Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Rumors - Part 2

[drivingmishcrazy]

I'm beginning to wonder if certain behaviors in the boys are tied to this, like JD doing the whole police and fireman thing and everything (possibly having a compulsion to "save" or protect people since he couldn't protect his sisters?), Joe being practically attached to his sister's hip and seeming to go a step further in kindness/thoughtfulness than most guys his age when it comes to the girls in his family? Josiah seemingly being "at odds" sometimes with the family and disappearing for centuries it seems like? Ben acting like a damn guard dog?

I also hate to think how this is going to impact the little girls and the M kids. Even if they aren't at risk and nothing ever happens to them, they are going to find out someday. Can you imagine being 20 year old Jennifer or 18 year old Mack and having someone ask you about your brother/dad's past as an abuser? Josie googling the family name and seeing all of this? I don't care how much they put the kids on lockdown after this, they can't hide them from this forever.

I know it was said up thread about one of the girls requesting the unredacted report be destroyed and I honestly can't imagine. To already feel ashamed and horrified and then to worry about your name coming up as one of the ones this happened to? I don't know what they're going through, but I can't say I blame any of those girls for not wanting to be named, or wanting to be left alone. Could that be a fear or possibly force the girls to relive the abuse again in their minds?

[Sweet Fellowship]

Josh was at an age where he could be held accountable for his actions. Let's not make excuses for him. He'll have to live with this the rest of his life and it's going to be tough, but I personally can't feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the innocents in this, the victims and his children.

[jerichojones]

I'm intentionally staying away from the comments on articles, else my blood pressure will rise.

Gay rights? No! Evil! You're going to hell! Molested young girls? Oh that's cool, the Lord forgives ya! I really do feel sick to my stomach right now. Josh Duggar is despicable.

It pisses me off that i'm apparently the devil in their eyes because i'm destroying family values but if I were a straight christian man who fondled little children, i'd be perfectly fine in their eyes. Surely they can see how fucked up that is. I mean, surely, right? they can't be that blind????

wait, of course they are.

[Toothfairy]

This is why abuse community gets swept under the rug. o Anyone can rape or molest someone. It doesn't matter what age or race. Doesn't matter income level or fame. Fans keep bringing up it happened 12 years ago. So what. People dragged bill Cosby. The Penn State Abuse went on for years. A 14yo should know better. Why aren't these people feeling sorry for his victims not the abuser. I feel sorry for the thumper kids if they were abuse their parents would sweep in under the rug. Christians want to take away rights from others but yet when it comes to abuse it's acceptable.

[bekkah]

I am absolutely sickened by this. This might be the final nail in the coffin, they got too big and people started digging. If they didn't have the high amount of people covers, this may never have come to light.

He has lost his job, owes back taxes and will be a child predator for the rest of his life. He has received his punishment because of the public nature of his family. This will not be swept under the rug.

I think the Duggars may be gone from our lives pretty quick. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

[JenniferJuniper]

I wonder if these police reports were somehow leaked by Jessa and Ben. What if they recently found out they are having a girl and wanted to protect their daughter.

They weren't leaked. They were obtained through the Freedom of Information act by someone who either knew of the incident or simply knew enough details of the rumor. This would include a very large number of people, including anyone who simply read enough details of the rumors on the internet.

I very much doubt one of the victims wanted to dredge this back up again. I especially doubt someone like Ben, who is one of the people who has the most to lose when the show is cancelled, would ever dream of taking such steps. If he doesn't want Josh alone with his daughter, it would be pretty easy to prevent that from happening. I've kept my kids at a very long arm's distance from my pervy uncle-in-law all their lives.

This was done by someone or a group that wanted to bring the Duggars down.

[Special friend]

If I read the police report correctly, the first time somebody told JB and Michelle about this was in March 2002. The incidents had happened then and before. So Josh was 13 at the time or had JUST turned 14 (his birthday is in March).

He got sent to the JTTH, or whatever it was, in March of 2003 and all the girls reported that the behaviour stopped after that. So, he was 14 at the time. (Apparently the camp stated on the 17th of March? And very likely it took at least a couple days to organize his stay there.)

So, at the time when these things occurred, Josh would have been 13 and 14. That does not make it right! But does a child really have a full understanding of sexuality at this point? Or of the consequences for groping somebody else? Specifically when likely he has seen his parents doing it all his life and likely thought it was normal? (Or was possibly touched inappropriately at some point himself?)

I am not saying that it was in any way shape or form okay. It really wasn´t. But I think we have to make a difference between a 13/14 year old child doing this (and likely having no understanding of what exactly he was doing) and a 16/17 year old. (Or a grown up!) These are different cases, IMO.

IMO, at that age, the parents and the restrictive environment are to blame more than the child himself.

However, of course he needs to be punished and have it explained to him what exactly he did, why it is wrong and HOW DAMAGING it is to others. He would have no understanding of the full implications at that age if nobody explained them to him.

Unfortunately, likely nobody did - even after they found out about it. :(

[Jencendiary]

Wouldn't it be delicious if it were Anonymous?

[Pixie_Ham]

popping up again because thoughts keep striking me. Haven't got the time to pull everything into a coherent argument.

Another thing that strikes me is that the argument the Duggars are using almost (in a warped way) makes sense in consideration of their world view. Ok so bear with me as I'm sort of scratching the limits of my brain. The way I try to work out an argument is always to try and anticipate and work out the 'but why would they think that' factor. As in people say Gay marriage is wrong, but why?

So here goes. The Duggars treat everything. EVERYTHING sexual as wrong. Holding hands: wrong. Hugging: wrong. Kissing: Wrong...you get where I'm going with this.

But surely by logical definition if EVERYTHING is wrong then NOTHING can be. If even holding hands with a girl you're not married to is evil how can you say something is more wrong? How do you implement a scale? There's nothing to compare it to because nothing is 'right'. In order to fully understand the concept of wrong we must have a counter balance of right by which to compare it because without it there can be no way to define wrong. To frame where I'm coming at this from I'll refer to Nietzsche "truth vs untruth"

A faith in truth which never questions the value of truth suggests that the value of truth cannot be demonstrated and is probably false. So if the truth is that anything sexual is wrong but they never examine what is not wrong in that context the original truth is wrong. I think!

In this sense you can see how the Duggars are trying to justify this: Josh is wrong, sure but so are Jill and Derrick because of that front hug, and Ben and Jessa because of those lustful eyes. They have no counterbalance. Not saying it's right, in fact it's incredibly warped. I guess I'm just trying to understand how any human could rationalise sweeping their daughter's abuse under the rug.

Also saying the ordeal has brought you closer to God. I guess this is fine, the concept of Grace means God forgives your sin, but Humanity still reserves the right to Judge and Punish the crimes. I'm sure this is how the courts used to explain execution in past centuries.

Final point: does this also explain that weird Pa Kellar comment at Josh's wedding where he made Josh promise to not watch porn or something. THEY ALL KNEW AND DID NOTHING. Gah!

Long rambling paragraph. Sorry just trying to work it out in my mind. Probably giving more thought to it that needs be.

[Toothfairy]

You cannot convince me that a 15 year old, no matter how babied, did not know it was wrong to fondle his 4-8 year old sisters. That's not teenage hormonal frustration, it's not Flowers in the Attic, it's CHILD MOLESTATION.

The slender man kids are 12 and charged with murder. An 17yo was charged with molestation when the father caught him molesting his son. Age sometimes doesn't matter. JimChelle was trying to protect their kids from the evil world but the evil world was right in front of them.

[Eternalbluepearl]

Pa Keller sucks. I hope he can sleep at night knowing his granddaughter lives with Josh Duggar.

[jerichojones]

They weren't leaked. They were obtained through the Freedom of Information act by someone who either knew of the incident or simply knew enough details of the rumor. This would include a very large number of people, including anyone who simply read enough details of the rumors on the internet.

I very much doubt one of the victims wanted to dredge this back up again. I especially doubt someone like Ben, who is one of the people who has the most to lose when the show is cancelled, would ever dream of taking such steps. If he doesn't want Josh alone with his daughter, it would be pretty easy to prevent that from happening. I've kept my kids at a very long arm's distance from my pervy uncle-in-law all their lives.

This was done by someone or a group that wanted to bring the Duggars down.

Agreed. Surely it would have been easier to keep Josh away from his kid if this wasn't out and Josh wasn't fired from his cushy DC job. What's more is that it would be hard to hide that they were behind the leak from the rest of the duggar clan, so not only would the gravy train be stopping, they'd probably be losing family. Yes, the family is messed up and has caused so much damage to those kids, but there is love there and there is support, and being cut out of the family would be really traumatic for any of those girls.

obviously, i think it wouldn't be the worst thing, but those girls don't deserve any more pain.

Also, the idea of a 13 year old not fully understanding sexuality... i can see that. my cousin still wanted to play doctor with me when we were 11/12. I was skeezed out and uncomfortable with it, but I didn't understand why. I had a christian upbringing, but it was a fairly liberal one, and I sure as hell understood a lot more about sex than josh would have. It doesn't make things right, because regardless of whether you understand sexuality, he would have known that fondling his 4yo sister was objectively wrong. He touched sisters while they were sleeping, which suggests he knew it wasn't the right thing to do. His actions that are in the police report scream of knowing there was something wrong in what he was doing and there are no excuses, but I can't help but wonder about all of the elements here.

[Cactus]

I'm almost certain Jessa told Ben, based on his reactions to Josh and Anna in the most recent episode. I would not be surprised if Ben pulled a Nolan Manteufel and posted about it/told-all. I would argue that such a tell-all is misguided during an active case, but here, given that the statute of limitations is up, it might end up actually doing some good, provided the victims all consented. It might get the leghumpers to face reality, and draw attention to Gothard and his dangerous, abuse-riddled cult.

(emphasis mine)

But did they all consent? If one of the elder married girls (perhaps Jessa) conspired to leak the report, why would Joy (by way of her parents) go to such lengths to have the report publicly expunged? Is it possible they were not all aware that this would happen?

[Toothfairy]

They weren't leaked. They were obtained through the Freedom of Information act by someone who either knew of the incident or simply knew enough details of the rumor. This would include a very large number of people, including anyone who simply read enough details of the rumors on the internet.

I very much doubt one of the victims wanted to dredge this back up again. I especially doubt someone like Ben, who is one of the people who has the most to lose when the show is cancelled, would ever dream of taking such steps. If he doesn't want Josh alone with his daughter, it would be pretty easy to prevent that from happening. I've kept my kids at a very long arm's distance from my pervy uncle-in-law all their lives.

This was done by someone or a group that wanted to bring the Duggars down.

I agree. how did Hillarys emails get out? A political playing dirty. I think that's the same thing happening here. Josh works for the frc. He also supports Huckabee and use to support Santroum. Someone with connections leaked this out. Since JB and Josh likes to play politician this would've came out eventually. People in dc love to dig up people's past.

[VelociRapture]

At the end of the day, Josh was old enough to know what he did was wrong. I highly doubt that things happened exactly the way the Duggars said they did in those reports - for instance, I wouldn't be surprised if the girls were coached a bit to downplay some things that had happened. I also wouldn't be surprised if the fifth sister lied about not being abused or repressed what had happened; it is possible that she was truthful, but I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't.

Is it good to consider factors that may have led to Josh doing what he did? Absolutely, especially if doing so could prevent another child from being harmed. Is it ok to use those factors to excuse his behavior or say he isn't a sexual offender? No. Its possible to be both a victim and an offender at the same time. I can both pity Josh for the circumstances that led to the decision he made, while also condemning him for harming innocent victims in such a way.

I sincerely hope that Josh receives real counseling of some sort - both for the way he was raised and so he can understand why what he did was so incredibly wrong. I don't know if he can be charged with anything due to the length of time that has passed, but I would like to see him held responsible somehow. I'd also love to see his parents held responsible for negligence and endangering their children the way they did. I want to see the younger kids in a truly safe environment. Mostly, I want to see the victims provided with counseling and a safe environment to live in. And I would really like to see someone sit them down and explain to them that what happened wasn't their fault.

[singsingsing]

Yes, the vast majority of 13-year-olds understand that it is wrong to grope other people without their consent, let alone their own pre-pubescent siblings. No 13-year-old in his right mind is going to repeatedly grope his little sisters over a period of months or years, no matter how hormonal or sexually curious he is.

Josh wasn't playing doctor. This wasn't 'I'll show you mine if you show me yours' or a 'hey let's practice kissing' incident. He targeted and preyed upon his younger siblings, and from the reports (I still need to go back and read them more carefully) it seems like he may have even been escalating before he was sent away to 'treatment'.

Josh's behaviour was wrong and he was most definitely old enough to know it full well. Most importantly, it's indicative of a very serious problem which should have been addressed with REAL counselling and intervention.

[Special friend]

...

So here goes. The Duggars treat everything. EVERYTHING sexual as wrong. Holding hands: wrong. Hugging: wrong. Kissing: Wrong...you get where I'm going with this.

But surely by logical definition if EVERYTHING is wrong then NOTHING can be. If even holding hands with a girl you're not married to is evil how can you say something is more wrong? How do you implement a scale?

...

You are very right that Duggars believe all sins are equally evil. And in a way, I think this really contributed to this situation.

Very likely the "disciplining" Josh received consisted of him being beaten with an implement and being threatened to never do it again. So - likely the same response he got for other "sins" such as lying, disobeying, etc. (Although, maybe more licks, who knows.)

My point is: With that method, he would have known that it was wrong. But just like a child will probably at some point in his life lie again, even though he knows he will be beaten for it - he did it again.

Very likely he had no understanding of just HOW WRONG and HOW HARMFUL it was. That would require somebody actually talking to him ans explaining the consequences in the victim´s lives. Not just beating him.

And it would require an understanding within the family that not all sins are equally bad. SOME ARE WORSE than others. However, based on their warped believes, they were not able to make him understand that.

ETA: Please don´t think I am excusing his behaviour. I am not, it was incredibly wrong (although he probably did not understand the full extend of what he was doing). I am just trying to point out how the messed-up cult they follow actually made this situation possible / more likely. And maybe other children are at risk, too, based on these dangerous teachings.

[jerichojones]

(emphasis mine)

But did they all consent? If one of the elder married girls (perhaps Jessa) conspired to leak the report, why would Joy (by way of her parents) go to such lengths to have the report publicly expunged? Is it possible they were not all aware that this would happen?

Given she's a minor and JB basically controls her, it's not necessarily her choice. I mean, do you really think she had any say in whether they were getting the report expunged? She couldn't have said no if JB wanted it done. It was to protect Josh more than her, let's be honest here.

I'm actually surprised JB didn't try and get it expunged earlier. Perhaps he was arrogant enough to think it might not come to light. Maybe it wouldn't if he wasn't so fame hungry.

[VelociRapture]

Posted this in the first thread, but thought it might be helpful to post it again for anyone with questions:

I'm willing to do a more in-depth rundown of the report later if needed. For now though, here are some of the important points:

- The accused (Josh) confessed.

- There are five alleged victims, all of whom gave statements to the Police that are included in the report. In the beginning pages it states the personal information about each victim (most blurred out) - four of the five victims appear to live in the same location as the accused.

- Because of the above information, and the blatant stating that four of the victims are children of Michelle and James Duggar, we can be certain that Josh allegedly assaulted some of his siblings.

- The report stems from a second investigation into the matter by Springdale Police. The first investigation was conducted by an Officer that JimBob knew from his days as a car salesman and who he had speak with Josh about what had happened. The second investigation appears to have been conducted 3 or so years later, when Josh was around 17 years of age.

- The investigation was sparked when a letter concerning it was discovered in a book that had been borrowed from the Duggars to a member of their Church (or loaned by the Church to someone outside it). At the time the letter was discovered and turned in, the Duggars were set to appear on Oprah's show - the network received an email concerning the letter and informed the Department of Human Services.

- The statements included are from the victims, a person who may be John-David, Michelle, and JimBob.

Victim 1: Awoke in the night while sleeping on a couch or chair when they felt someone removing the blanket from them. No one else was in the room and clothes were on. What happened is not clear, but something bad was done (possible touching of the breasts). The person responsible later apologized to the victims and was sent away for a while to Little Rock. When he returned, he seemed more "tame" than before. Boys and Girls more separated after this and parents more aware of what is going on. Also stated that they were told by JimBob that the accused also touched a non-sibling female on the breasts while they were babysitting and had fallen asleep on the couch. The victim did not witness this happen, but the accused later confessed to doing so. Also states that in 2003 the accused confessed his crimes to the Church Elders.

Victim 2: States that a "long time ago" they had been touched inappropriately because the accused was struggling with morals. They informed their parents and the accused was sent away for three months. The accused asked for forgiveness, returned home, and turned back to God. States that the accused had pulled up their shirt to scratch the skin on their back and possibly touched the victim's chest. States nothing further occurred since the accused returned home.

Victim 3: States they were inappropriately touched while someone was reading a book to the kids. One person was on the arm of the chair and the other was on the couch. Person reading the book dropped it and ran out of the room. Upon further questioning, the victim stated that the accused lifted their dress and pulled the pants they were wearing beneath the dress down. The accused touched their privates and it felt weird. Victim pointed to the buttocks on the drawing and said it happened on the outside. States that no one else saw it happen and their mother was informed. It appears the accused was sent to Little Rock the next day and that someone went to police and told them what happened.

Victim 4: Upon asking if the victim knew why they were there, the victim immediately began to cry. Something had happened about four years earlier and they couldn't remember a lot of it. Victim was doing laundry and the accused appears to have put their hand up her dress, but the victim doesn't recall what happened. Victim later heard that the accused had also touched someone else on the breast while they were asleep. Indicated two more possible victims, that nothing else has happened since, and the accused asked for forgiveness. Victim also states that they are having trouble trusting someone, but that they do feel safe at home.

Statement from Unidentified Duggar Child: Child unclear about what was going on. Knew parents had talked with the accused. Indicates accused did something to two people, but doesn't appear certain about circumstances. States that they were out with their parents, grandparents, and some of the kids when father received a call from someone at the house. They were asked to come home because of something that had happened. Indicated they returned home because the accused needed forgiveness. Child unsure what happened, but that the accused may have touched another child while that child was sitting on his lap. Indicates that accused was sent away for a few months (starting in July) and due to this incident something was called off. States their father took accused to speak with a State Trooper and the situation has brought the family closer to God. Indicates there is one person that makes them uncomfortable because they placed a hand on their hip in the past, but doesn't seem to have been assaulted.

Statement from Unidentified Duggar Child 2: Indicates that accused touched one or more people. Found out when parents told them during a family meeting. Indicates there were two family meetings a year apart - the first was concerning one incident and the second was because the accused did it again. Accused was sent to Little Rock after the second meeting. States that the Church Elders were informed. When asked for the names of the Elders, the child didn't want to say and indicated they should speak with JimBob.

(Note: while you are able to deduce which person is which in the reports, I have chosen not to include some of that information in my summary)

Statement from Unidentified Duggar Child 3: States that they like hugs and kisses from their parents. Does not like high-fives. Child indicates certain areas are ok to touch (like the arm), but others are not (like the peepee holder). Child indicates touching on the bottom is ok sometimes. Officer asks when its ok. Child indicates when you are being spanked. Child states they have a rod used for spanking. Officer asks about bruising and child says there are no bruises left. Child did not witness any inappropriate touching and was not asked about it by their parents.

(Possible) Victim 5: States that the accused had apologized for an incident four years earlier. States that it occurred one night when they slept on the Duggar's couch. Everyone was home at the time and it appears everyone was in their rooms. States they don't really remember much. Indicates that either the accused touched their breasts or they were told the accused touched someone else's breasts. Either way, someone had not been around the Duggars' house much ever since. Indicates that the accusations were brought to light due to a letter someone had written concerning them. Also states that the accused called someone from Little Rock to apologize.

That is as much as I can handle at the moment. I didn't summarize everything, just what I thought the most important information was. Please feel free to add or correct me if I'm mistaken.

[August]

It is in that family, infantilising children is one the fundie priciples....

No, this is about brain chemistry and impulsivity and parental oversight in explaining explicitly that you do not ever do this. I'm thinking carefully, and I don't know that for my child still in the single digit ages beyond "this is a private place, no one but yourself and a real doctor here at the doctors office with a parent oresent may touch you here" and general discouragement of touching other people around the genitals or chest or looking there that I've ever explicitly said that they themselves must never ever under any circumstances touch another person in a private place.

Of course, I'm going to go and do it right now, but my point is that I could see a child under ten making a mistake through a parental mistake. But fucking hell, once the hormones start coursing and given how sex-obsessed the duggars are how can you possibly think that even a fourteen year old (and he was older than that) can't identify a sexual aged person as opposed to a child. That is instinctive goddamn knowledge. Noone without some serious wiring problems thinks sexual thoughts about a four year old.

Waffle on all you like about how telling a teenager that any touch is bad will lead them to think any touch is fine, but that still leaves the fact that his targets were not sexual beings, they were children. And that is just not an impulse even the most frustrated normal teenager would have.

I am worried now about how many similar and worse incidents went unreported.

[salex]

I am late to this discussion, I see, but A question to people who know more about this than I do. I am not defending Josh or his family for this but I am curious if his acts are those of a true pedophile/molester or if they are what normal curiosity might look like in a sexually repressed cult? I mean, young kids exhibit curiosity, and it seems that tweens may experiment/look/play with friends (same or opposite sex) without being defined permanently as gay or bi from their actions. Of course, this is consentual (as far as a couple of tweens can consent with each other) but in religious households that hear the Male is in charge and the female submits, consent is not likely a concept they have heard about.

Is it possible that this really was a childhood phase that he could get past? I think good counseling for him and the girls would have been a better choice than 3 months of physical work and prayer or whatever he got... (and it seems the girls got nothing). I suspect the only reason a police report was filed with Officer Friendly was because Josh stepped outside of the family and so something had to be done to appease an outsider.

I often wonder how the religious families who are very separated from outsiders, homeschool and home church and work from home deal with budding sexuality when the only people the are around are their siblings. I have wondered this about many of the families we talk about on these threads and suspect more of this goes on than we will ever know.

[lilwriter85]

Well this might have been posted, but the Today show reported on the story.

http://www.today.com/news/josh-duggar-i ... dal-t22486

[lilwriter85]

Forgive me if someone offered some info on my question already, I'm up to page 30 and I can't keep up.

Does anyone know what makes the people who commit this kind of abuse tick? My first thought was what Josh did was 100% a by-product of his upbringing, but the more I think about it I'm not so sure. The girls were all pre-pubescent with the exception of Jana who was likely going through puberty. There must be millions of boys who grow up in extremely sexually repressive households, but only a small fraction molest their pre-pubescent sisters. I mean, I've heard of teenage boys becoming creative when they are curious about girls - even a catalogue will suffice. The more I think about this, the more it's just not normal for Josh to have fixated on such young girls, even if that is all he had access to.

I suppose I'm just becoming more and more concerned for Mac and the upcoming daughter, especially with Anna and her parents being so fucking clueless.

I also think the timing of this is interesting as well. The election talk is getting hot, and with Josh being so visibly active with the conservatives I wouldn't be surprised if someone was trying to dig up dirt on Josh and hit money. I also wouldn't be totally surprised if he made enemies within FRC either - I can believe there would have been some resentment towards him, especially when so many of the staff members there are extremely educated and had to work for this job while Josh the bumpkin was handed the position due to his name. I just really doubt that any of the Duggars or Derrick/Ben would have tipped off the media, especially if the J'slaves want to stay quiet. I don't see Derrick/Ben disrespecting their wive's wishes.[/quote]

I also think this could have happened. If it wasn't someone at FRC, it could have been someone else working in politics in DC, who had beef with Joshie boy.

[rodgerdodger]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but Mama June is threatening to sue TLC if 19KAC continues because her dating a sexual predator wasn't "as bad".

TLC has fucked themselves over tenfolds with this situation. They need to ax 19KAC ASAP, their whole channel has become a speculation cesspool of "does TLC has a molestation problem??"

[singsingsing]

Not everyone who molests children is a pedophile. You don't have to be sexually attracted to a person to molest them. But that doesn't change the fact that you have a serious problem - it's just a different kind of problem. If Josh is actually a pedophile, he's at risk of reoffending. But if he's not and he did it because of warped sexuality, mental illness, control issues, etc. - he may still be at risk of reoffending. That's why it's so inexcusable that his parents did not get him the help he needed at the time.