Fundie Fathers And Their Daughter's Vaginas

[debrand]

I have no link, just my thoughts. Lately, I've been thinking about how creepy the obsession with virginity is in the fundie culture.

Fathers convince their young daughters to pledge their hearts and virginity to them. That sounds like emotional incest. How is a preteen supposed to understand the relevance of her promise to wait? At 21, I was far different than I was at 13. It would have been insane to expect me to keep a promise I made as a very young teen.

After the girl reaches adulthood, it is none of the father's business who she sleeps with. Being overly concerned that your daughter has or doesn't have a sex life sounds creepy. There is nothing wrong with a young woman deciding to remain a virgin until her wedding night, but it is not her father's place to ensure that she does.

Remember Kristin whose father placed the ring on her finger? Some of the customs that have arisen because of the fundie need to control young women's sexuality have a very incestuous overtone.

Chrisitan bloggers try to romanticize the issue and I want to destroy that romance. For any fundie woman reading this....it's disgusting and gross for your father to be concerned with your vagina. Sorry about the rant. It's very early here and I woke up thinking about this. LOL

I know that most of you agree that the father shouldn't control his daughter but are you as grossed out by the father/daughter purity movement as I am? I don't get how they don't understand how weird and sick all of this sounds. Apparently, this type of father/daughter relationship is found in the book that the movie, Courageous is based upon, so this type of thinking is moving into mainstream Christiainty

If you have any links explaining why this type of thinking is perverted and wrong, I'd love to read them. Surely, this can't be the only site that points out how weird the fundie obsession with purity is.

[brashchick]

For what is it worth, I have always considered it disgusting and definately consider it emotional and covert incest. At a bare minimum, it is intrusive into a matter that is extremely private and, once the daughter is an adult, NONE of the father's (or mother's for that matter) business. It's nasty.

[debrand]

Father's should not own their daughter's sexuality. Neither should men define what is proper and improper sexual behavior for women.

Fundies remove what is beautiful in Christianity, the belief that someone can start again fresh. Even if a single person has sex, they can get forgiveness and begin new. When fundies act as if one instance of sex ruins a young person forever, they are going against their own beliefs.

[Sola]

I find it quite creepy, and psychologically unsound. It seems to me that it is setting up the woman to fall, when she gets married. Most little girls adore their dads but this takes it way too far. This adoration runs so deep that the father is seen as a spouse (although without the sex involved) to these unmarried girls. What happens when she does marry and her husband is nothing like her father? I guess she just has to bury that, smile and submit. Not healthy in anyway.

Another thing that I find quite bizarre is how the girl is supposed to suppress any emerging sexuality and libido and then flick it on with a switch on wedding night. If she has been successful in doing that, I can't imagine how difficult it must be to switch it all back on again and enjoy.

What is it with fundies and their sex obsessions anyway? I am quite sure that I never thought about or spoke about sex as often as these fundies do when I was a young woman.

[atheistjd]

I am definitely as creeped out as you. Also, based on a few fundie-lite wedding I have been to where there were entire portions of the ceremony a) explaining how the bride's purity ring meant she was a virgin and then b) having the father (who was in a few of these instances performing the marriage as well, natch) take the ring give it to the husband as a token of proof that his daughter was a virgin and that he had been an adequate keeper of said virginity and THEN "giving her away" ( brings a whole new level of ewwww to that already a smidge ew tradition, huh?), I would say it has already moved into more "mainstream" Christianity.

My now-husband, then live-in bf, who had no exposure to anything of the sort in his background, looked at me like, what are these people doing and when did I leave the planet earth during these parts of the weddings.

Needless to say, we ended up walking each other down the aisle - no purity included in the package ;)

[Joykins]

This is actually a vestige of the old patriarchy, where a man's ownership of his daughter's sexuality (until her marriage) was explicit. A virgin daughter is a marriageable daughter; a non-virgin daughter is damaged goods and (according to the Old Testament law, anyway) could, at the whim of her husband, be killed for being non-prime wife material. A man who raped a virgin has to marry her (you break it you bought it) and pay her dad extra bride price. Which is gross even if you're living in a tent in 2000 BC, but the "emotional incest" angle didn't seem to be there as much. In modern people who should know better it is much more icky.

[atheistjd]

p.s. if you want proof it's more mainstream than it seems, see this link. some of these stories really squick me out (see comment 3)...

http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/chas ... do-with-it

[atheistjd]

OK, last contribution of the day - this one made me laugh :)

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stuffchristia ... rings.html

p.s. in case you can't tell, debrand, i have also spent some time thinking about, and being disturbed by, this whole mess :)

[debrand]

p.s. if you want proof it's more mainstream than it seems, see this link. some of these stories really squick me out (see comment 3)...

http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/chas ... do-with-it

From the site that you linked to:

I heard this really cute story once about a girl that was getting married and had always worn a purity ring given to her from her father.

So on her wedding day after her dad walked her down the aisle and was about to give her away she gave the ring back to him and told her dad that she had kept her promise.... gah!!

I get teary eyed typing this out! lol. I wish I would remember where I read this!!!

Not sure if any of this will relate.. but wow. what an amazing moment.

How do they not see this as inappropriate and why should the wedding guest give a damn about what she has or hasn't done sexually. It is none of their business. It sounds egotistical to tell a bunch of guests-who probably don't care- that you haven't had sex. Why should they care?

[Austin]

Count me in as squicked out by it, too. A female is no one's property at any time in her life, whether it be during childhood or adulthood. She cannot belong to either because human beings cannot be the property of someone else. Nor can their hymens.

I've also grown to view some very mainstream wedding traditions negatively as I've realized that their roots are in patriarchy.

[atheistjd]

From the site that you linked to:

How do they not see this as inappropriate and why should the wedding guest give a damn about what she has or hasn't done sexually. It is none of their business. It sounds egotistical to tell a bunch of guests-who probably don't care- that you haven't had sex. Why should they care?

To be fair, the most blatant ceremony I attended was one in which the bride had been engaged before - so I think they really did think the congregation would care and need to know, sadly :roll:

But yeah, that's what gets me - the involvement of a whole (usually HUGE) audience in this show that should be private and supposedly special. How is a pre-wedding sexual life, which is generally a pretty private matter between two people, somehow less special because said participants didn't announce to the world that they was about to "do it"? To me, the whole virginity show (be it a purity ring ceremony, purity ball, or creepy mid-wedding discussion of the hymen) is like bragging about how humble you are. "I am SO pure, this is such a PRIVATE moment, just between the TWO of us. DID YOU HEAR THAT, 300 WEDDING GUESTS?!?!? WE ARE GOING TO HAVE SEX TONIGHT - IN PRIVATE!!" :?

Yeesh. TMI fundies, TMI.

[twin2]

It's been a while, so I might be wrong on this, there was a fundie wedding earlier this year that was broadcast. I can't remember the name, but she was from Canada and wanted to be a doctor but her dad convinced her otherwise. Both families were ATI royalty as Sir Gothard made an appearance and gave them a sheepskin of fun for a wedding present. Anyway, IIRC, the groom's wedding band was made from his brides purity ring. Ugh, if transfer of authority wasn't icky enough, transfer of purity, yuck!

[Patsy]

Obsessed with sex is right. See fundies who don't kiss before marriage - they go on and on and fucking on about it, elbow each other wink wink nudge nudge at the wedding, "Everyone look at their FIRST KISS!", Dougie goes on an oh-so-modesty-preserving description of several paragraphs of that first kiss... and it's US, the ones who kiss, hold hands, fuck, have kids, before marriage, that are meant to be obsessed with sex? PLEASE.

[Sola]

I am definitely as creeped out as you. Also, based on a few fundie-lite wedding I have been to where there were entire portions of the ceremony a) explaining how the bride's purity ring meant she was a virgin and then b) having the father (who was in a few of these instances performing the marriage as well, natch) take the ring give it to the husband as a token of proof that his daughter was a virgin and that he had been an adequate keeper of said virginity and THEN "giving her away" ( brings a whole new level of ewwww to that already a smidge ew tradition, huh?), I would say it has already moved into more "mainstream" Christianity.

My now-husband, then live-in bf, who had no exposure to anything of the sort in his background, looked at me like, what are these people doing and when did I leave the planet earth during these parts of the weddings.

Needless to say, we ended up walking each other down the aisle - no purity included in the package ;)

They'll be placing a white sheet on the bed and hanging it out the next morning for all to see the 'proof' at this rate.

[maybeizfundie]

My parents have been conservative Christians since before I was born, but my dad never got into the whole "patriarch" thing. Just isn't the type. Don't think he could be if he tried. He's never had a desire to be anything but wholly egalitarian in his relationship with my mom, even during the times when they were travelling through groups that tended towards patriarchy.

They did teach us (all, my brother too) the moral values they adhered to, and that included their sexual ethic, which was essentially "Sex is good. Very, very good. Save it for marriage. We believe this is the safest and healthiest choice, as well as the most consistent with our faith" It was not obsessively hammered as The Most Important Thing. The choice to do so was ours and we were not lacking in information about the availability and efficacy of contraception, nor were our movements controlled in an effort to make the choice for us. And when one of my siblings chose not to follow what our parents believe, she was not rejected or shamed, but rather they opened their home to her and are helping her raise the resultant baby because she decided the baby-daddy wasn't someone she wanted to make a lifetime committment to.

They certainly didn't pick our spouses for us, and while there was a "giving away" at our weddings, it wasn't about sexual purity or handing us over into some new patriarchal clan. I think dh's side of the family (different culture) would have fainted dead away at the sex and purity talk that happens at some of these weddings. So it wasn't a main theme of our wedding, for sure.

With that family background, I agree with y'all that there is something squicky about the father-daughter things. I do think that in many cases the intent is completely innocent, but it is a twisting or an idolization of an aspect of faith and that can be problematic, ranging anywhere from just plain silly to downright abusive.

[fundiefan]

It's been a while, so I might be wrong on this, there was a fundie wedding earlier this year that was broadcast. I can't remember the name, but she was from Canada and wanted to be a doctor but her dad convinced her otherwise. Both families were ATI royalty as Sir Gothard made an appearance and gave them a sheepskin of fun for a wedding present. Anyway, IIRC, the groom's wedding band was made from his brides purity ring. Ugh, if transfer of authority wasn't icky enough, transfer of purity, yuck!

That was the Staddon wedding and it was definitely the upper levels of creepy.

I get squigged out just thinking of the fathers/purity/pieces of the heart thing. It just crosses all lines. It removes all autonomy and personal choice from a girl. It makes them someone else's property rather than their own person. It's disgusting enough that I try not to think of it any more than of the sick pedophiles walking the planet.

[MamaJunebug]

Father's should not own their daughter's sexuality. Neither should men define what is proper and improper sexual behavior for women.

Fundies remove what is beautiful in Christianity, the belief that someone can start again fresh. Even if a single person has sex, they can get forgiveness and begin new. When fundies act as if one instance of sex ruins a young person forever, they are going against their own beliefs.

debrand, I'm in the amen pew as to your thoughts about the topic of this thread. I just wanted to thank you for recognizing and naming what I bolded, above. :) I know you're not a Christian but you speak very rightly and very well about my religion. You get it! Thanks!!! :clap:

[maybeizfundie]

debrand, I'm in the amen pew as to your thoughts about the topic of this thread. I just wanted to thank you for recognizing and naming what I bolded, above. :) I know you're not a Christian but you speak very rightly and very well about my religion. You get it! Thanks!!! :clap:

Seconded. :)

[formergothardite]

I have no link, just my thoughts. Lately, I've been thinking about how creepy the obsession with virginity is in the fundie culture.

Fathers convince their young daughters to pledge their hearts and virginity to them. That sounds like emotional incest. How is a preteen supposed to understand the relevance of her promise to wait? At 21, I was far different than I was at 13. It would have been insane to expect me to keep a promise I made as a very young teen.

After the girl reaches adulthood, it is none of the father's business who she sleeps with. Being overly concerned that your daughter has or doesn't have a sex life sounds creepy. There is nothing wrong with a young woman deciding to remain a virgin until her wedding night, but it is not her father's place to ensure that she does.

Remember Kristin whose father placed the ring on her finger? Some of the customs that have arisen because of the fundie need to control young women's sexuality have a very incestuous overtone.

Chrisitan bloggers try to romanticize the issue and I want to destroy that romance. For any fundie woman reading this....it's disgusting and gross for your father to be concerned with your vagina. Sorry about the rant. It's very early here and I woke up thinking about this. LOL

I know that most of you agree that the father shouldn't control his daughter but are you as grossed out by the father/daughter purity movement as I am? I don't get how they don't understand how weird and sick all of this sounds. Apparently, this type of father/daughter relationship is found in the book that the movie, Courageous is based upon, so this type of thinking is moving into mainstream Christiainty

If you have any links explaining why this type of thinking is perverted and wrong, I'd love to read them. Surely, this can't be the only site that points out how weird the fundie obsession with purity is.

I know when she came here she tried to play that off as cute and "her idea", but it is not normal. At all. I don't even think I've seen the no-touching people go that far. Usually the girls puts on the ring herself or they bend the rule a bit and let the guy do it. And yes, the whole obsession with a daughters virginity is creepy. Especially since there isn't equal attention payed to the guys.

[bananacat]

I agree that it's partly a financial investment. If Princess loses her hymen, then suddenly Daddy has to pay to support her forever because no Prince Charming will ever want to marry it her and it's not like she'll be able to support herself financially.

But this really isn't exclusive to the fundies, although they take it to the creepiest extreme. Many "traditional" weddings today still involve the father giving away the bride to her husband, and many people think it's romantic just because they've seen done in extravagant weddings. Mothers never give away their sons, and rarely give away their daughters if there's no suitable male owner around.

A lot of hypocritical parents are also more strict with daughters than sons. They say it's because their son can't end up pregnant, but that only makes sense if they don't give a fuck about other people's daughters ending up pregnant. It's really just an excuse to feel possessive of a daughter's sexuality.

And of course there are "your mom" jokes, and it's usually considered an insult for one man to tell another that he slept with the guy's mother, sister, or daughter. This would only be insulting in the context that men own the sexuality of their female relatives and the "joke" implies that one man failed to protect his property from another man. I have never heard women insult each other by saying they slept with a woman's brother, father, or son.

We definitely have a messed up view of this in our culture, and the fundies take it as far as they can to the point of emotional incest.

[turquoise]

It's very creepy. My parents were conservative Christians, and didn't believe anyone should have premarital sex, but that applied to both sons and daughters equally.

My dad did walk me and my sister down the aisle at our weddings. My sister and I both thought that tradition was a little silly, but we knew it meant something to our dad as a sign of pride and affection. Knowing him and our husbands, it didn't feel like anyone thought they owned us.

But he would have been horribly embarrassed to have a discussion about "purity" with us. It would have been as squicky to him as it would have been to us.

[rmac3]

Go look at this:

http://www.amazon.com/Dirty-Girls-Clean ... 983&sr=1-3

By the way when they talk about porn they mean romance novels, Cosmo, etc.

[darareaksmey]

I have always found it pretty sick. I have a twelve-year-old daughter, and I'm quite sure that if my husband were having these kinds of conversations with her and trying to exact promises from her, I would think he had lost his mind.

I'm thinking there is probably some mental disorder that can be associated with young women who have to deal with this purity business with their dads. Once they do finally lose their virginity, presumably on the wedding night,then what's the next conversation with daddy like? "Oh, dad, I'm so GLAD I waited!' It was lovely and perfect and holy!" I mean, if dad made such a big deal about purity for the years leading up to the wedding, does he just never bring the subject up again after the daughter's marriage? Does daughter just blush and squirm next time she sees her dad? Yuck.

[GeoBQn]

Read The Purity Myth by Jessica Valenti. It does a great job showing how the emphasis on purity not only hurts girls in this lifestyle, but society as well.

[Joykins]

my dad didn't obsess about my vagina, instead he took hikes with me and helped me with my science projects, and made sure I was motivated to do well in school and was proud of my education and job success, and since I knew it meant a lot to him I let him give me away at my wedding. He did get kind of weird about 5 years later when I told him I was pregnant, I think he finally had to face the fact that I was having sex, now he adores the grandkids of course :lol: