"19 Kids" Cancelled

[grandmadugger]

I have a strange feeling JB will be given a position at IBLP

Gil can now finally "payback" JB for the house upgrades.

[DeFrauder]

Sean Penn tied Madonna to a chair and beat her with baseball bat, and he wins an Oscar.

Did this ACTUALLY happen? I in no way am defending or minimizing anything that Sean Penn has done, but this story may have been exaggerated. I only say this because the different versions of the story circulating say he beat her for 2 or 7 hours with the bat and if this was true she would be dead or at best severely beaten to the point of being in ICU in which case there would be no way that he could escape charges even if Madonna had tried to protect him. That aside--I have no doubt that Penn was abusive.

I say this because I know a woman who was beaten by a baseball bat for only a few minutes and she had her face broken to the point they had to use some ribs to reconstruct it. Before reconstruction, however, she was in the hospital for weeks just to recover from the beating. The first 2 weeks she was laying in ICU in an induced coma. Seeing her laying there was the most horrific thing I had ever seen.

Anyway, these are good points that all these people like Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Sean Penn etc seemingly get a free pass. Not everyone who is accused of sexual misconduct has been found guilty of it (yet another can of worms), but there is definitely some selective "looking the other way" when it comes to beloved celebrities.

The people that are minimizing what Josh has done because they adore him so much are doing the same thing that people who minimize what Bill Cosby or Sean Penn has done. Just looking the other way.

[Dandruff]

And "purpose to."

"Neat."

[lascuba]

Did this ACTUALLY happen? I in no way am defending or minimizing anything that Sean Penn has done, but this story may have been exaggerated. I only say this because the different versions of the story circulating say he beat her for 2 or 7 hours with the bat and if this was true she would be dead or at best severely beaten to the point of being in ICU in which case there would be no way that he could escape charges even if Madonna had tried to protect him. That aside--I have no doubt that Penn was abusive.

I say this because I know a woman who was beaten by a baseball bat for only a few minutes and she had her face broken to the point they had to use some ribs to reconstruct it. Before reconstruction, however, she was in the hospital for weeks just to recover from the beating. The first 2 weeks she was laying in ICU in an induced coma. Seeing her laying there was the most horrific thing I had ever seen.

Anyway, these are good points that all these people like Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, Sean Penn etc seemingly get a free pass. Not everyone who is accused of sexual misconduct has been found guilty of it (yet another can of worms), but there is definitely some selective "looking the other way" when it comes to beloved celebrities.

The people that are minimizing what Josh has done because they adore him so much are doing the same thing that people who minimize what Bill Cosby or Sean Penn has done. Just looking the other way.

From what I remember, he had her tied up for several hours, but there was no specific time given for how long he hit her.I got the impression that for most of the time he had her tied up he was terrorizing her with the bat. He did hit her, but it wasn't for several hours straight. Like you said, she'd have been severely injured or even dead if he had.

[lascuba]

"Neat."

SMH I can't believe y'all forgot "special."

[DeFrauder]

Regarding the non-reality shows: when the whole Stephen Collins things came out, I was upset. I grew up watching 7th Heaven and enjoyed catching it on UP from time to time as an adult. I haven't watched it since the news broke of what he had done. I'm not sure I could ever watch it the same way again. It's hard to separate a beloved character from the actor in a show that was memorable. To the fans it's almost as if Reverend Camden had done the act himself. What he did was awful but he also wasn't the only character on the show. I don't think that Mr. Collins should receive any further royalties from 7th Heaven's reruns but the other actors on the show shouldn't be punished for the acts of somebody else. Long answer to your question: Personally I don't think that it's morally wrong to continue broadcasting the show and it should be the viewers choice to continue watching the program or not.

Edit: double negatives, oops

The royalties thing is an issue, too. There are some cases of people who did some really heinous things and people want them to lose their state pensions. I don't think it is legally possible to take away someone's earnings or entitlements when they are not proceeds from a crime.

I think that I agree with you. The character in the show did not commit these crimes. The show itself is not the harm.

In the Duggar case, however, the stars of the show are committing crimes against other stars of the show. Furthermore, they are glorifying the abuse and creating further harm because we now understand their entire lifestyle as a response to sexual abuse.

I do not think that anyone would watch 7Th Heaven and come away believing that it is ok to view child porn. I DO BELIEVE that people will watch 19Kids and come away believing that incest is normal and expected, even if wrong, and the way to combat incest is to create a highly sexually repressive family culture where siblings must cover up to avoid defrauding each other and can never be alone together just in case they succumb to temptation.

[imjustasteph]

Hypothetically, Jill and Jessa don't have to lie, admit lying, or change their story.

They could, hypothetically, say, "We have been saying we all forgave Josh, and that's true. However, since that interview, we've heard and read so much about CSA, and have realized that the effects are longer-lasting and deeper than we knew. We've actually recognized a few effects on us, and we realize that when we said we weren't harmed, it hurt others, even though we thought we were saying the right thing. Here's the upshot: if you are an abuse victim or the parent of an abuse victim, seek treatment. Be honest. Don't let it live in you, and don't let your abuser get away with it, because he will seek additional victims. We are speaking to counselors from [RAINN, Darkness to Light] now, and it's a real relief. We're sorry our words were hurtful to those who shared similar experiences."

No, they won't. But there *are* words they could say, if they wanted, that wouldn't admit that they'd lied, and still wouldn't cling to the prior claims.

[SassyPants]

Hypothetically, Jill and Jessa don't have to lie, admit lying, or change their story.

They could, hypothetically, say, "We have been saying we all forgave Josh, and that's true. However, since that interview, we've heard and read so much about CSA, and have realized that the effects are longer-lasting and deeper than we knew. We've actually recognized a few effects on us, and we realize that when we said we weren't harmed, it hurt others, even though we thought we were saying the right thing. Here's the upshot: if you are an abuse victim or the parent of an abuse victim, seek treatment. Be honest. Don't let it live in you, and don't let your abuser get away with it, because he will seek additional victims. We are speaking to counselors from [RAINN, Darkness to Light] now, and it's a real relief. We're sorry our words were hurtful to those who shared similar experiences."

No, they won't. But there *are* words they could say, if they wanted, that wouldn't admit that they'd lied, and still wouldn't cling to the prior claims.

The Duggars would not know the truth or the ability to express such if it smacked them all in the face. The kids have been bathed in JB's BS waters, and watched his antics from day one. JB is a slimy schiester... He was the family's headship and role model. He isolated the kids so that the only example that they learned was JB's. Josh's abuse was bad, JB's, far, far worse.

Schooling, jobs, relationships...these kids are all working from such a deficit.

No matter what I think about the Dillard's "missionary" work, at least they got themselves away from JB- it's a start.

[Gregaid]

I'm betting it will be a matter of time before another network picks them up. The "UP" channel carries the Bates Family show. It is a religion based channel that would love to take up the ratings that TLC will lose from this. And considering that it is the Duggars that brought attention to the Bates, I'm willing to bet that good ole Jim Blob will be calling in a favor or 3. As for the documentary- I'm not sure I would want to see Jill & Jessa involved. Both down played what happened to them. While they may have recovered and it is very possible Josh did "grow out" of this now that he has a wife to grope whenever he pleases, down playing will do no favors to other victims of incest victims.

[grandmadugger]

SMH I can't believe y'all forgot "special."

Jill's blog post:

Ya'll I was totally blessed to find this amazing shirt at the thrift store the other day for only a quarter. Remember buy used and save the difference. So yeah ummm, it's not really modest and that's crazy. So I purposed to make it a really neat and special shirt. Ahhhh, follow along as I turn it into a totally modern modest shirt.

[nokidsmom]

The Duggars would not know the truth or the ability to express such if it smacked them all in the face. The kids have been bathed in JB's BS waters, and watched his antics from day one. JB is a slimy schiester... He was the family's headship and role model. He isolated the kids so that the only example that they learned was JB's. Josh's abuse was bad, JB's, far, far worse.

Schooling, jobs, relationships...these kids are all working from such a deficit.

No matter what I think about the Dillard's "missionary" work, at least they got themselves away from JB- it's a start.

Watching the Kelly interviews with JB and J'chelle it was pretty clear that both were convinced they were telling the unvarnished truth in spite of the spin and deflections. Which pretty much convinced me that they (and JB in particular) have completely hosed their kids into thinking their lines of BS. Which is why the girls are convinced it was no big deal and they forgave Josh. From their unique perspective, they are convinced that they are telling the truth and will never admit to lying.

Agree that it's good that the Dillards got away. The longer they can stay away from the TTH, the better. Not sure what they will bring to the mission field but if it gives Jill a clue about her crazy and sick family, it will be worth it.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

I was far too triggered to watch the megyn Kelly interviews, but just reading transcripts here made me, as an adult survivor of csa, want to rend my garments, throw ashes on my head and wail...they were so wrong on so many levels and I cannot imagine anything useful in having those young women on that tlc special except as an example of how not to handle csa.

Edited for oops.

[FundieFarmer]

I don't know that another network will pick them up. There's enough smoke and mirrors that TLC can say they didn't know this happened. Any other network that picks them up after this can't say that, and I don't know that the general public would let the network get away with it.

[GiggleOfGirls]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Duggars still got invites to speak at Christian homeschool conventions. Their brand of fundy has become so prevalent in the Christian homeschool world (between Above Rubies, VF, and Gothard all supporting or requiring homeschooling) and I think that's where most of their supporters still are.

On another note: I finally got my Headship to watch the JB/M/MK interview with me last night. Poor man had a wicked hangover this morning. I had only read the transcripts previously. The actual interview was so much worse than the words indicated :shock: We made it about two minutes into the actual interview with the daughters before being completely sloshed and calling it quits for the night. I think we'll try to watch it again after taking a couple days to recover.

[DeFrauder]

I'm betting it will be a matter of time before another network picks them up. The "UP" channel carries the Bates Family show. It is a religion based channel that would love to take up the ratings that TLC will lose from this. And considering that it is the Duggars that brought attention to the Bates, I'm willing to bet that good ole Jim Blob will be calling in a favor or 3. As for the documentary- I'm not sure I would want to see Jill & Jessa involved. Both down played what happened to them. While they may have recovered and it is very possible Josh did "grow out" of this now that he has a wife to grope whenever he pleases, down playing will do no favors to other victims of incest victims.

I think that we need to remember that Jill and Jessa are each very young, still. They do not necessarily understand how the abuse has effected them. I doubt they understand all the issues surrounding sexual abuse because of their sheltered life.

Instead of being MAD at Jill and Jessa, I think that we should consider that their need to defend Josh and minimize the abuse is part of their victimization. It is an extension of the abuse, and I believe that it is a rather common reaction to being abused by a loved one.

Now that the whole world knows, discussion of the abuse is going to become a major part of their lives. As they mature and acquire more information about sexual abuse, its effects and the best practices for treatment of sexual abuse, they may very well change their tune.

Not all Christians (even not all conservative, legalistic ones) are as uneducated and foolish as JB. (I realize that he is the responsible adult in all of this, but I cut him some slack for being genuinely ill-informed and dim-witted. I think that he probably did what he thought was best, rather than just not care about what happened to the victims. If JB and M did not care they would not have come up with the stupid no contact between siblings rules). The kids are going to come in contact with people that know better about these things than JB and I assume that their ideas will evolve.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

I don't know how many more series they could have pumped out before the show came to a natural death. I thought for sure before the girls got married that there would only be a series or two left but the popularity of the weddings took me by surprise. Suddenly Jessa and Jill were everywhere you looked and they pulled the whole show along with them. However, I don't think interest in Jill and Jessa would have lasted too much longer and aside from Jinger or Jana's wedding there would have been little else going on in TTH to capture the imagination.

I will be watching to see how many leghumpers they can retain without a weekly show and umptymillion reruns. My theory is that people really became attached to them through the young children and that's what made the reruns so popular. Will they have the same appeal to the populace through stilted episodes featuring teenagers uploaded to YouTube and mini-sermons from Ben on Instagram? I doubt it. At some point even their ardent supporters are going to lose interest. People with drive and intelligence would capture this ready-made fan base to start a money-making blog but that doesn't describe the Duggars. JB is going to think inside the box and attempt to make money the same way he has always made money-- selling his family on a reality show and/or speaking appearances. If the Alive appearance is anything to go by none of the family will make any effort to become dynamic speakers so that avenue of income will dry up as well.

[BunnyBee]

I don't know how many more series they could have pumped out before the show came to a natural death. I thought for sure before the girls got married that there would only be a series or two left but the popularity of the weddings took me by surprise. Suddenly Jessa and Jill were everywhere you looked and they pulled the whole show along with them. However, I don't think interest in Jill and Jessa would have lasted too much longer and aside from Jinger or Jana's wedding there would have been little else going on in TTH to capture the imagination.

I will be watching to see how many leghumpers they can retain without a weekly show and umptymillion reruns. My theory is that people really became attached to them through the young children and that's what made the reruns so popular. Will they have the same appeal to the populace through stilted episodes featuring teenagers uploaded to YouTube and mini-sermons from Ben on Instagram? I doubt it. At some point even their ardent supporters are going to lose interest. People with drive and intelligence would capture this ready-made fan base to start a money-making blog but that doesn't describe the Duggars. JB is going to think inside the box and attempt to make money the same way he has always made money-- selling his family on a reality show and/or speaking appearances. If the Alive appearance is anything to go by none of the family will make any effort to become dynamic speakers so that avenue of income will dry up as well.

In 15 years, you can bet your damn bottom dollar, I will sit down and watch Josie's wedding special

[PegBundyOfFundies]

I just read the Duggar's and TCL's statement. I hope this "special" isn't another Duggar based pile of BS with a few blurbs from some legitimate organizations. Also, I wonder if Chickadee (Anna) from Honey Boo Boo will be involved with it. She is an ex TLC personality.

I was right to wait to read them because I just want to GRRRRRR right now.

I saw a couple tweets from people saying that she should be showcased alongside Jill and Jessa on the special, to kind of counteract whatever inane minimalizing BS they say. She's similar to them in being a former TLC starlet and a survivor of CSA, but I always admired how she straight out called out her mom for being wrong for choosing to hang around her abuser, and was able to realize what happened to her was wrong and unacceptable. I remember her Access Hollywood (I think) interview, and she did an excellent job.

[Alicja]

I saw a couple tweets from people saying that she should be showcased alongside Jill and Jessa on the special, to kind of counteract whatever inane minimalizing BS they say. She's similar to them in being a former TLC starlet and a survivor of CSA, but I always admired how she straight out called out her mom for being wrong for choosing to hang around her abuser, and was able to realize what happened to her was wrong and unacceptable. I remember her Access Hollywood (I think) interview, and she did an excellent job.

I second this. I really admire Anna for being so outspoken.

[Daenerys]

I don't know that another network will pick them up. There's enough smoke and mirrors that TLC can say they didn't know this happened. Any other network that picks them up after this can't say that, and I don't know that the general public would let the network get away with it.

Yeah, I mean, how could that ever work? You can't even talk about '19 Children' without having to mention Josh in some way, and no network would want to touch him with a bargepole.

I can see UP being happy to feature some of the girls in a crossover/visit kind of way, but not the whole family.

[MoonFace]

So who thinks TLC paid JB off to keep him calm? In the Kelly interview, he clearly made his point that he would not go down without a fight... I wonder if TLC paid them.... Why else would the Duggars agree to participate in a documentary about this abuse when they refused to call it abuse and refer to the girls as victims in the first place?

Unless there is some sort of morality clause (and who would have thought this Holier Than Thou family would need that? ) I'm willing to bet that TLC paid off Jimmy Boob

[Marissap]

I am totally against Jill and Jessa being involved in this documentary if all they are going to do is minimize the abuse. However, I wonder why TLC isn't also involving the other girls? Now Jill and Jessa are being put in this position of "family abuse spokeswomen."

I really can't see this happening if RAINN is involved. They are such a reputable resource for those that need it and no way would they let people who minimize their abuse share a platform....

[JenniferJuniper]

Yeah, I mean, how could that ever work? You can't even talk about '19 Children' without having to mention Josh in some way, and no network would want to touch him with a bargepole.

I can see UP being happy to feature some of the girls in a crossover/visit kind of way, but not the whole family.

I doubt the Duggars will be picked up by any other network.

The show was getting tired as it was. Babies and weddings are nice, but they become repetitive eventually. All but one of the boys are in their teens this year and the youngest girls just don't have the same spark young Hannie and Jackson did.

TLC was pumping in a good amount of cash to try to keep the show semi-interesting. All those 'round the world trips would have been far too rich for a low-end cable channel to afford. And it's my understanding the Duggars were commanding quite a large sum for each episode in the last few years. With multiple adults and several families looking to cash in, it's not likely most cable channels could afford them.

And this all has to be balanced against the risk factor. The world knows Josh molested his sisters and his parents covered for him. If a channel takes them on, they have to be concerned about other revelations involving the Duggars, sexual assault related or otherwise. When you compare what benefits the Duggars might bring and weigh them against the cost and the risk, I don't see them as an attractive option for a show elsewhere. Not when there are plenty of other fundie weirdos out there.

May I nominate Jill Rodriguez et al? They'll probably work for free if you provide them with a 2 bedroom 1 bath with a back yard that's not on a cliff.

[FJismyheadship]

RE: Ben Seewald

1: He worked for his dad repairing windshields.

2: He went to an accredited college, got an associates degree in business management, graduated with honors, and made the Deans list on several occasions, meaning he had to hold at least a 3.6 GPA

3: He worked for a black real estate agent, had at least two gay friends that I know of, and invited them to his wedding (they did not attend, but only because we had a choir concert the day before and there waa no way they would have made it.)

4: He is very outspoken against human trafficking and rape. Yeah, mostly we hear about abortion. But he has in the past spoken out against rape an human trafficking.

There is a lot to snark on Ben about, but he has enough to get a job in a lot of places. He is not limited to McDonalds. Hell, he has more credentials than I do and I just got an excellent job making $10 an hour at a call center. If I can do it, so can he.

For all we know, he has a job and they are keeping it quiet. We all know they like their privacy and try to retain some of it.

[Alicja]

RE: Ben Seewald

1: He worked for his dad repairing windshields.

2: He went to an accredited college, got an associates degree in business management, graduated with honors, and made the Deans list on several occasions, meaning he had to hold at least a 3.6 GPA

3: He worked for a black real estate agent, had at least two gay friends that I know of, and invited them to his wedding (they did not attend, but only because we had a choir concert the day before and there waa no way they would have made it.)

4: He is very outspoken against human trafficking and rape. Yeah, mostly we hear about abortion. But he has in the past spoken out against rape an human trafficking.

There is a lot to snark on Ben about, but he has enough to get a job in a lot of places. He is not limited to McDonalds. Hell, he has more credentials than I do and I just got an excellent job making $10 an hour at a call center. If I can do it, so can he.

For all we know, he has a job and they are keeping it quiet. We all know they like their privacy and try to retain some of it.

Thanks for sharing this. It's refreshing to know that he has gay friends, given his fire and brimstone style of preaching.