Joshley Madison Pt 7: O Smuggar Where Art Thou?

[Themiscyran]

I'm the one who got Ryan to admit that they won't work with Catholics.

Then thanks for that, bc I genuinely thought that was useful.

I noticed they didn't answer the question about whether they could help someone "struggling" with homosexuality. Conversion "therapy" is banned for minors but not adults in Illinois, and that law just passed pretty recently (May? I think?) so it's been in the news there. Very curious why they didn't answer.

[lawlifelgbt]

Then thanks for that, bc I genuinely thought that was useful.

I noticed they didn't answer the question about whether they could help someone "struggling" with homosexuality. Conversion "therapy" is banned for minors but not adults in Illinois, and that law just passed pretty recently (May? I think?) so it's been in the news there. Very curious why they didn't answer.

I asked that, and was really hoping for an answer- but legally speaking, I can see why they didn't, since bans on it for minors only leads to iffy situations (gay kid is locked down until 18, then forced into it soon after, and it's considered "voluntary" since he's legally an adult, though his situation would not have changed).

[Themiscyran]

I asked that, and was really hoping for an answer- but legally speaking, I can see why they didn't, since bans on it for minors only leads to iffy situations (gay kid is locked down until 18, then forced into it soon after, and it's considered "voluntary" since he's legally an adult, though his situation would not have changed).

I'm a little confused--why is that legally iffy? It seems to me like they are in the legal clear since they only take people over 18 (not that I WANT them to be doing this but I rather suspect they are). How does the pre-18 coercion by parents affect them?

Also, there are people who actually want this, because of fundie brainwashing about queer identities--I can't really call them coerced (although I certainly think any group that offers "treatment" for simply being LGBTQUI should be run out of town on a rail.)

ETA: I don't ask because I doubt you, btw, just because I'm not following.

The bottom line for me is that I suspect RU will take just about anyone's money, once they have established you don't have medical needs (they are upfront at least that they can't handle medical detox and the like.) Since they don't count dropouts as failures in the 80% number, they don't even have to worry about being unsuccessful.

(They SHOULD worry about screwing up people's lives just because it's WRONG, but they seem to care more about converts and $$ than anything else.)

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I'm the one who got Ryan to admit that they won't work with Catholics.

This wasn't a secret, it's in their official material. In their application to start a charter RU it says they will not accept any application by a church that doesn't agree to its doctrinal statement. Of the 7 items in their must believe list there are 5 which are in direct opposition to official Catholic teachings. No one representing an official Catholic Church or organization could ever sign off on those.

reformersministry.org/application/

I read about these here when RU first came to the fore - so not sure why anyone would think it means anything that they admitted it? It's not something they are trying to hide.

And for those who don't want to hit the link, but are curious here is their statement of faith with which every chapter must be in agreement (commentary in italics mine):

...

Doctrinal Statement

We Believe…

… That the Holy Scriptures are the verbally inspired Word of God and are the final authority for faith, life, and conduct; that they were given without error and are preserved without error. We use only the King James Bible in our materials. No exceptions, no options, no change. 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

RCC doesn't hold the bible as the final authority. It's believed to be inspired but not a DIY manual for us. And the KJV insistence...no way.

… That there is one God, an infinite, intelligent Spirit, the Maker and Supreme Ruler of Heaven and earth. In unity of the Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, equal in every divine perfection, and executing distinct but harmonious offices in the work of redemption. John 4:24, 10:30; Matthew 28: 19,20

… That Jesus Christ was begotten of the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary in order that He might reveal God and redeem sinful man, “For all have sinned,…†(Romans 3:23), by His death on the cross as a vicarious, substitutional sacrifice. That man’s justification is made sure by His literal, physical resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-25; John 1:1-14; Galatians 4:3-5

I've always been confused by what they mean by 'justification' so I can't quite put my finger in the issue with this one, but since I think this has to do with the process of salvation I'm going to have to assume the RCC and RU wouldn't be on the same page.

… That Salvation is by grace, through repentance and faith in the substitutionary work of the Son of God, the just dying for the unjust. That all true believers are eternally secure in Christ. Romans 3:24,25; I Corinthians 15:3, 20; Hebrews 9:12-22; I Corinthians 3:15

ditto comment above - not sure exactly what that are trying to say here because I'm pretty ignorant in doctrinal nuance but I'm going to guess there are differences. If this says that they feel salvation cannot be lost they are definitely at odds.

… That the return of Jesus Christ is both sure and soon coming. That this second coming will be a literal, bodily, personal return. That His coming for His bride, the church, is pretribulational and constitutes the eternal “blessed hope†set before us. That there will be a bodily resurrection for the just and unjust to join their souls for a final judgment. The unjust to an eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire. For the just an eternal conscious blessedness in the city of God. I Thessalonians 4:16-18; Revelation 3:21, 20:1-15

Literal lake of fire? Catholics are out. And my Catholic understanding was that the book of revelation was a political statement of the times about the state of Rome. Admittedly I don't know the official teaching on that, but I don't know one Catholic who thinks Revelation is literal or a prophesy.

… That the local church was given two ordinances: Baptism by immersion and the Lord’s Supper. Acts 8:36-39; I Corinthians 11:23-28

Immersion? Allowed but not really done - as a people we sprinkle babies and converts. Hard to find a Baptist that approves of Infant baptism. Also do Baptists believe it leaves an indelible mark? Just curious.

And we definitely don't see eye to eye on the Lord' supper. We don't do grape juice and there's the whole transsubstituion deal. Neither side will agree to disagree on that one.

… In the biblical distinctives of the Baptist faith. They are: Biblical Authority, Autonomy of the Local Church, Priesthood of all Believers, Two Ordinances, Individual Soul Liberty, Saved Baptized Church Membership, Two Officers (Pastor & Deacon), Separation of Church and State.

Dont even need to break this down - no freaking way would a Catholic sign attesting to this.

Your charter application will not be accepted without our doctrinal statement accepted and your doctrinal statement received.

I have carefully read the RU Doctrinal Statement, and have the authority to represent the church membership. We are in agreement with the Reformers Unanimous Recovery Program Doctrinal Statement.*

Yes

[Themiscyran]

This wasn't a secret, it's in their official material. In their application to start a charter RU it says they will not accept any application by a church that doesn't agree to its doctrinal statement. Of the 7 items in their must believe list there are 5 which are in direct opposition to official Catholic teachings. No one representing an official Catholic Church or organization could ever sign off on those. (snip)

No, that part wasn't a secret, but it wasn't confirmed that they would happily take Catholic money just not let them use the brand. And that they take Catholics in the residential program. That wasn't clear to me before. (Maybe it should have been, but I had not seen it or realized it.)

(Although it makes sense--OF COURSE they welcome individual Catholics, since this is really a conversion ministry more than anything else.)

… That Jesus Christ was begotten of the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary in order that He might reveal God and redeem sinful man, “For all have sinned,…†(Romans 3:23), by His death on the cross as a vicarious, substitutional sacrifice. That man’s justification is made sure by His literal, physical resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-25; John 1:1-14; Galatians 4:3-5

I've always been confused by what they mean by 'justification' so I can't quite put my finger in the issue with this one, but since I think this has to do with the process of salvation I'm going to have to assume the RCC and RU wouldn't be on the same page.

… That Salvation is by grace, through repentance and faith in the substitutionary work of the Son of God, the just dying for the unjust. That all true believers are eternally secure in Christ. Romans 3:24,25; I Corinthians 15:3, 20; Hebrews 9:12-22; I Corinthians 3:15

ditto comment above - not sure exactly what that are trying to say here because I'm pretty ignorant in doctrinal nuance but I'm going to guess there are differences. If this says that they feel salvation cannot be lost they are definitely at odds.

I think that here they're basically saying that salvation is through the grace of the resurrection and available through repentance and belief in Christ alone...so no sacraments (notice they call Baptism and Communion "ordinances") as part of salvation or as sources of grace.

You know, reading that, I am curious as to whether American Baptists, who are definitely Baptist but much more liberal, would even be able to pass muster. Every single church that comes up on the first few pages of a google hit is IFB.

Also, the guy said "most" of the churches with RU chapters are Baptist, but not all. I truly wonder what non-Baptist churches are able to qualify?

(edited for total coding fail)

(edited again for clarity)

[missegeno]

stuff

I think that link should be broken so we don't alert them to this conversation. Just remove the http:// part.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I think that link should be broken so we don't alert them to this conversation. Just remove the http:// part.

Oops - done. Thanks for catching that.

[Themiscyran]

Looking at that charter again, I can't help wonder about this:

It is agreed that all copyrights, trademarks, trade names, service marks, and similar proprietary rights in and to the Reformers Unanimous program and any and all materials and methods provided by Reformers Unanimous International under this charter, including without limitation the term “Reformers Unanimous†(together referred to as the “Reformers Unanimous propertyâ€), are owned solely and exclusively by Reformers Unanimous International and that your church may use the Reformers Unanimous property only while this charter is in effect.

....which would seem to preclude churches that aren't officially chartered from using the materials and methods, no? So I don't really get why they say they will sell the materials and Catholics are welcome to use them but they can't be officially chartered?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

No, that part wasn't a secret, but it wasn't confirmed that they would happily take Catholic money just not let them use the brand. And that they take Catholics in the residential program. That wasn't clear to me before. (Maybe it should have been, but I had not seen it or realized it.)

(Although it makes sense--OF COURSE they welcome individual Catholics, since this is really a conversion ministry more than anything else.)

I think that here they're basically saying that salvation is through the grace of the resurrection and available through repentance and belief in Christ alone...so no sacraments (notice they call Baptism and Communion "ordinances") as part of salvation or as sources of grace.

You know, reading that, I am curious as to whether American Baptists, who are definitely Baptist but much more liberal, would even be able to pass muster. Every single church that comes up on the first few pages of a google hit is IFB.

Also, the guy said "most" of the churches with RU chapters are Baptist, but not all. I truly wonder what non-Baptist churches are able to qualify?

(edited for total coding fail)

(edited again for clarity)

Yeah, I just assumed they'd take anyone as an individual since they if they don't get with the program and bail early they still keep the money.

I do think the market for Catholics showing up with a bag packed is pretty tiny...due to the tongue biting and eye rolling their families/outside accountability partners would have to endure from these pseudo-therapists for Jesus. :D But yeah, I figured they'd take heathens of all stripes because they either get converts or they keep the money after they've run screaming drop outs don't hurt their stats. No downside to them.

And now I want to learn what an American Baptist is...i am learning so much, with no practical use to me, so I should probably rethink how I've been spending my time! I will tell you I don't have have the attention span to be Protestant - way too many options that I don't understand!

Mt first wedding was actually in a Baptist church just because we could t do a Catholic wedding and they had the day available...out of curiosity I tried to see what kind of Baotist it was and it does t say on the website. Are these unwritten distinctions? Do they usually note if they are southern IFB, Amercian, or whatever? If not how do Baptists new to an area find their version?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Looking at that charter again, I can't help wonder about this:

....which would seem to preclude churches that aren't officially chartered from using the materials and methods, no? So I don't really get why they say they will sell the materials and Catholics are welcome to use them but they can't be officially chartered?

This is the application to become an official RU chapter. They probably have a different agreement for use of the materials but unofficial parties. Probably needs to be signed in blood under a full moon while wearing hair shirts...much weeping and gnashing of teeth over their unworthiness and gratitude to be allowed to read the sacred writs. :D

[Themiscyran]

And now I want to learn what an American Baptist is...i am learning so much, with no practical use to me, so I should probably rethink how I've been spending my time! I will tell you I don't have have the attention span to be Protestant - way too many options that I don't understand!

Mt first wedding was actually in a Baptist church just because we could t do a Catholic wedding and they had the day available...out of curiosity I tried to see what kind of Baotist it was and it does t say on the website. Are these unwritten distinctions? Do they usually note if they are southern IFB, Amercian, or whatever? If not how do Baptists new to an area find their version?

I went to an American Baptist college, attended an American Baptist church for a while when I was a kid, and my godparents are American Baptists. I'll tell you what I know.

The American Baptists were once called "Northern Baptists"--they're descended from the pro-abolitionist Baptists that were left after the Southern Baptists left the national Triennial Conventional in 1840-something. (43? 45? can't remember.) They're not all liberal, but definitely more liberal the the Southern Baptists or IFB. They place a LOT of emphasis on soul freedom a la Roger Williams, so they really emphasize freedom of conscience. My college was nothing like a fundie college (in fact the biggest denomination among the students was Catholic.. go figure). We had real science, real history--the AB don't object to evolution. The only thing was no alcohol, although I don't know if that's universal. (Individuals could drink alcohol off-campus, but on campus events had to be dry.) There were chapel services, not compulsory at all but available. The chaplain was extremely liberal and very cool and happy to help people of whatever faith when they were in difficulty.

Baptists usually identify by "convention"--which is basically a big meeting all individual churches send representatives two every three years or so (varies) that agrees to certain common doctrinal understandings and/or practices. There are conventions by state as well as by nation/region. So you can tell a lot by which convention they are affiliated with. (Missouri Baptist Convention, Southern Baptist Convention=conservative, more fundie/fundie lite. American Baptist Convention--more liberal, def not fundie.)

The exception to the convention rule is the IFB--they don't believe in conventions, as I understand it.

(edited for riffles and also to say: I should reiterate I'm not American Baptists so I'm probably missing some key points.)

[Themiscyran]

...or I could link to the AB website rather than rambling on!

abc-usa.org/10facts/

Some of their doctrinal positions are just like those of other Baptists (two ordinances--Baptism and Lord's supper), some are not, and some are subtle differnces (i.e., the Bible is the final written authority, but there's room in there for different translations and changing interpretations, unlike the IFB "only KJV" clause.) And I don't think you'll find a statement like this among the IFB anytime soon:

American Baptists have been called to be Christ’s witnesses for justice and wholeness within a broken society. American Baptists have been led by the Gospel mandates to promote holistic change within society, as witnessed by their advocacy of freed African Americans following the Civil War, the Civil Rights Movement, women in church and societal leadership, ecological responsibility, and many other issues. While not all of one mind as to how to deal with challenges, American Baptists do affirm the need to follow Christ’s example by being actively involved in changing society.

...SO not the Duggars! :lol:

[HerNameIsBuffy]

...or I could link to the AB website rather than rambling on!

abc-usa.org/10facts/

Some of their doctrinal positions are just like those of other Baptists (two ordinances--Baptism and Lord's supper), some are not, and some are subtle differnces (i.e., the Bible is the final written authority, but there's room in there for different translations and changing interpretations, unlike the IFB "only KJV" clause.) And I don't think you'll find a statement like this among the IFB anytime soon:

...SO not the Duggars! :lol:

This talk of conferences jogged my memory of an old designing women episode where Charlene was so upset that her minister was opposed to women serving as clergy - she and Julia had gone to some conference which sounds like what you're talking about.

It's on YouTube and I found the scene I remembered - Bernice rips into the minister about how KJV was written with sexism deliberately inserted (changed Phoebe from a deacon in other translations to a servant. Changed "she had administered well" to "she has suckled many."

Looking back I bet that episode was pretty divisive amongst some of their viewing audience. /youtu.be/iPwIGVvVHbY

Thanks for filling me in and ITA so not the Duggars! I can't imagine how complicated it is to find a church if you're baptist, given how many distinctions even within subdivisions, not to mention those who answer only to themselves.

[Themiscyran]

This talk of conferences jogged my memory of an old designing women episode where Charlene was so upset that her minister was opposed to women serving as clergy - she and Julia had gone to some conference which sounds like what you're talking about.

It's on YouTube and I found the scene I remembered - Bernice rips into the minister about how KJV was written with sexism deliberately inserted (changed Phoebe from a deacon in other translations to a servant. Changed "she had administered well" to "she has suckled many."

Looking back I bet that episode was pretty divisive amongst some of their viewing audience. /youtu.be/iPwIGVvVHbY

Thanks for filling me in and ITA so not the Duggars! I can't imagine how complicated it is to find a church if you're baptist, given how many distinctions even within subdivisions, not to mention those who answer only to themselves.

Ha! I LOVE that episode!

As far as complications, most of my Baptist friends seem to manage, lol. It's made a little simpler in that some of these affiliations are more regional...like the ABC is strong in the Midwest, barely found in the Deep South. One of my American Baptist friends became an Episcopalian when she moved to GA because there was not a single liberal Baptist church in her town. And a lot (not all) of Protestants do church-shopping anyway...i.e., look for a place where you feel comfortable and right, or where you like the preaching or the politics or whatever. The label might not matter as much for some folks. I've a friend right now who's church shopping because her church has gotten so homophobic...she's really just looking for someplace accepting and generally in line with her beliefs.

[Mary C Doates]

I participated in the chat two weeks in a row - and left early this time. It was fun for a while, but I eventually lost interest.

Their introductory slide show says "We're happy your here".

SOTDRT fail, RU.

[J'emima Puddlecluck]

Hi everyone. I just joined/registered. Long time lurker. I too was on Friday night's chat. I'm not sure if I was inappropriate or not but still felt I kind of badly/stupid afterwards. I won't chat on the RU site again.

Though I really think the baptistry curtain would be awesome for puppet shows. I'd love to see Punch and Judy blanket train little baby puppets....

[Themiscyran]

Hi everyone. I just joined/registered. Long time lurker. I too was on Friday night's chat. I'm not sure if I was inappropriate or not but still felt I kind of badly/stupid afterwards. I won't chat on the RU site again.

Though I really think the baptistry curtain would be awesome for puppet shows. I'd love to see Punch and Judy blanket train little baby puppets....

Fortunately the Bible is silent on puppets... ;)

[Cherokee2000]

Hi everyone. I just joined/registered. Long time lurker. I too was on Friday night's chat. I'm not sure if I was inappropriate or not but still felt I kind of badly/stupid afterwards. I won't chat on the RU site again.

Though I really think the baptistry curtain would be awesome for puppet shows. I'd love to see Punch and Judy blanket train little baby puppets....

Hi, J'emima; I remember you from the RU chat! I found the experience enlightening. However, like you, I probably won't go back.

Welcome to FJ; I love your avatar!

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

As an atheist I would much rather hang out with these folks than most of the ones who go to atheist events. ;)

...or I could link to the AB website rather than rambling on!

abc-usa.org/10facts/

Some of their doctrinal positions are just like those of other Baptists (two ordinances--Baptism and Lord's supper), some are not, and some are subtle differnces (i.e., the Bible is the final written authority, but there's room in there for different translations and changing interpretations, unlike the IFB "only KJV" clause.) And I don't think you'll find a statement like this among the IFB anytime soon:

...SO not the Duggars! :lol:

[CharlieInCharge]

Add my vote for Are you there G*d, it's me, Joshly for next thread title.

The wages of sin are $7500 made me lol, but I'm a sucker for childhood literary classics ;)

[Srilaura]

The Siloam Springs house seems to have been sold for 65k recently. http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/17163 ... 0586_zpid/

[Purposing]

The Siloam Springs house seems to have been sold for 65k recently. http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/17163 ... 0586_zpid/

OH, the possibilities. I can't wait to find out more about this little scoop. Back to their newlywed house? Has JB blessed Anna with Stoney Brooke? I want answers! :D

[bingbangboom]

The Siloam Springs house seems to have been sold for 65k recently. http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/17163 ... 0586_zpid/

I wonder who paid the back taxes...or if they were paid.

[2manyKidzzz]

Very interesting. Which house is worth more....Silloam or Stoneybrook....of course I would think Stoneybrook but he bought it when it was in bad shape.

With all of the kids, I am surpised he sold that house. All the kids coming up he is going to need more houses. I guess. I find it strange.

[Purposing]

I did a quick search of the county records to see if the purchaser was a member of the family but the records aren't updated yet. The county records did have an updated photo under the "Improvments" section and it looks like they did some work to the exterior. It doesn't look half bad anymore.