TLC Documentary on Sexual Abuse

[from the bible belt]

Hell, if either of them had even teared up when talking, they'd improve their image. But, even if they did...Michelle probably wouldn't want that included. Can't have them expressing emotions other than J-O-Y.

They have blanket trained all the shit out of these girls except KEEP SWEET i would think. So they do there smiles and keep sweet.

[Walking Cat Bed]

They have blanket trained all the shit out of these girls except KEEP SWEET i would think. So they do there smiles and keep sweet.

I was surprised that Jill was slightly emotional on camera for the Megyn Kelly fauxterview, mostly because of that -- anything but a smile is not properly reverent toward authority. (I do think Jill has a more compassionate/well-meaning personality, as with Derick, but is very, very naive and inexperienced in life; if she'd had an actual education, she could work in a care-giving role very effectively. But she was blanket trained TO blanket train and it will take a LOT for her to try anything else.)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re "safeguards':

TLC weaseled out on this.

Preventing older brothers from sharing in diaper duty (as suggested by an old ATI publication) does nothing to prevent CSA.

If a child is around a molester, I'm not comfortable with any level of "safeguards", "precautions" or "supervision". I know for a fact that there were times that someone close to me was molested under my nose, during family events.

Children need to be educated, repeatedly and properly, about sexual abuse. They need to know that they aren't the only ones who ever experienced it, and that help is available. They need to know that there are multiple people who can help. They need to know that it's ok to tell even if threats have been made. We need to make this mandatory, with no opt-out option, and even homeschoolers should need to bring their kids for education sessions. Reducing the number of mandated reporters in a child's life puts them at increased risk.

The most important safeguard is properly responding to CSA the first time that it is revealed, so that the offender does not continue to offend.

The initial abuse is only one aspect of the harm caused. While a child is not believed, or is blamed for the abuse, or is forced to keep everything secret and pretend that it never happened, or is forced to continue to see the abuser, or sees that the parent has chosen the abuser over them, there is a whole avalanche of harm that follows. Confronting CSA means confronting toxic power systems. It's easy to be outraged at the stereotype of a dirty old stranger harming children, but it's much harder for people to believe and empower children who accuse adults who have power in their lives. It's also hard for adults to open their eyes to the obvious risks that some people pose in their lives. Parents will forget the fact that their own parents were abusive when they need their support or a babysitter. People who are terrified of the outside world will turn a blind eye to the fact that they are allowing someone who has molested before to stay under the same roof with victims and other vulnerable children.

[Becket70]

Unless my old eyes are deceiving me, it looks like TLC's documentary was a ratings bust. (please someone go over to TV By the Numbers to double check...I have been known to miss a thing or two). The show before it was Who Do you Think You Are and it garnered about 1.6 million. The documentary was after that show but I don't see it has making the top 100 so a lot of viewers bailed. What does this say about the Duggars and their drawing power?

[karen77]

I try to cut Jill and Jessa a lot of slack, because they are victims who are still struggling with denial, locked in the cult that nurtured and enabled their abuse in the first place. I think it was unconscionable of TLC, RAINN, D2L and Erin's law to use their infamy to gain attention for their causes. I'm not convinced Jessa or Jill really had a choice about being on that documentary. And to put them on camera and film them learning about CSA is cruel. These groups should have known better than to exploit two CSA victims like this. Add to this, that TLC and these advocacy groups also exploited an 11 year old girl, and it makes me furious. I'm sorry...it's just wrong to force a child to relive this in front of an audience. I don't care how well adjusted she looks. She's a kid, who's been horribly traumatized, forced to speak in adult terms that she doesn't really understand. Not cool at all.

I am angry at Michelle, I'll give you that. But I also see her as a victim of sorts. She seems to be straddling the divide between victim and perpetrator, imo.

I'm guessing that TLC was forced to heavily edit the Duggars spot after the Ashley Madison bit..probably because they defended Josh. This could be why their talk seemed so disjointed. They should have been edited right out of it. Terrible slap to all survivors to have to see them acting like concerned mothers, as if the issue of child sexual abuse was a mere curiosity, and not something that had touched them personally. No one has forgotten what they said on Megyn Kelly either. They didn't renounce any of it.

And it blows my mind that they didn't mention Josh once. Not once. Nor his other three victims. Since the documentary was supposed inspired by him and his victims, it is very unsettling that he was scrubbed from it.

Even more unsettling is that RAINN and Darkness to Light said publicly that the Duggar inclusion was to be used as a teaching moment on what not to do. That never materialized. What a wasted opportunity. We all know if the Duggar parents had handled this differently and gotten him the appropriate help he needed as a teen, perhaps he wouldn't have cheated on Anna...another victim. And perhaps he wouldn't have roughed up the porn star...another victim. Such a shame that Michelle couldn't have admitted that they didn't handle it appropriately. She could have helped other evangelical parents facing a similar situation.

WHere was this stated?

[zephyr]

I support the idea of making education about sexual abuse mandatory. So many kids don't understand what is happening, or they are terrified by threats, or they think that nobody else would understand. I'm sure it would have helped one victim close to me disclose earlier. Of course, you need to do it properly. Train teachers or bring in experts.

Hell no to the idea of opting out. You want to reach as many children as possible precisely because most abusers are known to the victims.

This whole idea of age appropriate sex ed was causing a giant uproar in my province at the end of the last school year. There were a lot of people upset that teachers would be covering these "sensitive" topics with their children. One of the objections that got the most press was teaching grade 5 students about anal sex. My understanding of the objections was that parents felt that it would be giving the children permission to perform the act. (I know from a friend that is a teacher that this was actually happening at a school she used to work at. So while I personally feel grade 5 might be a bit young, it's obviously information that's needed at some schools.)

Personally, I feel that the more information the children are given, the better equipped they are to make an informed decision. I'm not saying I want my grade 5 kid to be in the position where they have to make the decision! Regardless, I want them to be well informed. I also want them to come home with questions or at least be willing to talk about what they've learned.

I do feel for the teachers having to cover, potentially, uncomfortable topics with students. I know that at my kids' school the teachers do this teaching in pairs.

Sorry if this got a bit off topic. The amendments also include, or don't remove, I no longer remember which, safe touches, keep secrets, and tell secrets.

[smittykins]

I'm glad I missed it.

And as always, Buzzard, thanks for taking one for the team. :dance: :clap: :dance: :worship:

[Browneyed Girl]

Adding my thanks too. I PVR'd the show but thanks to this thread I deleted it without watching it. I just couldn't. I think FJ very likely saved my TV because I very likely would have thrown something through it. You guys are the very best. Thanks.

[Chocomocho]

I wonder if she's just bitter about the Duggars essentially duping her into talking about sexual abuse in their home and conveniently leaving out the children that were victims from that discussion?

She does seem very angry, and I don't blame her for feeling that way. I do too. I was a bit bothered by the "forgiving the abuser" thing. It's okay that she chose to do that, I just think it looks bad in a program featuring the Duggars where they swept everything under the rug.

I wouldn't have been as bothered by the "forgiving the abuser" thing if she explained that it wasn't the same as sweeping it under the rug. If she were to elaborate on that and say that forgiving still acknowledges the fact that they did something horrible and traumatizing to them, then choosing to put that behind them after having the opportunity to be upset (Also emphasizing that it's OKAY to be upset at something like this), it would have been a lot more sensible than just saying that she forgave him.

I know she touched upon how she resented her abuser, but I didn't feel like it was quite enough to get that point across. I'm not entirely sure if this all makes sense but I just feel like it was in very bad taste to bluntly throw that in there knowing what the Duggars did in their interview with Megyn Kelly.

Edited to fix typos, whoops :?

[GodsKnickers]

How is Michelle a victim? Besides of poor fashion taste and atrocious hairstyles?

[Lazuli]

WHere was this stated?

Both organizations emailed me and stated this when I queried them, and I've seen it on their FB pages. I think I saw it in an article, too, but for the life of me I can't remember which publication. I've read hundreds.

[Lazuli]

How is Michelle a victim? Besides of poor fashion taste and atrocious hairstyles?

She's living in a sex cult that subjugates and abuses women. She's been brainwashed. But even in saying that, I believe she is accountable for her behaviour. She enabled Josh to continue to victimize her daughters, and put other girls at risk. She physically and emotionally abused all her children. She lied to police and covered up Josh's crimes. I could go on and on. So, yeah, I do see her as a victim, a perpetrator and an enabler, all rolled up into one.

She makes my blood boil, tbh. But the truth is, no one is all bad. She's damaged, mystified. And I hope she gets help.

*fixed typo

[GodsKnickers]

She's not brainwashed. Not like what they did to the kids. She chose her current situation. She did not grow up superfundie, in the slightest. Someone else here kept trying to make this parallel, that Michelle is some poor delicate flower that grew up knowing nothing different than what she knows now. It's BS. She's no more a victim than my dog is a giraffe.

[YoshiCat]

I suspect Michelle was there to ensure that Jill and Jessa said nothing about what happened to them....even if they were remotely tempted to offer up a bit of information about their family, which I doubt they would ever do.

She also had to make sure that Jill and Jessa don't hear and believe any wrong informant. What if the seminar taught them things like "the victim is never to blame" or it didn't happen because of what the victim was wearing" or "the victim shouldn't be forced to forgive the abuser or be forced to be in the same house/room with the abuser." Michelle needed to be there to tell than right away that that's wrong, lest the idea take root in their brains. Or what if they heard something that made them think Jim Boob or Michelle handled things in a way other than perfect? Michelle had to be there to set Jill and Jessa straight on that. They may be married adults, but JB and DQ are still guarding against any non-Gothard ideas getting in their heads.

[YoshiCat]

I REALLY doubt that JB would pitch that, and I doubt even more that TLC would take it seriously. JB has no intention of "helping" anyone except himself. And, that kind of show would be too much work for him. Plus, TLC wouldn't put that on the air unless JB got real training. That's just asking for all kinds of backlash and potential lawsuits.

I think pitching this show was part of their "we just have to explain that we did everything right and then all of this will go away and we'll get our show back" thinking.

At first, it seemed like they thought the problem was just that people didn't understand that Josh was forgiven, so all was well and good. There's no need to talk about this anymore.

At some point, it must have gotten through to them that people were angry at them for the way they handled the situation. Of course, in their minds, they handled it perfectly. Explaining that didn't seem to help, so they thought they would show it. Look at us counseling a sex abuse victim. And look, after we explain to the victim that they need to take responsibility for their part in the abuse, tell the victim they HAVE to forgive their abuser and tell them they HAVE to put on a smile and act happy, the victim will be better. It's a fool-proof system.

Then, FINALLY, we would all understand that this sexual molestation was NBD, Jim Boob and Michelle are wonderful people who did nothing wrong and nobody would hate Josh anymore. Then they'd get their "# Kids and Counting" show back.

[Lazuli]

She's not brainwashed. Not like what they did to the kids. She chose her current situation. She did not grow up superfundie, in the slightest. Someone else here kept trying to make this parallel, that Michelle is some poor delicate flower that grew up knowing nothing different than what she knows now. It's BS. She's no more a victim than my dog is a giraffe.

I get where you're coming from.

Just wondering what you know about the cycle of abuse, or living in a cult?

The only reason I'm asking is that you can have a fairly strong, self actualized person who gets involved with an abuser (or a group of abusers like in a cult), and the abuser slowly chips away their self esteem and will. Gaslighting can really mess with the mind, can turn a strong person into a shrinking violet. I've seen it happen a few times in my life. I think being isolated in the cult, being shamed and hearing the same catch phrases over and over again, you slowly stop thinking for yourself. You believe the abuser(s). You believe you're the problem. It takes time to get to this point.

I know i can't speak for Michelle. I can only guess at what her experience is, but the accounts I've read from people who used to know her say she is unrecognizable now. She talks like a baby, and has no fire left. She hangs on JB's every word...not the spirited woman she once used to be, mowing the lawn in her bikini.

I could be wrong. I acknowledge that. But it's what I think right now. Yeah, I do think the whole lot are brainwashed. What woman in her right mind would subject herself to that? JB is the only one really getting anything out of it, from what I can see. What's Michelle really getting out of it that life? It would crush my spirit. I know that. No amount of fame is worth the abuse.

And yes...I know she's been abusive, too. I know about the robocalls, the blanket training...and it makes me sick. I also know hurt people hurt people.

I'm not making excuses for her. Just trying to understand.

[smittykins]

I don't see Michelle as a victim because she chose this lifestyle. Her kids didn't.

[ShepherdontheRock]

Well, while in life, I don't think anyone can be singularly a villain or a victim, just as the world isn't divided into good people and death eaters/fundies, and I think everyone has a little good and bad in all of them, I definitely think Michelle is not the victim in this particular situation.

And I wish she'd get that into her airy head.

[2xx1xy1JD]

This whole idea of age appropriate sex ed was causing a giant uproar in my province at the end of the last school year. There were a lot of people upset that teachers would be covering these "sensitive" topics with their children. One of the objections that got the most press was teaching grade 5 students about anal sex. My understanding of the objections was that parents felt that it would be giving the children permission to perform the act. (I know from a friend that is a teacher that this was actually happening at a school she used to work at. So while I personally feel grade 5 might be a bit young, it's obviously information that's needed at some schools.)

Personally, I feel that the more information the children are given, the better equipped they are to make an informed decision. I'm not saying I want my grade 5 kid to be in the position where they have to make the decision! Regardless, I want them to be well informed. I also want them to come home with questions or at least be willing to talk about what they've learned.

I do feel for the teachers having to cover, potentially, uncomfortable topics with students. I know that at my kids' school the teachers do this teaching in pairs.

Sorry if this got a bit off topic. The amendments also include, or don't remove, I no longer remember which, safe touches, keep secrets, and tell secrets.

Are you also in Ontario?

Parts of the curriculum were being distorted by groups opposed who made sensationalized claims. For example, mentioning that HIV can be transmitted by anal sex is NOT the same thing as teaching students to have anal sex.

[HarleyQuinn]

Wait, so RAINN and Darkness To Light wanted to use the Duggars as an example of what NOT to do...but said nothing of the sort? What's the point?

[TheJewAmongUs]

Wait, so RAINN and Darkness To Light wanted to use the Duggars as an example of what NOT to do...but said nothing of the sort? What's the point?

Not really. Back on July 20th D2L made a post addressing comments that had been made about them getting involved with TLC. There were negative comments about Duggar involvement in response to that post. On the 22nd they used "teachable moment" as a response to some of those comments. But they never said anything negative about the Duggars.

facebook.com/DarknessToLight/posts/923989784313657

Darkness to Light: Hi everyone. We appreciate everyone's comments and believe it is healthy to have discussions about child sexual abuse. We believe we should use what happened in the Duggar family as a teachable moment. National incidents like these rarely move forward to address prevention and response. We are thankful TLC is using their platform to ignite change.

July 22 at 6:46am

Darkness to Light: Hi Dxxxx. Thank you for your comment. We should use what happened in the Duggar family as a teachable moment. We believe what happened in the Duggar family is playing out in homes all around this country. Families everywhere do not know how to confront the issue of child sexual abuse. The partnership is an opportunity to change the way that people think about, talk about and react to child sexual abuse.

July 22 at 6:57am

I'd say they were dodging the issue. Teachable moment is some kind of catch all for brushing off controversy.

[IrishCarrie]

I'm in Ireland so couldn't watch the show, and I was actually really fed up about that cos I was dying to! But after catching up on this thread I think on balance I'm glad I missed it. Sickening. So triggering and hurtful and even hateful.

:-(

[GodsKnickers]

Just wondering what you know about the cycle of abuse, or living in a cult?

.

More than you think. It's all I ever knew. I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end.

[ADoyle90815]

I'm actually glad my cable went out Sunday morning, based on the recap as the Duggars turned it into a huge clusterfuck.

[zephyr]

Are you also in Ontario?

Parts of the curriculum were being distorted by groups opposed who made sensationalized claims. For example, mentioning that HIV can be transmitted by anal sex is NOT the same thing as teaching students to have anal sex.

Yes, I'm in Ontario.

And there were protests again today about the curriculum. Sigh.

The whole idea of not providing kids with as much information as possible really bothers me.