Jill Duggar Dillard, Derick Dillard, & Baby Israel - Part 2

[tapdancer493]

So. Being oblivious to the bickering above. Was that the first Michelle and Izzy pic posted back there?

First one I've seen. It was on Jill's instagram/family website. There's another one taken at the same time but you can't really see Michelle (it's basically a picture of Izzy with some crunchy Michelle hair).

Also, please enjoy this very sweet picture of Cathy + Izzy from Derick's instagram (weirdly, not on the family website). You can tell she's smitten.

[bal maiden]

Money is a variable- for sure.

A variable, yes, but not the only, nor even the most significant, in most cases. I was going to write a longer post before, since this is my area of expertise, but I am breastfeeding and typing one-handed, so realised I didn't want to waste the oxytocin rush on trying to persuade you of anything :lol:

[Lucy H]

;)

Ben and Jessa opting not to broadcast the holy first lip smacker gave me a sliver of hope they are actually learning. The awkward horror of Josh and anna's Dyson moment.

Toilet birth may have given Jill some pause.

The OB is only commenting on exactly the same thing you saw remember.

Now suspend the speculation conspiracy train for a just one moment and remember that Jill also watched Josie's birth and yes Anna's three births, toilet and all the thank you Jesus and obvious pain. Maybe she decided yes I would like the birth filmed but my husband and I do not want that much intrusion. TLC will advertise all kinds of bullshit to get viewers. You know it could be just that simple, still a speculation though. Just not a very exciting one.

The fact you find the issue at hand boring and identify as a new user is interesting. Seems to match what other's are 'speculating' in another thread. :think: (Not a dig at you personally.)

Not sure how many users actually check other parts of the board.

Right now I am following only the Duggar Geneal Discussion and this thread. I look at a few others a little bit but am not reading every post. I can't speak for others.

[Buzzard]

Jim bob and Michelle were adults when they made the decision to follow Gothard. Adults who had the benefit of choice. Their children have never had this.

Josh has moved away, he is certainly more aware of the 'outside' world and probably therefore is making a more informed decision in his own beliefs. To some extent he is trapped as mentioned up-thread but he certainly has more opportunity to make choices.

The two girls have basically just moved a couple of miles away and nothing has changed for them in regard to choice or opportunity. By the time it might they will both probably have a ton of kids. It's pretty sad really.

Jim Bob and Michelle were adults who had the benefit of a real education and exposure to the outside world. They made the unfortunate choice to follow a cult leader who lives in his mother's basement and dreams of feet.... that was ENTIRELY on them.

The J'kids are victims of this terrible choice. While they are adults, now with children, they were brainwashed from birth, poorly educated, and kept in a bubble of "protection." Do I expect them to wake up one morning and say "HOLY SHIT?!?! What have I done with my life???" No. But I can only hope that the girls, who married "worldly" men, realize limitations and try to do better.

I will snark on them because, as adults, they made their choices BUT only after I give them a 3 year window to be enlightened.

[mpheels]

One of the really great things about being a reasonably intelligent, adult human being is the ability to have multiple thoughts and beliefs on a matter, even if they are conflicting. It's OK to simultaneously:

1) Think Jill made some questionable decisions that increased risk for herself and her fetus/child

2) Recognize that Jill's decisions were largely influenced by her upbringing, both in terms of religion and lack of education

3) Believe that Jill's tends towards self involvement, which also contributed to her questionable decisions

4) Question whether Jill's self-involved nature is the result of the general Duggar/Gothard cult situation, of her parent's possible favoritism, or just a naturally occurring quirk that falls within the spectrum of normal personalities

5) Conclude that Jill is a human being who makes mistakes, just like all human beings, and those mistakes may or may not the result of her upbringing, so she probably doesn't deserve to be fed to the wolves (but it's still OK to point out that she did make mistakes)

[VelociRapture]

First one I've seen. It was on Jill's instagram/family website. There's another one taken at the same time but you can't really see Michelle (it's basically a picture of Izzy with some crunchy Michelle hair).

Also, please enjoy this very sweet picture of Cathy + Izzy from Derick's instagram (weirdly, not on the family website). You can tell she's smitten.

[attachment=0]CathyandIzzy.png[/attachment]

That is such a lovely picture of Cathy and Israel (and I'm glad to see that Cathy is looking healthier!)

And yes, I do believe the other picture of Michelle with Israel is the first clear photo of her holding him. Only thing I'll say about that photo is that I like the fact it doesn't seem very posed - Michelle seems more natural there then she does in other pictures.

[OkToBeTakei]

One of the really great things about being a reasonably intelligent, adult human being is the ability to have multiple thoughts and beliefs on a matter, even if they are conflicting. It's OK to simultaneously:

1) Think Jill made some questionable decisions that increased risk for herself and her fetus/child

2) Recognize that Jill's decisions were largely influenced by her upbringing, both in terms of religion and lack of education

3) Believe that Jill's tends towards self involvement, which also contributed to her questionable decisions

4) Question whether Jill's self-involved nature is the result of the general Duggar/Gothard cult situation, of her parent's possible favoritism, or just a naturally occurring quirk that falls within the spectrum of normal personalities

5) Conclude that Jill is a human being who makes mistakes, just like all human beings, and those mistakes may or may not the result of her upbringing, so she probably doesn't deserve to be fed to the wolves (but it's still OK to point out that she did make mistakes)

That's along way of saying speculation :lol:

[halcionne]

Additionally, I don't think the Duggars have seen/noticed the really negative effects of being entertainment yet. There was another thread about why the Duggar family hasn't imploded yet. And they haven't. The Honey Boo Boo family has seen what happens when your life falls apart on national television. I'm sure the older kids and adults in that situation understand really well now how selling your family for entertainment backfires. Jill seems to have had a pretty charmed life once TLC showed up. The cameras cut back some of the more overtly harmful Duggar practices like physical discipline. The cameras introduced the kids to culture and travel and physical possessions and, hell, enough FOOD and SPACE. Plus, Jill seems extroverted and pretty open, so the cameras maybe didn't even bother her that much privacy-wise. She was still a sister-mom which is shitty, but it seems like a role she actually genuinely enjoyed. I think we (fairly) assume that those things came with a cost, but I'm not sure that all the Duggar children understand that because they haven't felt it in their lives yet (I'm sure some have, to varying degrees, of course). I suspect Jill interprets TLC as good for her and her family growing up, so it must be good for her family now.

Jill seems very naive and trusting (and pretty genuine) to me. I wonder what will happen when "doing all the right things" doesn't lead to all the right results. That often causes people to re-think things.

I'm wondering if her L&D experience and/or slinggate will, in some small way, at least, cause her to question her faith. If she feels that bad things are happening and she can't reconcile it with her past experience of being good = being blessed, hence bad things happening are a consequence for sin, etc. I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts here. What I mean is, she could potentially get depressed for feeling she's done something to deserve losing god's favor. Or decide that's not how it works at all, which I think would be a paradigm shift, for a Duggar.

[apandaaries]

yesyesyesyesyes. You have encapsulated the problem nicely.

I think a few of us here keep trying to make this point; I am now starting to wonder if the reason it's not getting through is that it is essentially a sociological/liberal/lefty way of describing things - attributing behaviours to structural issues rather than individual agency, the latter being rather more right wing/individualist. Perhaps our political and social contexts are informing our views on the level and tone of acceptable snark.

*returns to ivory tower*.

I think it's the interplay of the two, structural issues and individual agency, where things get really interesting. I think most of us are hoping an individual will emerge from the Duggar compound and we're REALLY straining our eyes and imaginations to find one. Then we're reminded of the principles of Gothard and the internal and mental restrictions on the kids/kidults. It's an interesting balancing act, but makes for messy threads.

In terms of some of the larger, Quiver o' Duggar issues, I can see how that would be a problem for mods. For everyone else, though...

Some of us are newer to the ideas of fundie-land, and the Duggars, being the most widely known, are the first foray into that insanity. They have had an explosion of media coverage lately with the marriage of two beautiful daughters and the arrival of baby Dizzy. Of course some people are going to find their way to FJ to try to figure them out. And people are going to have questions about their religious mess and their stifled personalities and stunted growth. Even though old FJs have discussed those issues, some of us haven't (even though we may have read back threads and seen others' opinions).

Or there is new material to discuss. We do have kidults marrying and moving out of the house. We do have a lot of weirdly confusing information from various media outlets (TLC, People, Instagram). Some people are particularly interested in some of these subjects (I wanted to be a midwife for awhile -- I'm intensely curious about Jill's birth and the conflicting reports we've heard). Some want to post their thoughts about it. Sounds like normal internet to me.

I also agree with Escapefromfundiedom's post: No one is going to change overnight, and breaking away means defying a lifetime's worth of brainwashing. That is really tough, from all reports I've read. The Duggars have the added pressures of fame AND the family loyalties/business being tied to the show. Anyone breaking away WILL have enormous work to do, work which will take a LONG time.

For me, attempting to analyze the behavior of individuals within this oppressive, overarching religious structure is an interesting exercise. Sometimes I even change my mind about people. Oftentimes I learn much more about other aspects of this culture.

FJ has been around for quite awhile. Balancing the old with the new is never easy, and easy answers are hard to come by.

My hat's off to the mods, for I do appreciate your hard work and I'm sure many others do, too.

[OkToBeTakei]

Maybe this will help. As some posters are saying they do not leave the Duggar threads. This might explain what must seem like a a bolt from the blue on this thread. Or an annoying bicker. A poster did try to redirect folks to the relevant thread earlier.

happy atheist wrote:

Free Jinger is not a Duggar fan site.

Neither is Free Jinger a hate-fest free-for-all.

We strive to be a place for intelligent discussion about controversial topics.

We will not be a place for baseless rumors, fan fiction, and trollish behavior.

We request that new members take some time to read older, existing threads to get a feel for our board culture.

Think about the question you have or the topic you would like to discuss. Is there already a thread on that topic? If not, is your topic/question meaty enough to warrant its own discussion? Perhaps, instead of starting a new thread, it would be better to post your question or comment to an existing thread.

Please utilize the "search" function to determine if your question/topic is already the subject of discussion.

We have general discussion threads for the Duggar family, and for events on the show. We have broad categories for several of the children. There's really no reason to start a new thread to ponder what brand of toothpaste they use, or how often they clean the toilets, or whatever.

The helpmeets are going to start being a little bit ruthless about merging threads so that relevant things don't disappear off the first page so quickly.

If you post a link or a photo, include some commentary of your own. Tell us why we should follow the link. Tell us why the photo is worth the bandwidth. FJ is not Pinterest. We do not exist simply to be a Duggar scrapbook. We exist to discuss the damage caused by fundamentalists.

Do not hotlink to images on other sites. Upload RELEVANT photos here. It's not that hard. Hotlinked images may be deleted by helpmeets.

Break links to non-news sources.

A not-so-gentle reminder that we do not allow speculation about the sexuality of minors, or of adult children still living in their parents' home. "Sexuality" is not limited to orientation/preference. Do not imply or speculate about promiscuity or sexual deviance.

Another not-so-gentle reminder that FJ has a "no deletion" policy. Don't post something you're going to later ask us to remove. You wrote it, you own it. As we often tell the fundies, The Internet is Forever.

[VelociRapture]

I think it's the interplay of the two, structural issues and individual agency, where things get really interesting. I think most of us are hoping an individual will emerge from the Duggar compound and we're REALLY straining our eyes and imaginations to find one. Then we're reminded of the principles of Gothard and the internal and mental restrictions on the kids/kidults. It's an interesting balancing act, but makes for messy threads.

In terms of some of the larger, Quiver o' Duggar issues, I can see how that would be a problem for mods. For everyone else, though...

Some of us are newer to the ideas of fundie-land, and the Duggars, being the most widely known, are the first foray into that insanity. They have had an explosion of media coverage lately with the marriage of two beautiful daughters and the arrival of baby Dizzy. Of course some people are going to find their way to FJ to try to figure them out. And people are going to have questions about their religious mess and their stifled personalities and stunted growth. Even though old FJs have discussed those issues, some of us haven't (even though we may have read back threads and seen others' opinions).

Or there is new material to discuss. We do have kidults marrying and moving out of the house. We do have a lot of weirdly confusing information from various media outlets (TLC, People, Instagram). Some people are particularly interested in some of these subjects (I wanted to be a midwife for awhile -- I'm intensely curious about Jill's birth and the conflicting reports we've heard). Some want to post their thoughts about it. Sounds like normal internet to me.

I also agree with Escapefromfundiedom's post: No one is going to change overnight, and breaking away means defying a lifetime's worth of brainwashing. That is really tough, from all reports I've read. The Duggars have the added pressures of fame AND the family loyalties/business being tied to the show. Anyone breaking away WILL have enormous work to do, work which will take a LONG time.

For me, attempting to analyze the behavior of individuals within this oppressive, overarching religious structure is an interesting exercise. Sometimes I even change my mind about people. Oftentimes I learn much more about other aspects of this culture.

FJ has been around for quite awhile. Balancing the old with the new is never easy, and easy answers are hard to come by.

My hat's off to the mods, for I do appreciate your hard work and I'm sure many others do, too.

I agree. I think that the issue isn't really with old posters versus new posters though (at least not how you described it exactly). A lot of the older posters on here are great about explaining things or, at the very least, pointing people in the right direction when needed. And a lot of newer posters have a great amount of insight into how this culture works.

To me, it really is more about balancing between the overly aggressive people who just want to hate on anything the Duggars do (even if its something positive for once) and the overly aggressive people who just want to hump the legs of all the Duggars.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

I really hope that Cathy is a big influence in baby Dilly's life. Derrick doesn't realize how damaging the fundie lifestyle will be to his children because he didn't grow up in it.

He had the benefit of being born into a family where both parents were college educated and his parents were married for over 5 years before they had kids. I also think he is in no way prepared for the financial stress of being a sole breadwinner for a large family. I know that JB is passing out goodies now- but eventually that will tape off as more Duggar kids marry and have families of their own.

I just will be interested to see how Derrick looks in 3-5 years.

[halcionne]

The funding of a cult is the problem.

Cults die when money dries up-

OMG yes. That's why I like to keep track of where they've been and who they're with! Money is at the bottom of the cult and the politics.

[halcionne]

I keep forgetting to post this--it's a couple of days old now.

jillmdillard

2 days ago

At Israel's dedication this morning we were challenged to raise him to love Jesus. What a special Mother's Day! "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth." 3 John 1:4

#babydedication #MothersDay

and

amyduggar

2 days ago

Thankful I was able to see baby Israel's church dedication today! So much love for this little family â¤ï¸ @jillmdillard @derickdillard @ronniefloyd

So, they dedicated Izzy at Cross Church, as part of a larger group of new parents. That means they're members, right? I mean, their church membership has been discussed here a little bit, but I feel like this is solid confirmation that Cross Church is their church home.

We've seen talk that the church of the blacked out windows is closing/closed, which is a seperate issue, I guess. But it makes me wonder where the other Duggars go on Sundays. To be clear, I think J&D would be at Derick's church regardless, and that's a good sign, imo.

[Rescinded and Mended]

Ho-oooly shit.

Is that Gothard himself in the white suit? :shock:

ETA: so that's Ronnie Floyd, then. The hashtag should have alerted me to it, but from that angle, he does look a bit like a younger version of Gothard.

*still slightly in shock*

[EmmieJ]

FJ has changed and adapted a lot over the years. However, newer posters should respect and try to understand the existing culture of a forum before they try to trample on it.

Does that make sense?

It does make sense. However, I am not a newer poster, although I am not as long-time as many of you are. What I didn't care for was basically hearing "fuck off" when I didn't care for the mocking tone in a post (mocking towards other posters here). However, I guess if one is an original member or very long-time member of the group, perhaps that confers the right to tell others to fuck off when they voice their disagreement with a longtime user's post. Clearly, I did not fuck off.

As to the adult children and their options in life. I agree that they are hobbled by the way they were raised, although I believe they have had greater exposure to the outside world than many fundie kids. I hope that at least some of the children, once they are adults, might be curious about the mainstream world and explore it a little. Only time will tell.

I think the ATI/Duggar version of fundamentalism is inherently unsustainable. How many generations can they go with no real education, no real job skills, mowing lawns, trimming trees, doing their version of "graphic design," with most of their customers/clients being other fundies? The Duggars are the outliers - actually having a steady, decent income from TLC. Eventually that income source will dry up, and then what? Maybe when that happens, the cracks will begin to show and the adult children, if they begin to have real financial struggles, might at that point be more open to secular ideas. Or maybe not.

But as long as they want to earn their living by filming scripted shows for TLC, they will also have to accept the criticism that comes along with selling your privacy and your kids' privacy.

[EmmieJ]

I keep forgetting to post this--it's a couple of days old now.

and

So, they dedicated Izzy at Cross Church, as part of a larger group of new parents. That means they're members, right? I mean, their church membership has been discussed here a little bit, but I feel like this is solid confirmation that Cross Church is their church home.

We've seen talk that the church of the blacked out windows is closing/closed, which is a seperate issue, I guess. But it makes me wonder where the other Duggars go on Sundays. To be clear, I think J&D would be at Derick's church regardless, and that's a good sign, imo.

Do fundies get some sort of discount on tan Docker's?

[Snarkylark]

No, that's not Gothard. That's the pastor of cross church. But what happened to derick's mouth?? He looks bad!

[RosyDaisy]

You can firmly place me in the mean girls category. I will never play nice with fundies and people who defend them (aka leghumpers). They don't deserve it. They are actively trying to turn the U.S. into a theocracy and don't care who they hurt along the way. Karma's a bitch and the this negative publicity they are are getting is a taste of it, and have more coming their way.

If my snark sounds vicious, again, I don't give a shit. Perhaps people need to remember how dangerous their beliefs are, what their agenda really is, and the harm they have done. I'm not strictly speaking of the Duggars here. Remember DPIATR and Gothard's fall from grace and the stories from their victims? Hell, there are people on FJ who have been hurt by these cults.

As for the negative tabloid articles, guess what? Fundies love to cry persecution to gain even more sympathy. They aren't butthurt in the least. So, fuck every single one of them.

[halcionne]

A variable, yes, but not the only, nor even the most significant, in most cases. I was going to write a longer post before, since this is my area of expertise, but I am breastfeeding and typing one-handed, so realised I didn't want to waste the oxytocin rush on trying to persuade you of anything :lol:

I'm interested in your thoughts on this as well, when you're up for it. :)

[mpheels]

I really hope that Cathy is a big influence in baby Dilly's life. Derrick doesn't realize how damaging the fundie lifestyle will be to his children because he didn't grow up in it.

He had the benefit of being born into a family where both parents were college educated and his parents were married for over 5 years before they had kids. I also think he is in no way prepared for the financial stress of being a sole breadwinner for a large family. I know that JB is passing out goodies now- but eventually that will tape off as more Duggar kids marry and have families of their own.

I just will be interested to see how Derrick looks in 3-5 years.

Watching the Izzy birth VSE, I was shocked/impressed when Derick pointed out the apartment complex his parents lived in when they were newlyweds. Derick said they lived there in the 1970's. Derick was born in 1989. So even if the "1970's" means 1979, his parents were married for 10-ish years before they had kids!

[halcionne]

Ho-oooly shit.

Is that Gothard himself in the white suit? :shock:

ETA: so that's Ronnie Floyd, then. The hashtag should have alerted me to it, but from that angle, he does look a bit like a younger version of Gothard.

*still slightly in shock*

I didn't know who he was, so I'm glad she tagged him, though I don't understand why she did. I recently got instagram and I don't know the ins and outs yet. Something about Ronnie Floyd reminded me of HSN host Bill Green, for some reason! :lol: I used to watch him for hours at a time with an elderly relative who was all about home shopping. :shifty-kitty:

[OkToBeTakei]

It does make sense. However, I am not a newer poster, although I am not as long-time as many of you are. What I didn't care for was basically hearing "fuck off" when I didn't care for the mocking tone in a post (mocking towards other posters here). However, I guess if one is an original member or very long-time member of the group, perhaps that confers the right to tell others to fuck off when they voice their disagreement with a longtime user's post. Clearly, I did not fuck off.

As to the adult children and their options in life. I agree that they are hobbled by the way they were raised, although I believe they have had greater exposure to the outside world than many fundie kids. I hope that at least some of the children, once they are adults, might be curious about the mainstream world and explore it a little. Only time will tell.

I think the ATI/Duggar version of fundamentalism is inherently unsustainable. How many generations can they go with no real education, no real job skills, mowing lawns, trimming trees, doing their version of "graphic design," with most of their customers/clients being other fundies? The Duggars are the outliers - actually having a steady, decent income from TLC. Eventually that income source will dry up, and then what? Maybe when that happens, the cracks will begin to show and the adult children, if they begin to have real financial struggles, might at that point be more open to secular ideas. Or maybe not.

But as long as they want to earn their living by filming scripted shows for TLC, they will also have to accept the criticism that comes along with selling your privacy and your kids' privacy.

If you want to read back and post for accuracy, you told yourself to fuck off.

My post was in the response to the bolded directed at Mama Mia.

Honestly, Mama Mia shame on you for your shaming post.

Get a fucking grip

It's a bit of fun. The fact that folks take it seriously is where the snark is. Get it?

There is no point of these posts dealing with the real issues of patriarchy. So ...yeah..fuck off.

Grammar fail. Supposed to be a 'not' after posts. :(

You then said.

I don't get it either, so I guess I'm also to fuck off? I didn't find it snarky, I found it a form of "tsk, tsk, tsking" at some posters here.

Just for accuracy. I swear a lot just making sure whilst it may have appeared harsh it would appear that the majority of posters also realised Mama Mia's post was satirical. Not err....shaming.

Anyway I'm sure the hate-fest will continue regardless. Maybe just maybe a bit more nuanced.

[halcionne]

Watching the Izzy birth VSE, I was shocked/impressed when Derick pointed out the apartment complex his parents lived in when they were newlyweds. Derick said they lived there in the 1970's. Derick was born in 1989. So even if the "1970's" means 1979, his parents were married for 10-ish years before they had kids!

I have a tentative wedding date for Cathy and Rick of August 1978, but I don't remember where I got that info. I thought it was interesting how long they waited to have children, too.

[happy atheist]

Right now I am following only the Duggar Geneal Discussion and this thread. I look at a few others a little bit but am not reading every post. I can't speak for others.

!	{TEXT1}:
	As a member of FJ you are expected to keep up with official announcements, and the one everyone is talking about was made in the Duggar subforum. You can tell it's an announcement because it's cleverly hiding under the "News and Announcements" header.