested. Seems that the attempt has been thwarted.

[Gemini]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ibtimes.co.uk/turkeys-long-history-military-coups-1570941?client=safari#

It's not the first time the military have seized/attempted to control Turkey.  It does seems like they have the power to step in if they feel the country isn't being run properly, despite any democraticly voted in president. 

Time will tell what actually happened here tho. 

[caszandra]

Watching BBC News again this morning, from the breaking news bar -  104 coup plotters killed, Turkish PM says 2839 members of the army have been detained, 160 people are reported dead and more than 1000 injured during the coup attempt.

Edit. This is the link for the breaking news from the BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-36811357 The numbers above are not what the website has, the situation is too fluid for anyone to say what is correct at this time.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I haven't found any source that spells out the laws that would give the military this sort of power. It seems more something that used to happen thanks to the moral legacy of Ataturk being with them and thanks to the 4th article of the Constitution of Turkey 

Quote

The Article 4 declares the immovability of the founding principles of the Republic defined in the first three Articles and bans any proposals for their modification.

I've found this thesis discussed at Venice's Ca'Foscari University very interesting. I's titled "The role of the military throughout Turkish history". It's in Italian but if you are interested you can try to use Google translate. 

https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://dspace.unive.it/bitstream/handle/10579/2963/835476-1163290.pdf%3Fsequence%3D2&ved=0ahUKEwjrlaqc8_fNAhWBzRQKHczCCDkQFggyMAY&usg=AFQjCNFj1nOt3EjWSOvPSJ5_qxq2TeSo4Q&sig2=mTyh_MMzfNR87y-EpGK0Bg

I haven't had the time to read it all but it basically says that the legitimisation of the role of the military as the "guardian of the Republic" comes only from the historical role of the military in Turkey. 

Anyway this failed coup will have consequences difficult to foresee at the moment. Erdogan governed for so long with such a big consent basically because he managed to grant economical growth and economical stability. The economic situation though is strictly linked with investors' trust in turkish stability and with the economic partnership with the EU countries. A country that could be seized by a coup any day is not very reliable and international investors aren't going to appreciate it.  That's why Erdogan's reply will probably be ruthless. But it remains to be seen if he'll be able to regain international credibility and if there will be repercussions for his popularity. 

[nausicaa]

10 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

He won elections in 2015 with a wide margin. And both UN and EU recognised the elections as democratic despite the strong suspicions. 

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34694420

ETA sorry I don't understand why the link isn't live.

Turkey is negotiating with the EU to become an EU country a coup would hinder the already extremely difficult process and everyone knows it.

The military may be the moral depositary of Ataturk legacy but not in a constitutionally recognised way. It would be possible for them to intervene only breaching the democratic laws. This would be extremely problematic both for inernal and international reasons. 

If he won the elections fair and square by a wide margin, than he should be president, but he still needs to work within the framework of the Constitution.

I agree that this will hinder Turkey's efforts to join the EU. But I haven't ever met a Turkish citizen who was really enthusiastic about joining the EU. Most had no desire to join, and in my opinion the treatment of minorities, particularly Kurds and recognition of the Armenian Genocide, is what will thwart any of Turkey's EU ambitions. Recognition of the genocide or bigotry against Kurds is not going to happen anytime soon. People still can, and have been, thrown into jail just for criticizing it. 

 

[nausicaa]

10 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

WARNING: hypothetical situation ahead. Are you saying that should Trump win the election in November (it won't happen right? This is only hypothetical right?) and start doing some of the idiocies he promised you would approve of a military coup that would be in contrast with the democratic results of the election? 

The thing with democracy is that you can't claim it and then discard it when people's will is different from what you'd expect. 

Regarding Erdogan, I really despise him and find his policies extremely bothersome but if he is supported by people's consent I can't see how a military coup in this day and age would be in any way beneficial.

A bigger problem is the oppression of minorities, particularly the Kurds and the Armenians. The problem is way older than Erdogan. It started with with Ataturk and the Constitution that doesn't recognise minorities any autonomy. It's difficult to think that the coup of a military that claims to protect Ataturk's legacy would give them more freedom because Ataturk himself didn't. 

Completely hypothetical that is absolutely not going to happen in my country ():

If Trump were to win the election fair and square, he should be president. I agree, that is how democracy works.

But he is also gaining a position with a framework and limitations. He is not becoming king, much as he might like to believe it. We have a series of checks and balances that greatly limit the power of the executive branch for the very reason of avoiding a dictator taking control. If President Trump ( ) then began acting in violation of the Constitution, by suspending the First, Fourth, and Eighth amendments, dissolving the separation of church and state, and removing judges from the Supreme Court, then I believe it is perfectly valid to remove him. 

I would hope that our country would be able to do so via a peaceful impeachment. "Military coup" sounds scary and excessive, and I don't want to be flippant about something I haven't lived under. But at the same time, I can understand the Turkish military's side of this, especially since it occupies a different position than our military does. 

We are in complete agreement on the oppression of minorities. I don't believe that they will be better off whether it's Erdogan or martial law. Their position is terrible and Turkey's inability to progress on it is stubbornness turned self-sabotage, since it is crippling international relations and its goal to be viewed as a secular republic in the eyes of the west. 

[47of74]

Ugh, it pains me to see this all happening in Turkey.  I went there in 2012 and had a great time.  I have a lot of affection for the Turkish people. 

 

[Kleine Vampirin]

The rumors flying around from friends on social media seems to have calmed down a bit now but communications are still patchy. Those in Turkey are now generally saying that things have quietened down a bit (relatively speaking). They're also aware of 'some kind of issue going on with the States' - I think this is to do with flights being cancelled - and some saying 'Russia are telling their people to go home'. Media reports of at least 265 dead and over 1440 wounded, I can't begin to imagine what's it like for them :-(