Armed Protesters take over Oregon Federal Wildlife Refuge

[CTRLZero]

17 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Shawna Cox thinks EVERYBODY is in a conspiracy against her.

Thanks for posting the link.  Believe it or not, this answer/counter-claim actually makes more sense than 99.9% of other sovereign citizen pleadings I've had the good fortune to slog through.  Most of them are filled with quasi-religious, rambling assessments of other court cases, etc.  One attempted to trace his lineage from earth's creation (amoeba, crawled out from the sea, etc.).  That was a long document!   I loved the devilish amount Shawna is requesting in damages, and that she is reserving the right for up to ten billion "next friends" to assist her. 

[Howl]

High Country News published an essay by Hal Herring on Feb. 12th, titled, Can we make some sense of this Malheur mess?   Herring, a writer who lives in a small Montana town, visited the refuge to talk to the occupiers.  His writing proves to me that sometimes words wielded deftly can paint a more precise and amazing picture than a thousand strokes of a paintbrush.  hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-public-lands-essay

Settle in and read all the way to the end to understand what the occupiers didn't about the ultimate end game for divesting public lands. 

Oddly (to me at least) I feel a sadness tinged with grief when I contemplate the future for the occupiers who are under Federal indictment.  They thought their cause was just, it was important to sacrifice, but not one of them, not a single one of them, is prepared for the shit storm raining down on their lives in the form of imprisonment for years, financial ruin, shattered dreams, shattered families, years locked away in prison that they will NEVER get back.  They drank deeply of the Kool Aid for whatever reason (ignorance, lack of critical thinking skills, naiveté, financial struggles, noble cause) thinking their personal sacrifice will being immense changes, but the only immense changes are bearing down on them like a freight train and they are tied to the tracks.  It is at some level a tragedy, the kind that routinely befalls fanatics, but a tragedy non the less.  They aren't sympathetic people, and I don't sympathize with them, but I feel sad about it for reasons I don't fully understand.  Maybe it is that they truly believed there would be no repercussions for their actions, because they were too strong and the  FBI was too intimidated to act and that life would continue as usual after they participated in the Noble Endeavor -- that they would be led and protected by God.  

 

[AmazonGrace]

1 hour ago, CTRLZero said:

Thanks for posting the link.  Believe it or not, this answer/counter-claim actually makes more sense than 99.9% of other sovereign citizen pleadings I've had the good fortune to slog through.  Most of them are filled with quasi-religious, rambling assessments of other court cases, etc.  One attempted to trace his lineage from earth's creation (amoeba, crawled out from the sea, etc.).  That was a long document!   I loved the devilish amount Shawna is requesting in damages, and that she is reserving the right for up to ten billion "next friends" to assist her. 

She has more friends than the whole population of living humans in the world at the moment. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@SpoonfulOSugar, thanks for the link to the pdf of Shawna Cox's cross complaint! Wow. That was 8 pages of interesting. Reading a few quotes or excerpts is never the same as reading the complete ball of crazy. 

@Howl, that article from High Country News was really good. Thanks! I've been introduced to some good news sources in this thread. 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Must read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/the-11-sickest-burns-from-the-federal-complaint-against-cliven-bundy/

[DaisyD]

 for her creative use of "defrauded".

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand - the Oregon licensing board is investigating Constitutional Sheriff Palmer.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/state_police_board_seeks_inves.html#incart_big-photo

[Howl]

There are going to be some interesting Sheriff's races during the next election cycle in John Day and Burns.  

Shawna Cox's filing is pure Sovereign Citizen.  The only good thing about Sovereign Citizens from my perspective is that I've now learned to spell 'sovereign' correctly. 

LaVoy Finicum's flight at the road block was an attempt to 'get to the Sheriff'.   In this instance, the sheriff was Sheriff Palmer in John Day.  Sovereign Citizens believe that the Sheriff is the highest, and only legitimate authority. 

Here's a link to a  succinct  overview of Sovereign Citizen beliefs titled Bogus Legal Theory of Sovereign Citizen.   This particular Web site is likely a preemptive strike to make people realize that a Sovereign Citizen defense won't fly in Missouri Municipal Court, but I'm sure courts everywhere are struggling with it. 

court.rchp.com/representing-yourself-in-court/bogus-legal-theory-of-sovereign-citizen/

What caught my eye relative to the LaVoy Finnicum episode was this

Quote

 

Sovereigns citizens believe among other things that an illegitimate, usurper federal government has taken over, and that they don’t have to pay taxes, pull over their cars for police or obey any other law they don’t like. 

Sovereign Citizens believe that the County Sheriff is the most powerful law-enforcement officer in the country, with authority superior to that of any federal agent, elected official or local law-enforcement official. 

 

So, this all leaves me wondering if Cliven Bundy considered himself a Sovereign Citizen and this led to the original standoff in 2014, or if he was involved with other strains of militia crazy from the Sagebrush Rebellion and the Sovereign Citizen influence came when Sovereign Citizens got to the Bundy standoff and or the Malheur Occupation and started inoculating ("educating" in their parlance) others with these toxic beliefs.  

Sovereign Citizens also established a presence in Burns by forming a  Committee of Safety early on in the occupation, which I'm sure does not make anyone in Burns feel safer. 

As all the cases wind through the courts, it will be interesting who tries to do a Sovereign Citizen defense, and who just tries to save their ass. 

 

 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@Howl, I liked this part from that Bogus Legal Theory of Sovereign Citizen link.

Quote (my bold)

"For example, the common law crime of Apostacy, the ancient criminal offence of atheism or not being Christian, is not valid in the United States. The Constitutions of all 50 states and the Federal Government provide freedom of religion which superseded the former common law regarding Apostacy. Just because a common law existed and was valid yesterday, does not make it valid today, it depends upon the actions of legislatures and the courts."

And I want to cross stitch this one and send it to Shawna Cox:

Quote

"Even if you consider the justice system a game, like all games, there are rules and to the win the game, you must learn the rules and how to apply them."  

(Too bad both quotes have run-on sentences in them.)

5 hours ago, Howl said:

snipped

The only good thing about Sovereign Citizens from my perspective is that I've now learned to spell 'sovereign' correctly.

snipped

100% agreed!!

[anniebgood]

On February 18, 2016 at 9:39 AM, AmazonGrace said:

She has more friends than the whole population of living humans in the world at the moment. 

I wonder what level OT she is? one billion or so?

[DaisyD]

OT but have you seen the scientology commercials? 

[anniebgood]

2 hours ago, daisyd681 said:

OT but have you seen the scientology commercials? 

I avoid $ci things like a fiend, though I read Mike Rinder's blog. I missed the Grammy commercials because I was watching Nat Geo.

 

[DaisyD]

They had one during the super bowl. I've seen it on since too.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Washington Post on Pete Santilli:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/02/20/after-the-oregon-occupation-one-of-the-people-arrested-argues-he-was-there-as-a-journalist/

I am wholly of the opinion that he does not meet the standards to be a journalist.  One of those interviewed mentioned objectivity and ethics.

"Shock jock" does not include incitement.  Plus, I believe several reporters have found that he had advance knowledge.  Finally, he's identified people as FBI agents and narcs (apparently both in Nevada and Oregon.)  He has no leg to stand on, IMNSHO.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Weekend follow-up - federal prosecutors are saying more charges and more defendants may be to come:

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/federal_prosecutors_signal_pot.html#incart_2box

[Howl]

Interesting times ahead.   I thought it was especially interesting that the defendants' attorneys want the FBI to stop collecting evidence until they can have their own investigators there to observe the FBI.  Like that's going to happen. 

 I would imagine that many "patriots" and gas-bagging members of rump militias are secretly glad they didn't answer the call to arms at the occupation and instead are sitting snug in their bunkers.  Even they realize, in hindsight, that manic flag waving, posturing, waving pocket constitutions, big talk on social media,  and brandishing weapons while occupying a federal facility was an  incredibly stupid idea.  Apparently, all the camo in the world won't make you invisible to a federal indictment. 

For those who haven't yet been charged, must be awful to be hanging around waiting........ 

Interesting article on another incident that happened in May 2014, on BLM land in Recapture Canyon near Blanding, in southeastern Utah.  The very small towns in this area (Monticello, Blanding and Bluff) are all old Mormon communities. 

Feds charge five Utahns in Recapture Canyon protest ride

archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/news/58403975-78/canyon-ride-blm-lyman.html.csp

If you look at the photo gallery with the article, you'll notice that Ryan Bundy is riding one of the ATVs.  

The county commissioner for San Juan County, Utah and one other person were charged  because they publicized, organized and coordinated the event.  The county commissioner got 10 days in jail, 3 years probation, and a charge of almost $100,000 was assessed for restitution related to repairing damage  in the canyon.  Although they appealed, the judge would not grant a new trial.  This brief event is not comparable to the 40 + days of the occupation, but it gives you a sense of what the fall out might have been had they just gone to the refuge and demonstrated for a day.  However, it is similar in that the protesters showed up heavily armed and the BLM stood down for the most part.  

Meanwhile, in early December, 

Quote

 

FOX News in Salt Lake City  

A report prepared for a state commission over public lands has recommended that Utah's governor and attorney general consider suing the federal government for control of public lands within the state.

The report, prepared by lawyers hired by the Commission for the Stewardship of Public Lands, "recommends that the Commission and Legislature urge the Governor and the Attorney General of the State of Utah to consider instituting litigation against the United States of America under the Original Jurisdiction of the United States Supreme Court."

 

Heck, the legal costs would only be about $14 million, so why not just go ahead and do it?

[AmazonGrace]

Peaceful protests my ass:

 

WARDEN TO FINICUM GUNMEN:BEG FOR AN INDICTMENT!

I don’tKnow for Sure, but I will bet that even now “patriots” are pol-

ishing  30-06  rounds (I know ex-military types highly proficient 

 with the50 caliber round) vowing to “make a name for themselves,

”eager for history to record them as “the man who took the shooters down.”

 

So, if I was a member of the crew who “took down” LaVoy Finicum. I

would know this: no matter where you hide, you and your families

 will be exposed.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/299807198/WARDEN-ADVICE-TO-FINICUM-GUNMEN

[Howl]

@AmazonGrace, awesome find!  Shawna Cox, an eyewitness at the Finicum shooting, said Finicum was shouting Shoot me! multiple times at both traffic stops before he was actually, um, shot.  Nobody blathering on about how he was murdered seems to think this is worthy of mention in the events surrounding his death.  

These eejits also seem to not have gotten the message that social media can get you in trouble.  If you are posting inflammatory statements that seem to be inciting people to harm federal employees, it could create legal problems in your life. 

However, Roy Warden intimately  knows his constituency and has posted a list outlining proper etiquette for protesters, including a requirement to carry long guns slung across the back; no white supremacist or neo-Nazi crap; no recruitment efforts for your rump militia group; No, just NO if you can't stop fondling your weapon! in public;  no brandishing of guns (which just seems like a logical extension of fondling to me) and stay on the damn sidewalk already.  In other words, he knows this will be a seriously impulsive,  oppositional/defiant and armed ADHD group who will collectively have trouble staying on task and on topic. Taking bets on how much camo will be on offer.  This will be another little gift to the FBI, who will be photographing, inventorying and identifying who shows up, just in case the shit hits the fan later. 

scribd.com/doc/299601800/RULES-OF-CONDUCT-AT-JUSTICE-FOR-LAVOY-RALLY

Someone needs to post a facebook accusation that Roy Warden is an agent provocateur.

[Howl]

A bit more skull duggery from Ammon Bundy, who took a page out of the playbook from The Center for Medical Progress and created a "heavily edited" and inflammatory (!) propaganda video back in December, purporting to show that BLM deliberately set fires and deliberately let them burn out of control to destroy ranchers' properties in Oregon.  This video was picked up and posted on FaceBook recently  by the American Lands Council, whose focus is on returning all federal lands to the states. 

Quote

 

Paul Rolly: Ammon Bundy’s handiwork behind anti-BLM fire video

sltrib.com/home/3504080-155/rolly-ammon-bundys-handiwork-behind-anti-blm

[Paul Rolly] wrote last week about a video posted on Facebook by the American Lands Council (ALC) that alleges the Bureau of Land Management deliberately started fires, then carelessly let them rage out of control, killing livestock and destroying ranchers' property in Oregon.

The video was misleading, since news stories and subsequent BLM reports of the 2012 blaze show it was lightning-caused, fueled by heavy dry underbrush and desperately fought by federal, state and area firefighters.

Here's the rest of the story: It was a rip-off of a heavily edited propaganda video produced in December by Ammon Bundy.

 

What a bunch of sleazy, sleazy f*cks.  

[SpoonfulOSugar]

I'm just going to leave this FB post here.  (Not linking for obv reasons.)

[SpoonfulOSugar]

This article made me smile:

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregon-bird-expert-goes-back-to-normal-in-harney-county-with-fbi-guests/

All the nonsense about "we didn't threaten ANYBODY" is belied by stories like this one.

Arraignments this morning.  Odalis Sharp is at the courthouse singing and pontificating.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

The arraignments went pro forma, as far as I read:

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/federal_judge_presses_prosecut.html#incart_big-photo

Quote

 

Federal prosecutors said they expect a grand jury to return two superseding indictments against all 25 defendants in the case.

The first one is expected in mid-March to early April that will add all 25 defendants under one indictment. They are now charged under two separate indictments. The first superseding indictment may include some "modification'' to the charges, Assistant U.S. Attorney Ethan Knight said.

A second superseding indictment might be returned in 90 days, Knight told the court -  drawing a rebuke from the judge.

"Ninety days is simply beyond belief to me,'' Brown said. She urged the U.S. Attorney's office to get the resources it needs to bring charges against the defendants sooner.

 

Some of the quotes entertain me . . . . "presumption of innocence" v. pre-trial confinement.  *snerk*

Here's the OPB version:

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/prosecution-plans-to-bring-more-charges-against-bundys/

 

Quote

Prosecutors estimate they’ll be providing around 300 to 500 FBI reports in the discovery. 

ETA:  Here's the WaPo version:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/02/24/fbi-finishes-clearing-oregon-refuge-as-authorities-say-more-people-could-be-charged-for-the-occupation/?tid=ss_tw

[AmazonGrace]

They are such victims in all of this: 

Quote

 

"It's difficult to understand the presumption of innocence when I've spent the last month in a jail cell and led around in chains wherever I go,'' Payne said.

Brown said she understood his concerns, but noted that his detention was a separate matter.

Co-defendant Ryan Bundy, standing beside his lawyer in the jury box, grabbed hold of a wireless microphone that the lawyers were passing from one to another and told the court that he shared the same reservation. He is Ammon Bundy's older brother.

"We're being treated as we're guilty,'' he said. "So I don't understand the presumption of innocence.''

Co-defendant Jason Patrick, when asked if he understood his constitutional rights, replied, "I understand I have no rights at all. You're the federal government. You're going to do whatever you want.''

And David Fry, the last to surrender to federal officers on Feb. 11, joined in, "It's weird - innocent until proven guilty - shackled up.''

 

 

[Howl]

Well, because the Bundy boys have been raised to believe that there are no repercussions for breaking Federal laws, I'm sure ALL of this comes as a big surprise.  The lawyers are gonna be 'splainin a lot to their clients. 

I bet Ammon Bundy has God on speed dial and can't figure out why all his calls are going to voice mail. 

[Howl]

My impression was that Mel Bundy was briefly at the occupation early on, but made no public or social medial comments. 

Text of recent Mel Bundy tweet: 

Quote

I've been informed the blm with contract thieves are steeling my parents catle.  I have not confirmed it. We can use all eyes and ears at this time. Sources tell me they are taking the cows off the ranch and transporting them into Arizona and then into Utah.  People can recognize the VO brand on the left hip. Thanks

I found this on TheFogBow.com ("falsehoods unchallenged only fester and grow") whose SovCits forcibly occupy Malheur Wildlife Refuge thread is currently running over 500 pages.   As one commenter noted, that they don't know if cattle are being rounded up means the Feds characterization of how they let their cattle herd roam free over a very large area is correct.  However, cattle do need water on a daily basis, so if you know where they go  for water, you can find the cows.  My understanding is that the actual Bundy ranch is only 160 acres, but I can't confirm that. However, 160 acres is significant in that when lands (often tribal lands) out west were being sold or given to settlers, 160 acres was the typical tract amount. 

The history leading up to the Bundy Ranch standoff is a long and complicated one, but prior to the standoff, BLM was buying up existing grazing allotments to create protected habitat for endangered species, like the desert tortoise.  

I suspect the jailing of the occupation leaders, the arrest and jailing of Cliven Bundy and Federal indictments raining down like spring rain has had a chilling effect now that it's becoming obvious that camo bravado comes with a very, very steep price. 

And Roy Warden?  What a freaking hate-filled,  whack-job nutcase.  I think that covers all the bases.  He's been spraying crazy, hate-filled racist spittle in AZ for over 10 years.