Fundie Fathers And Their Daughter's Vaginas

[Joykins]

Go look at this:

http://www.amazon.com/Dirty-Girls-Clean ... 983&sr=1-3

By the way when they talk about porn they mean romance novels, Cosmo, etc.

Where did you get that--that's mostly what I read. I must be a dirty girl : :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[SquirrelySquirrel]

How can it be anything but squicky? The first time I heard about those purity balls I wanted to hide somewhere and pretend I'd never seen it. Ugh. I agree, fundies are definitely the ones obsessed with sex, not the rest of us. It seems to be all they every think about, whether it's keeping their daughters "pure," defining courtship rules, or filling the quiver. I think there are more sex references in an episode of 19K&C than in an episode of Bachelor Pad.

My dad would have been horrified to even contemplate the state of my hymen. We've never discussed it, but I'm sure he would've rather jumped off a cliff than take me to a ball and have me pledge my virginity. Granted, he's not religious, but he is a bit old school in his opinions on sex. I blame that on his age.

I think what's hardest for me to compute is the whole issue of morality being tied to sex, fundie or not. I'm a lifelong atheist so it's never been something I believed to be true, or really even understood. But I feel that way with most "sin."

[auntdoc]

I was in the fundie world for abt 15 yrs and I think all of this qf was just starting when I exited. The thing I noticed abt preachers in that world is that they could not get away without making reference to something to do with sex in every sermon. Positive (purity) or negative (homosexuality), etc. When a child hears this at least 3 times a week at Sun morn, nite and Wed nite service their whole life, it's no wonder the parents are worried abt their purity. If they'd just quit talking abt it in sermons so much, they wouldn't have as many of these kids growing up to be perverts in their churches.

I'm so glad that I didn't attend these churches until I was 16. I was able to have a normal thought life as a child. If they'd just answer their children's questions as they come up!

There is a verse in the Bible that says all things should be done in moderation. ALL THINGS - the fundies completely miss or ignore this verse.

[Blonde not dumb]

Agreed on all accounts! I really question the father who doesn't think that there is something really inappropriate about that level of um, involvement. I can't imagine.

Both parents (when there is a two parent situation) should be equally involved as their child matures to teach him/her respect for themselves and for others. That is the basis for good decisions related to sexuality. Respect yourself enough to protect yourself and only do what you are comfortable with and respect others enough to not pressure them or use them. The end.

I love what Charmaine said on the Cosby Show- "What I have may not be precious to the world but it is precious to me. What I have ain't no knick-knack!"

We should teach respect based sex education instead of abstinence. I think that would yield better results all around.

[Guest Anonymous]

One of the first fundie blogs I read was Kristina's and the whole sitting six inches apart at all time, no touching thing really weirded me out because the only other fundies I really knew about were the Duggars on my tv. Then the whole father putting the ring on his own daughter freakin' blew my mind! Shoot even Josh got to touch Anna before they got married.

[Kelya]

I remember telling Kristina her father was overly interested in her vagina and she freaked out. Same with another fundie that week, too. Back on Yuku. It was strange.

/end tangent.

[Kitty]

Fundies literally have a phobia of sex. They obsess about sex all the time, and how to avoid it- it's almost like OCD (which I have some experience with). They fear it, and loathe it; they have an extreme aversion to the idea of it. Then when it happens, they freak the fuck out. I've had to deal with a phobia (of something else entirely) and I know one when I see it. Their attitude toward sex is a straight-up phobia. Explains the fear of any kind of touch between males and females, even innocent touches between two people who are supposed to be married.

With that being said, purity rings are disgusting. You are showing off your sex life to EVERYBODY who bothers to look at your hand. Some purity-ring wearers tried to give me bullshit about how it's to "remind themselves" of their promise to wait. Bullshit. Utter tripe. While jewelry can have a deep personal meaning, it is still meant to be visible. you are still showing off your sex life to EVERYBODY who looks at your freaking hand! Oh, sure, there's wedding rings, married couples certainly have sex, but guess what? Marriage is a lot more than just sex. I'm an unmarried, non-virgin 19 year old and I fucking know this, thanks to my parents who have been happily married and bullshit-free for 21 years.

And purity balls? Fucking creepy, and a disgusting mockery of marriage. That's what purity balls are after all, mock weddings TO YOUR FATHER. How is that not incest? You spend possibly hundreds of dollars on a big shebang where you tell your father you won't have sex, and your vagina belongs to him, until he gives it away, GIVES IT AWAY, to your husband. You have no control over your own choices, or your own body. That is not something anyone should ever hear from their father. It's creepy. It's disgusting. It's incest.

Fundies' reaction to pre-marital sex pisses me off too. The 'guilty' person has to go up in front of their church and confess. Fucking really? What other sin do they have to do this for? Why don't they make abusive parents tell everyone that they beat their children, or thieves admit that they stole something, or make the preachers/higher ups confess that they're all fucking hypocrites?! Seriously, churches go on and on about pre-marital sex and abortion and homosexuality and how it's so evil while blithely tuning out the fact that the deacons are raping teenage girls in the congregation or the preacher is abusing little boys or the man in the fifth row is cheating on his wife of 15 years with some 20 year old in the college Sunday school class, or the woman in the third row who HATES ABORTION MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE had one last week. That's the sort of shit that certainly helped me pull away from Christianity, and that's much of what's keeping me away from it.

Or maybe it's not the real Christianity that I can't stand. I've read much of the New Testament, and it has a lot of good stuff. If I could believe in a deity, I'd consider becoming a real Christian because of its commands to help the poor, love everyone, and forgive those who mess up. This perverted version of Christianity is a plague and a cult and I don't want any part of it. I don't think any of those "Christians" have even read the Bible.

[O Latin]

Okay, I'm not really sure how to say this, but I don't quite understand why the whole purity thing is so creepy to some people. Not because I think it's good or right. It's more just that my immediate reaction is more "Eh, it's their business" than "EWWWWWWWW!" I am NOT trying to defend fundie patriarchs. I'm just thinking out loud a little bit to try to figure out why I have such a different reaction than so many of you.

I think it's partly that I don't see tradition and symbolism as necessarily equaling reality. Like with the giving away at weddings, I want my dad (or both my parents, if that's how they want to do it) to walk me down the aisle. No matter how independent and autonomous I am, my parents are important people in my life and I could not imagine not having them involved in my wedding in some way. But anyone who is close enough to me to be invited to my future wedding will understand that it's a symbolic tradition representing the role my parents play in my life and that my dad is not literally giving me to whoever I marry. Traditions don't necessarily have to keep their original meaning.

Second, I know I've mentioned before that when I was a teenager I would have killed to go to one of these purity balls. I was totally committed to the idea of not having sex until marriage, but most people's reaction to this (the few people I dared to tell, anyway) was either, "You're a prude," or, "You'll change your mind in the heat of the moment, so make sure you have birth control." I was so desperate for anyone at all to acknowledge that my choice was valid. I would have been content with my parents allowing me to spend my own money to buy a purity ring. Anyway, all of this to say that I think these purity people are trying, maybe in a misguided way, to give girls the message that staying "pure" is glamorous and special. I think our culture does, to a certain extent, teach young people (of both genders) that there's something wrong with them if they're not having sex, for whatever reason. The fundies, of course, blow this out of proportion and try to counter it with their obsessive focus on purity.

Anyway, I don't know if I really have a point here, just some random thoughts as I try to make sense of things.

[Maul the Koala]

I think our culture does, to a certain extent, teach young people (of both genders) that there's something wrong with them if they're not having sex, for whatever reason. The fundies, of course, blow this out of proportion and try to counter it with their obsessive focus on purity.

Anyway, I don't know if I really have a point here, just some random thoughts as I try to make sense of things.

Which is kind of odd considering the shift to sex ed in the US being "Don't do it!".

I find the obsession with publically declaring virginity strange. One of the girls I had classes with wore a purity ring that her boyfriend gave her and whenever anyone asked if it was an engagement ring, she said no it was a purity ring. I mean, good for her for choosing something she's comfortable with but I'm not sure I could go around wearing what most people would think is an engagement ring, on the finger that an engagement ring is traditionally worn, having people ask me about my engagement and then explaining that it's a purity ring. Too much information! Too much information!

I am very uncomfortable with talk of anyone's sex life. If you're doing it GREAT, be safe and get checked for STIs. If you're not doing it GREAT. As long as it's something you want and aren't being forced into either way, knock yourself out and don't tell me about whether you are or are not getting it on.

[Clementine]

I too find the whole purity debate totally creepy and borderline incestuous. Wearing a purity ring is like walking around with your hymen wrapped around your finger with the words": Belongs to daddy" until I am married. Ick!

I also don't understand why they make something so private as sex such a public thing. Fine if they want to wait with sex until marriage but why do they have to show it to the whole world with a purity ring. That's NOT modest in my opinion.

The only people I know that manifests their sexual preferences with a ring are the fundies (purity ring) and the BDSM crowd where a lot of them wear the ring of O.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_O

[maybeizfundie]

O Latin, I get what you are saying. My public highschool sex-ed classes were definitely *not* abstinence based, and the majority of my peers were either "doing it" or at least lying about "doing it", lol. Anyone who wasn't was the odd one out, and girls who weren't were possibly "lesbian" (while girls who "did it" too much were "sluts", natch. sigh)

IMO, it's these particular manifestations of "purity" that are disturbing. Especially as the major focus seems to be on girls. Which is a twisting of the Biblical teaching. Maybe because the rest of the culture is very public and open about sex, they feel they need to be public and open in their contrariness to "worldly" sexual mores, but I don't like it and my husband would consider it a huge breech of modesty and propriety to participate in something like that.

I don't find the Christian/Biblical teaching on sexual restraint at all creepy. I follow it. My dh follows it. We will teach it to our children (all boys, thus far). But we will not be doing public delcarations.

[debrand]

There is nothing wrong with someone choosing to wait until sex. No one should be pressured to do what they don't want or aren't ready to do. The opposite is also true. Young women shouldn't' feel pressured to wait until marriage to have sex or told that their worth is dependent on the presence of a piece of skin.

I graduated in 1985. At the time, every movie seemed to have the message of, Just have sex. My generation grew up on Porky's, Animal House and Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Some acknowledgment that perfectly normal teens might choose not to have sex would have been nice. The message in the movies conflicted with my mother's message, "Just don't have sex." And my peer's message that too much sex makes a girl a whore.

Parents should make certain that their kids have enough confidence to make the decisions that are right for them. Involved parents do have an effect on their children's behavior. Kids should be taught correct information about birth control. Although there is a greater chance that a teen will have sex than not, no one should feel abnormal or strange for not have sex.

When you take the morality out of sex, an object like a purity ring seems silly. How is it different than a girl wearing a ring that announces how many lovers she has? Most of us would find such a a ring to be in bad taste. Yet how is a purity ring any more tasteful?

[CanadianHippie]

Okay, I'm not really sure how to say this, but I don't quite understand why the whole purity thing is so creepy to some people. Not because I think it's good or right. It's more just that my immediate reaction is more "Eh, it's their business" than "EWWWWWWWW!"

The "ewwww" comes from the fact that it's not their business, it is entirely their father's business and their entire worth is based on whether or not they have touched/kissed/had sex with someone else before marriage. I'm guessing most (all?) here have no problem with the young woman deciding for herself to remain a virgin until marriage, and making that promise to herself. But making that promise to her dad? Pledging her existence as a sexual being to her dad? That's just creepy and yeah, my reaction is "ewwww" for the same reason my reaction to a man and the girls father decided it's ok for them to court before the woman even knows it's being discussed. She doesn't matter and what she wants or feels is right doesn't matter, it's all about what he wants and thinks is right, whether "he" is her father or husband.

[CanadianHippie]

How is it different than a girl wearing a ring that announces how many lovers she has? Most of us would find such a a ring to be in bad taste. Yet how is a purity ring any more tasteful?

It's no different. In fact it is exactly what she is doing. Wearing a ring that announces how many lovers she has/has had. The very reason of the ring is to say the number is zero.

[Guest Anonymous]

O Latin,

I think you make a good point about how the popular expectation of premarital sex would be alienating to those, like you, who wanted to wait. But, as you note, the fundies with the purity balls and the purity rings blow it all out of proportion. And it's also much worse than just blowing it out of proportion. For one thing, it isn't about validating a daughter's choices; it's about making those choices about the use of her vagina for her, essentially taking ownership and control of her boy, and then bragging about it to the entire world.

My parents, for once, got something exactly right. The message I got was that sex was entirely my own business and an entirely private affair with little to no bearing on my worth as a person either way. I also got the message that I should never, ever feel I had to do something sexual I didn't want to just to get the approval of others -- because, again, it's not anyone's business. I was from a sexually liberal family, yet I was fine with being the only virgin among my friends freshman year of college. Although my immediate circle of friends obviously talked about their sex lives, I think the notion of "privacy" was a really important part of the sexual ethics with which I was raised. "Privacy" is linked to the idea that sex is no one's business but my own, and that my sexual choices are not public property or something that I have to answer to others about.

Back to purity balls -- it's a pretty dirty trick to get a very young girl (sometimes they are pre-adolescent) and get her to pledge to God that she will never have sex until marriage, when she doesn't even understand the implications of what she is promising, and then hold that pledge over her head when she is older. If you think there is a lot of pressure on non-fundie girls to have sex, imagine the pressure on a girl has made a purity vow. She can't exactly make a public announcement that she has rethought this whole purity thing and that she's decided to have premarital sex anyway. She can't even take off her ring without raising lots of eyebrows. So she is forced to either tow the line others have decided for her, face the wrath and judgment of her family and community, or be a massive hypocrite walking around with a purity ring while she is secretly having sex. This has nothing to do with "validating" a girl's choice.

[fundiefan]

I don't think there is anything 'special' about choosing not to have sex any more than I think there is anything special about choosing to do it. It's a choice each individual should make about their own life, not a choice their parents have any place making for them (after a certain age, of course).

When I was in high school 30 years ago, a public high school in the biggest city in the state, our health classes included sex education. The first part of that education was abstinence. Even way back then the 'the only safe sex is no sex' message was loud and clear. Yet, they also taught contraception and disease prevention because they knew that teenagers will do what they will do. They knew that 20 year olds will do what they will do.

I didn't get much sex education, if any, from my mother. At least none that I remember. I did, however, get a good grounding in reality from school. My mom preferred to pretty much let us live as we chose, even from a very young age. For all that was good and bad about that, I definitely believe it was positive and right and good that she never felt she had a place in our sex lives.

As a whole, I don't get the point of proclaiming your virginity or intention to remain a virgin any more than I would get the point of wearing a belt with notches for each sexual experience you do have.

Sex is not shameful in the least; it's not ugly or dirty or bad. It is, however, entirely personal and private. No dad needs to be that involved in their daughter's choices and the public does not need to know you choices.

[Austin]

When one of our sons was fourteen or so, he came back from a church retreat all fired up about abstinence and purity, etc. Other boys were getting/wearing purity pendants (as opposed to rings) and promising to save themselves for marriage and he wanted us to buy him one. I said no. I said no because I have a huge problem with making promises that one is unlikely to keep and I felt there was a lot of peer pressure at this retreat which had brought on this sort of thinking.

I told him that at fourteen, he had no idea how he was going to feel about the issue in six years or ten years. I pointed out that he may not marry until he's in his 30s or 40s, and that may certainly affect his ability or desire to keep that promise. Life is messy and it doesn't always play out the way we plan. I wanted him to know that responsible decisions are not something to feel ashamed of.

This surprised him, because by then he knew that his and I had been virgins at marriage and that for us, that worked very well. He expected that we would think a purity pendant was a great idea. But those were our personal sensibilities and we had other issues to consider, as well, which I explained. I told him that waiting is a legitimate choice, but no more a legitimate choice than not waiting. I told him that if was going to make a promise, I would rather it be one where he vowed to respect himself and any young woman involved, and that if they did decide to become intimate, he would always use protection - without fail - every. single. time. - no matter what the girl said.

BTW, abstinence was the only curriculum approved in our district, so kids around here have to get their advice from parents or other trusted adults, and so obviously, a lot of teens don't get any advice or education re: sex.

Anyhoo, I suggested that if he still felt strongly about it, that he should use his own money to buy the pendant, as our stance was a neutral one. He never bought one, as far as I know.

[Joykins]

O Latin,

I think you make a good point about how the popular expectation of premarital sex would be alienating to those, like you, who wanted to wait. But, as you note, the fundies with the purity balls and the purity rings blow it all out of proportion. And it's also much worse than just blowing it out of proportion. For one thing, it isn't about validating a daughter's choices; it's about making those choices about the use of her vagina for her, essentially taking ownership and control of her boy, and then bragging about it to the entire world.

My parents, for once, got something exactly right. The message I got was that sex was entirely my own business and an entirely private affair with little to no bearing on my worth as a person either way. I also got the message that I should never, ever feel I had to do something sexual I didn't want to just to get the approval of others -- because, again, it's not anyone's business. I was from a sexually liberal family, yet I was fine with being the only virgin among my friends freshman year of college. Although my immediate circle of friends obviously talked about their sex lives, I think the notion of "privacy" was a really important part of the sexual ethics with which I was raised. "Privacy" is linked to the idea that sex is no one's business but my own, and that my sexual choices are not public property or something that I have to answer to others about.

Back to purity balls -- it's a pretty dirty trick to get a very young girl (sometimes they are pre-adolescent) and get her to pledge to God that she will never have sex until marriage, when she doesn't even understand the implications of what she is promising, and then hold that pledge over her head when she is older. If you think there is a lot of pressure on non-fundie girls to have sex, imagine the pressure on a girl has made a purity vow. She can't exactly make a public announcement that she has rethought this whole purity thing and that she's decided to have premarital sex anyway. She can't even take off her ring without raising lots of eyebrows. So she is forced to either tow the line others have decided for her, face the wrath and judgment of her family and community, or be a massive hypocrite walking around with a purity ring while she is secretly having sex. This has nothing to do with "validating" a girl's choice.

I completely agree. Purity balls are public, and they put pressure on young girls to make a promise they cannot (because of their age) understand all the implications of, and they can make unwilling hypocrites of older people who have broken their promise but don't want to make this public (because sex is a private thing). The vast majority, and by "vast majority" I mean over 80%, of people who make this virginity pledges, find for one reason or another they can't keep it. Some teens can be very idealistic and moralistic but this tends to wane as they grow older and have more life experience. However, studies have also consistently shown that teens who make virginity pledges are less likely to practice safe sex when they break their pledge, and this is a serious concern both for STDs and unplanned pregnancy. Also, since teens who make virginity pledges, when compared to teens from similar backgrounds (religious, conservative, etc.), have premarital sex at approximately the same rates but fail to use safe sex practices as often, it seems that the actual impacts of virginity pledges are negative; i.e. they don't stop kids from having sex any more than similar kids would, but it makes it more likely that they'd be unsafe.

After all, if you grow up in a fundy household and somehow find an opportunity and desire to sneak off with a member of the appropriate sex, are either of you really likely to have a condom?

[slickcat79]

When one of our sons was fourteen or so, he came back from a church retreat all fired up about abstinence and purity, etc. Other boys were getting/wearing purity pendants (as opposed to rings) and promising to save themselves for marriage and he wanted us to buy him one. I said no. I said no because I have a huge problem with making promises that one is unlikely to keep and I felt there was a lot of peer pressure at this retreat which had brought on this sort of thinking.

This. I went with my church youth group when I was about that age to hear a discussion about abstinence, which involved most of the youth groups from the area (hundreds of teens in all). Several older couples spoke about the benefits of it, and we had prayer time and cookies. At the end we were all asked to come up and sign an abstinence pledge, and the vast majority of people did. I'm pretty sure I was the only person in my group not to sign it. It wasn't that I was having sex, or planned to have sex; it's been years since then and I still haven't. But I didn't know how I was going to think or feel in 5 or 10 years, and I didn't want to make some sort of promise at that age that I might not be able to keep.

I don't know that most of the other teens even felt a lasting commitment from their promises. It was more like something you just did because everyone was watching you and all the others were doing it. Just peer pressure, really, though I can't imagine it was all that strong or I probably would have signed it too. When I told my mom that I didn't sign it, she was angry with me. I was trying to make her understand that I didn't consider it anyone else's business whether or not I had sex before marriage, but I'm not sure it worked. After our conversation, I'm not sure if she was proud of me for making my own decisions or still annoyed that I hadn't publicly promised to be abstinent until marriage. I kind of wonder now if she even remembers that happening :think: