Orthodox Jewish Couple in NY Times

[longskirts]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/21/fashi ... .html?_r=0

I find this a little worrisome. The guy didn't want to marry a woman with a journalism career because that's not "quiet" enough for a woman. He finally came to terms with it--after a couple years--and proposed. I just wonder if he's not going to try to control her in other ways in the future.

Also, I've read her essays on Orthodox dating and it makes no sense that a student at Stern had trouble finding guys who are okay with her secular studies and career. That would describe almost anyone at YU. It's like the students at her college weren't fundie enough for her, but it was hard to find a really fundie guy who would accept her not-so-fundie lifestyle. Kind of a contrived problem IMO.

[AuntCloud]

My clue was reading the bride's bio - she's the daughter of Russian immigrants who gradually tightened up their religious practices. Growing up, she was taught women need to get education and good jobs - you will be hard pressed to find Russian SAHMs. Maybe it's a vestige of the communist era, maybe it's the harsh reality of life there, but coming from this culture myself I can attest that young women are encouraged and expected to study and get as far as they can academically - and at the same time marry and have kids. Looks like she's not your typical Haredi young bride who was raised to study just enough to find a decent job to support her family, not to develop a career. It's hard to reconcile all the different streaks of yourself when you go through a big life transition, changing countries and degrees of religion. Hope she can continue her career.

[DGayle]

Seated way up front, Dr. Ruth Westheimer, an old friend of the groom’s family, said: “I can see that they do not need a sex therapist. I can just tell by the way he looks at her and the way she looks at him.â€

Oh, Dr. Ruth....

The bride and groom sound like financially privileges kids who expect perfection in life, and are treating their relationship as business. The way they describe their feelings is very dry, and her having strong opinions has been a recurring problem. Something he likes is that she's "outgoing but not very noisy," and he claims he'll respect her opinions, but I don't think he understands that you can be loud online. I think he's okay if she sits down and shuts up, but if she gets to be a big name, that'll be loud. I doubt she even realizes that what she can do is limited if she wants her husband to be happy.

I also think she'll see any misery she goes through as a result of having to tone it down as an enjoyable martyrdom.

Also meeting and marrying in 2.5 years isn't really taking time. That's so typical.

[shedemei]

2.5 years is NOR typical in chareidi society at all. A few weeks to a few months is typical. Notice they dated other people in the mean time.

[Idolatry]

I don't get her writing.

I can't figure out if she wants me to be impressed by all her OMG RULZ or by her OMG REBEL side about some subset of said rules.

I gotta give the Duggars, at least they just say nonsense like they can do anything in skirts instead of kvetching about the skirts so everyone will be impressed that they are wearing them after they chose to wear them.

[longskirts]

I don't get her writing.

I can't figure out if she wants me to be impressed by all her OMG RULZ or by her OMG REBEL side about some subset of said rules.

I gotta give the Duggars, at least they just say nonsense like they can do anything in skirts instead of kvetching about the skirts so everyone will be impressed that they are wearing them after they chose to wear them.

That's how I see it too.

[Jana814]

Interesting article. Many Orthodox Jewish women work.

[patsymae]

Bullshit article. If you take the "Orthodox Jew" out of it (and even with that there are so many questions about the 'Orthodox'), it's about the same story like 11 billion other people have. Yawn.

[lilah]

I don't get her writing.

I can't figure out if she wants me to be impressed by all her OMG RULZ or by her OMG REBEL side about some subset of said rules.

I gotta give the Duggars, at least they just say nonsense like they can do anything in skirts instead of kvetching about the skirts so everyone will be impressed that they are wearing them after they chose to wear them.

I read one of her articles. She seemed critical of how modesty has become some kind of one up man ship type game. You have to understand the orthodox matchmaking ritual where you answer lengthy questionnaire on your faith and lifestyle. We're talking some really minute bs questions. This is a parody here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeero ... -questions

I think it's interesting how the charedi approach marriage vs fundie christians. Charedi really do take a business approach with professional matchmakers and such. But they have a better track record than fundies of getting married and have 8 lids. But then living in tight knit commucommunities pputs more social pressure on young people to get married. They aren't isolated like the ardnts or maxwell or botkins.

[anjulibai]

I do think it's not uncommon to find men who say they want an independent woman who has her own opinions, but when confronted with reality, it becomes too much for them

But I'm sure religion can throw an added wrench in to the mess. Gives men something to back up their insecurity, instead of being confronted by the fact they want submissiveness, something many modern men find outwardly distasteful.

[Emme]

I read one of her articles. She seemed critical of how modesty has become some kind of one up man ship type game. You have to understand the orthodox matchmaking ritual where you answer lengthy questionnaire on your faith and lifestyle. We're talking some really minute bs questions. This is a parody here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeero ... -questions

I think it's interesting how the charedi approach marriage vs fundie christians. Charedi really do take a business approach with professional matchmakers and such. But they have a better track record than fundies of getting married and have 8 lids. But then living in tight knit commucommunities pputs more social pressure on young people to get married. They aren't isolated like the ardnts or maxwell or botkins.

That's interesting and true. I hadn't thought about the community aspects of it, but there is definitely pressure. I remember when one of the young hasidic rabbis I know got engaged. There's also some stuff in the Torah and Talmud (maybe?) about how to treat your wife, including that if she doesn't want to have sex, you should not under any circumstances pressure her, use it as a weapon/tool, or force her. Sex is actually the woman's right in Judaism and it's the man's job to make sure it's pleasurable for her. Not sure how that actually translates into real life, but I think that's kind of nice. and different than the way fundies think about sex in my experience.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Her article "Tights Squeeze" for Tablet magazine give some insight into her background.

It sounds like she went to a Bais Yaacov school or something similar - a girls' school for the Haredi community. Then, she went to Stern College, which is part of Yeshiva University - the flagship institution of the Modern Orthodox community. Some of the rules are very similar, but the mindset is different.

I liked the tights article. It reminds me of certain arguments I've had back and forth for years. This part struck a chord:

I wish I could have shown her the shorter and tighter pencil skirts that I left behind in my closet. Instead I quipped, “Yes, have you seen the Ramat Bet Shemesh women? They’ve taken to wearing burqas. Now, those are really tznius.â€

My sarcasm went undetected. “Yes, indeed,†the hostess said, taking her glasses off with a sigh. “Those women are so modest. We can’t judge them, they’re on a much higher level than we are.â€

Ah, the "higher level" line. I heard it many times, and now see it as a warning signal.

Whenever someone one was talking about a practice that you weren't comfortable doing, the "higher level" line was invoked. They would reach out to you and be tolerant and understanding of your lower level of observance, but gently suggest that you might want to keeping growing and reaching for a higher level. If someone did something that sounded crazy - well, you weren't on that level yet. It was both a reassurance that this wasn't expected of you, and a subtle jab to suggest that they were above you.

In that world, the language of "levels" was very common, and it was part of the logic behind outreach. You could be warmly accepted and embraced even if you weren't particularly observant. If you mentioned that you hadn't grown up religious, they were very understanding. The theology of outreach said that you weren't really responsible for failing to be observant, because you were akin to a kidnapped child, raised without an awareness of your religious background.

The phrase made me vaguely uncomfortable, but one day it clicked for me. Some conversations weren't about being on a "higher level" at all. It wasn't just that I wasn't there yet - it was that I had no intention of ever doing this or believing that. It wasn't a higher level - it was a different path.

[longskirts]

She went to Bruriah, a modern orthodox high school in New Jersey, which makes the whole thing so funny. She is trying to set up this story of facing dilemmas in the chareidi world when she's never actually been in that world herself.

[lilah]

Her article "Tights Squeeze" for Tablet magazine give some insight into her background.

It sounds like she went to a Bais Yaacov school or something similar - a girls' school for the Haredi community. Then, she went to Stern College, which is part of Yeshiva University - the flagship institution of the Modern Orthodox community. Some of the rules are very similar, but the mindset is different.

I liked the tights article. It reminds me of certain arguments I've had back and forth for years. This part struck a chord:

Ah, the "higher level" line. I heard it many times, and now see it as a warning signal.

Whenever someone one was talking about a practice that you weren't comfortable doing, the "higher level" line was invoked. They would reach out to you and be tolerant and understanding of your lower level of observance, but gently suggest that you might want to keeping growing and reaching for a higher level. If someone did something that sounded crazy - well, you weren't on that level yet. It was both a reassurance that this wasn't expected of you, and a subtle jab to suggest that they were above you.

In that world, the language of "levels" was very common, and it was part of the logic behind outreach. You could be warmly accepted and embraced even if you weren't particularly observant. If you mentioned that you hadn't grown up religious, they were very understanding. The theology of outreach said that you weren't really responsible for failing to be observant, because you were akin to a kidnapped child, raised without an awareness of your religious background.

The phrase made me vaguely uncomfortable, but one day it clicked for me. Some conversations weren't about being on a "higher level" at all. It wasn't just that I wasn't there yet - it was that I had no intention of ever doing this or believing that. It wasn't a higher level - it was a different path.

Kind of reminds me of the frog boiling in water metaphor! Very interesting. I've always thought converts were not really treated as well, that instead they were having to constantly prove they really did convert properly and were good orthodox Jews. I read one memoir of a young woman who basically burned out trying to prove she was Jewish enough (she was Jewish on her father's side so she had to offically convert since Judaism is matrilineal) I do know a lot of the orthodox outreach is to reform Jews. (we're not very evangelical except to our own kind. Lol) so maybe they are more supportive of reform/secular Jews trying to behave like Charedi/orthodox.

[shedemei]

Kind of reminds me of the frog boiling in water metaphor!

Funny enough, Ultra-Orthodox Jews have their own boiling in water metaphor. This was sent to the parents of girls in a Lakewood school newsletter a few years ago, and is about what happens if your skirts are too short or you don't wear tights. It would probably shock most of the fundiest of fundies out there. Even most of the chareidim (charediot?) on imamother found it unacceptable.

(This story was related to the (shomrim/guardians of something I can't make out) by a reliable person, as transpired with this person's father or uncle.)

A man was traveling in a horse and wagon together with a group of other people. As they were traveling through a field, they suddenly heard a terrible, heartrending scream. "Yidden, yidden (fellow Jews), please come and have rachmanut (mercy)… Help me!" The men followed the screams to a small house standing in the field. They hurriedly jumped off their wagon, thinking that some robbers must have befallen that house, and they wanted to help. However, when they entered the little house, a most firghtening scene met their eyes. They saw an old woman, with a younger lady laying on a bench. On the ground burned a huge fire, and on the fire stood a large pot filled with clothing. The clothing, which were boiling up in the pot, emitted clouds of smoke rising up to the ceiling. The old woman silently reached into the pot, took out a boiling article of clothing, and put it onto the young woman, instantly burning her body. The young woman was screaming terribly in pain, but the older woman continued putting more and more burning clothing onto her. the mean realized that what they were witnessing was not from this world, but rather these were neshamot (souls, in this case of dead people) from the next world receiving their punishment. They were so shaken up and frightened, that they dropped the money they had with them and fled one by one outside. When the old woman saw that they were leaving, she ran out after the and once again began screaming, "Yidden, have rachmanut… Help us!!" However, the men continued fleeing in great fear, forgetting about their horse and wagon, and ran all the way back to their hometown, where they fell to the ground and lay there weak and faint for a few weeks. Afterwards, they remembered that there had never been a house standing in that field…

It seems like what they saw was a mother and her daughter, and the mother had not raised her daughter to be tzniusdik (modest). This was the punishment they were given, that the mother herself had to burn her own daughter… This is the עונש (don't know this word, google says "punishment") of women who burn the neshamot (souls) of their children in this world when they have rachmanut on them and don't lead them in the ways of tzniut (modesty)… in the next world, they will turn into ×כזרימ (don't know this word, google says "cruel") and they will have to punish their children with their own hands…

He concludes by saying: It is a great mitzvah (commandment, here used as "good deed") to read, explain, and tell this true story to the women in our time, so that they should recognize and know that there is a borei olam (creator of the universe) who is not mutar (permissive) on this mitzvah (commandment) - not one tiny bit! A isha kashira (kosher woman) who conducts herself with tzniut (modesty) and brings up daughters and sons with tzniut (modesty), she brings kedusha (holiness) into her entire home! This kedusha (holiness) extends onto all the foods and onto her husband…

http://www.imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186428

(Translation of the yiddish/hebrew is mine and/or google's).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Lilah - yes, the approach with converts to Judaism is quite different from the approach with less observant Jews.

Judaism sees no need for a non-Jew to convert, and it is seen as preferable to stay as a non-Jew and fulfill the 7 basic commandments for non-Jews, rather than convert to Judaism and take on WAY more commandments that you won't fulfill. So, potential converts need to jump through hoops.

OTOH, outreach to less observant/non-Orthodox Jews is encouraged, particularly in some circles. Outreach-oriented groups like Chabad and Aish Hatorah actively seek out less observant Jews, and groups like Chabad teach that this will lead to the redemption of the world. The result is that groups which, on paper, are far more strict and hardline end up attracting those who are less observant and giving them a warmer welcome than groups which, on paper, are more liberal.

I remember reading threads about tights and socks on imamother.com. There were women who seriously got obsessed with this stuff, and others who would poke fun at the obsession.

[anjulibai]

The outreach to non-Orthodox Jews makes some experiences I had in college make more sense.

On several occasions (usually around the High Holidays) while I was walking around campus, I had Orthodox Jews stop and ask me if I was Jewish. I'd tell them sorry, no and they'd move on.

I always thought it was odd, but it makes more sense now.

[jaelh]

shedemei, that story is just awful.

[shedemei]

shedemei, that story is just awful.

Yup. :(

[Dandruff]

If they each really wanted to get married, then why didn't they use professional matchmakers vs. friends they had in common? I also don't understand why he gave her a second chance after she promised to not write about him, then wrote about him (that would have ended it for me). Hope they're on the same page now - no pun intended - and that the marriage is good.