Are JB and Michelle getting worse?

[SassyPants]

Recently, a business colleague of my hub's sent him a humorous email. We are all at, or near retirement age. This email contained a graph plotting the relationship between advancing age and the giving a shit factor. Obviously as age increased, the give a shit factor dropped.

I am 55, recently retired, and my give a shit quotient has pretty much bottomed out. Perhaps, JB's and M's has too.

Unfortunately, they still have little kids at home and need to continue to act like they're on their game.

[Four is Enough]

I don't think JB would sexually abuse his daughters. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Jana was one of Gothard's girls, though.

I've thought... THIS. I don't get that vibe from JB, but I sure did from GotHard.

[snarkykitty]

What bugs me most about the situation is that the adult children aren't allowed to think about sex or have curiosity without having to confess to their parents, yet JB is allowed to say anything he wants to about their sexuality. It made me sick to my stomach when he said to Derick and Jill that he looked forward to hearing that they had conceived in that very room. Not "you're expecting" but "you had sex and your husband's sperm united with your eggs".

Who THINKS about that sort of thing?? It's one thing to communicate and educate - in fact, I believe it's irresponsible to NOT do so, but I think that it's disgusting to expect your kids to tell you about their "urges" and "internal struggles" as if they had sinned.

He's so creepy and disgusting that I don't think I could even be in the same room if our paths happened to cross. He leaks his bad energy all the way through the dang television.

[eh02]

I think it's pretty irresponsible to even casually speculate about any type of sexual abuse within their family. Having "someone who knows them told someone who told me" as a reference isn't good enough to warrant bringing up that kind of rumor. I mean, I'm not big fan of Josh and John David, but the only person who should make claims like that is a victim. I'm totally on board with thinking Jana looks depressed lately, but it is a biiiig stretch assuming sibling sexual abuse is behind it...

I could see the kids getting isolated or punished for smaller things like having a private text to a friend or someone they are interested in get intercepted, for ever suggesting they aren't interested in "courtship," maybe for getting caught looking at porn or something along those lines. I might be giving them too much credit, but after 19 kids I don't think JB+M would have the energy to punish them for masturbating. All kids touch themselves (to varying extents). You'd be wrangling horny kids nonstop past a certain age.

[HarleyQuinn]

Honestly, I know it's wrong to speculate about sexual abuse, but I'm glad someone mentioned it, because I've thought about that as well and was too afraid to ever bring it up. I definitely get those vibes from Gothard, that wouldn't surprise me in the least. I'm still a fairly new Duggar watcher, and the more I watch JB, the more pervy he seems. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if anything inappropriate happened in that house.

I know no parent wants to talk to their kids about masturbating, but I always get the feeling that Boob and J'chelle have explicitly told their kids that they will go to hell if they do it and that's wrong because you've got to do something (legal) with those urges. You can't just hold them in.

[eh02]

Gothard is different IMO and totally fair game. While still I think it's a stretch to assume that any type of vague sexual abuse (that we have no real reason to assume did or didn't happen) is behind Jana's behavior, it's at least somewhat reasonable to be concerned about someone with a well-documented history of inappropriate conduct at the very least, serious molestation if we're being more real, and possibly, but hopefully not, rape and/or more extreme psychological abuse.

I can play devil's advocate on some issues with the Duggars, but continuing to accept endorsement deals, speaking engagements and paychecks from Gothard's minions is truly sickening. They should be absolutely ashamed that they even pretend to shelter their children when they continually exposed them to predators. At the VERY least they could come out in some sort of public media to say they are disgusted by his actions and no longer support him - and that is really at the very least...

It's different to out of the blue make a claim like that about her own family members though, especially when the supposed aggressor would have been a minor too. It's just not worth speculating about IMO and I really don't think we have ever seen anything to suggest that has happened beyond one mysterious person who claimed to have insider knowledge.

[Pretzel]

I'd like to remind people that speculating about someone abusing someone else (i.e. someone &someone's own daughter) without ANY kind of evidence but the "creep vibe" is a very serious issue and should not be promoted here on FJ.

Let's all keep in mind that TLC is still a network, and networks like to attract viewers with out of the ordinary shows. 19 K&C is one of them. Of course the TLC minions in the cutting room know exactly what they're doing when they're cutting tapings and the people staging the episode also know what they're doing. I'd bet 10 bucks that they script most of all those awkward JB moments. We all continue watching because it creeps us the hell out, right? It's supposed to be like that. I don't believe for a second that the executives @TLC continue on broadcasting 19K&C to "encourage" others.

Sooo, I could imagine that the whole concept of JB being a somewhat of a creep is scripted to keep up the trainwreck. Judging only from watching the show if somebody could be a predator is pointless.

[BrownieMomma]

Overt sexualizing his daughters is a form abuse and possibly "covert incest".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_incest

Just saying, this tends to happen a lot more when the parent is single. I think JB&M have emotional attachments, I think JB is just over the top about sex in general and thinks his "headship" is more than it is.

I am sure Jesus cringes at JB's disgusting sexual behavior, i.e. on the golf course and comments like in the Dillard's bedroom.

[bluehydrangea]

I think it's pretty irresponsible to even casually speculate about any type of sexual abuse within their family. Having "someone who knows them told someone who told me" as a reference isn't good enough to warrant bringing up that kind of rumor. I mean, I'm not big fan of Josh and John David, but the only person who should make claims like that is a victim. I'm totally on board with thinking Jana looks depressed lately, but it is a biiiig stretch assuming sibling sexual abuse is behind it...

I could see the kids getting isolated or punished for smaller things like having a private text to a friend or someone they are interested in get intercepted, for ever suggesting they aren't interested in "courtship," maybe for getting caught looking at porn or something along those lines. I might be giving them too much credit, but after 19 kids I don't think JB+M would have the energy to punish them for masturbating. All kids touch themselves (to varying extents). You'd be wrangling horny kids nonstop past a certain age.

This. Thank you. Not chastising anyone directly, but I think it's really reckless to suggest that sexual abuse might be the reason that someone looks "sad" on TV. Especially at the hands of a sibling...that's really, really unfair to them.

[Walking Cat Bed]

I don't think JB would sexually abuse his daughters. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Jana was one of Gothard's girls, though.

I definitely have the same suspicion about Jana. I hope it's not the case (I wouldn't wish that on ANYONE), but...yeah.

It might be part of the reluctance to marry her off, too, IF she was one of Gothard's assistantsvictims.

[HarleyQuinn]

Sooo, I could imagine that the whole concept of JB being a somewhat of a creep is scripted to keep up the trainwreck. Judging only from watching the show if somebody could be a predator is pointless.

I don't think the creep part is scripted at all. I think the editors just leave it in because they know people like a trainwreck, not because they're encouraging one. JB seems to do that on his own.

[jingerdoe]

I thought we knew TLC was one of us, ultimately. Why else would they show JB speaking in gringo spanglish-eze at random people in Nepal?

[It'sFunToRun]

Just saying, this tends to happen a lot more when the parent is single. I think JB&M have emotional attachments, I think JB is just over the top about sex in general and thinks his "headship" is more than it is.

I am sure Jesus cringes at JB's disgusting sexual behavior, i.e. on the golf course and comments like in the Dillard's bedroom.

Jesus cringes?

[16strong]

I don't get the vibe that Jim Bob would do something to any of his kids, but who knows? Personally, I think it is more likely that someone in their community (including Gothard) would do something. They have so many people in and out of their house. It wouldn't be hard for a visitor to drag a kid into the guest house where they were staying.

[keen23]

Jesus cringes?

Atlas shrugs. Jesus cringes.

[Zasha]

I just wanted to clarify that the reason I mentioned that I had seen that random weird fb comment was to point out that it's not credible. I was never, ever implying I thought that was true.

My thoughts on the whole abuse possibility are that if anything has happened, a. I doubt we'll ever find out unless a kid spills the beans and b. it's more likely to have come from Gothard and his minions. But I would NEVER speculate about one of the brothers because that's just a terrible thing to accuse someone of. Gothard, however, has a history which makes me feel like, as a parent, I'd be horrified right now if I'd ever exposed any of my children to him. As should be Michelle and JB. I agree they should be addressing it by coming out and saying they are disgusted by his actions and do not support him. They haven't done that. It raises concerns because to continue to believe in and follow someone like that puts their children at greater risk. I hope they're taking precautions.

But JB is actively and cheerfully cultivating an environment that is NOT sexually healthy so it's hard not to worry about that, at least on some small level.

[CorruptionInc.]

Recently, a business colleague of my hub's sent him a humorous email. We are all at, or near retirement age. This email contained a graph plotting the relationship between advancing age and the giving a shit factor. Obviously as age increased, the give a shit factor dropped.

I am 55, recently retired, and my give a shit quotient has pretty much bottomed out. Perhaps, JB's and M's has too.

Unfortunately, they still have little kids at home and need to continue to act like they're on their game.

My father is going to be 70 in December and his give a shit factor is so small it's actually funny.

[riverofchange]

To me it seems that JB started getting more vocal with sexual talk right before and after Jubilee died escalating to a ten when Jill started her courtship. He has said and implied things that shouldn't even mentioned to your daughter.

This last season has been bad enough with innuendo and jokes that I won't let my nephew or niece watch with me anymore. I am an open book with them but it doesn't matter you ain't ever fully ready to explain sex to your kids :pink-shock: and if I can hold off the conversation and keep their innocence longer so be it ;)

[nastyhobbitses]

It wouldn't surprise me if JB might abuse his daughters. He's so interested in their sex lives and views them as property. And it wouldn't surprise me if Gothard or one of their brothers or another authority figure abuse them. They will hide it and make the girl feel guilty about it

While I certainly hope he didn't (also I tend to shy away from speculating about abuse solely because it can be a very, very touchy subject), you know that if any of the girls were sexually abused, they would be made to feel like it was their fault and not be given proper help. WTF Fundie Families recently put up an image of a sheet, allegedly from ATI, about how to talk to a girl who has been sexually assaulted. Of course, it basically says "oh, this will make you spiritually stronger and also this probably happened because you dress like a slut and don't love Jesus enough" and makes distinctions between sexual abuse that is the girl's fault and isn't the girl's fault. Vomiting yet? I almost did. The only, ONLY thing they were close to getting right was telling girls that they should report sexual assault, though even there they missed the mark: "failure to report lets other girls get abused", which is not a very good thing to say, because it only brings about more guilt and shame. (image here, link broken: http://wtffundiefamilies.tumblr .com/post/100608947965/boopoo29-this-is-the-worksheet-that-ati-iblp)

[BrownieMomma]

To me it seems that JB started getting more vocal with sexual talk right before and after Jubilee died escalating to a ten when Jill started her courtship. He has said and implied things that shouldn't even mentioned to your daughter.

This last season has been bad enough with innuendo and jokes that I won't let my nephew or niece watch with me anymore. I am an open book with them but it doesn't matter you ain't ever fully ready to explain sex to your kids :pink-shock: and if I can hold off the conversation and keep their innocence longer so be it ;)

I was wondering when it seemed to escalate to this level of grossness and that's what I was thinking. I am sure Michelle has had a difficult time dealing with the end of her fertility and it would be logical for her to be less interested in sex.

I had a rather heated conversation with someone from my church as I began to not like the Duggars much at all and the person's defense was this was TV they could watch with their young kids - all under age 5 and the older kids could even identify some of the Duggars. Wonder if they still let their kids watch after that mini putt putt episode? Ugh. Makes my skin crawl.

[16strong]

I was wondering when it seemed to escalate to this level of grossness and that's what I was thinking. I am sure Michelle has had a difficult time dealing with the end of her fertility and it would be logical for her to be less interested in sex.

I had a rather heated conversation with someone from my church as I began to not like the Duggars much at all and the person's defense was this was TV they could watch with their young kids - all under age 5 and the older kids could even identify some of the Duggars. Wonder if they still let their kids watch after that mini putt putt episode? Ugh. Makes my skin crawl.

Probably. They're married Christians, so it's okay. After all, they aren't showing collarbone, watching TV, or swearing. :roll:

[CorruptionInc.]

Probably. They're married Christians, so it's okay. After all, they aren't showing collarbone, watching TV, or swearing. :roll:

Don't forget they're not showing their knees either and "drawing attention to their faces!"

[calimojo]

I don't JB doing anything like that with his daughters. I think much of the stupid stuff he says is scripted or encouraged.

I did recently watch the Josiah arm "pull" episode and in and earlier section from that show, a viewer asked what would happen if one of the kids "accidentally kissed someone". JB kind of laughed it off, but Michelle got a coldness in her voice and face and when she responded and said something like "Well, they shouldn't be doing that or something". She looked almost angry to me, and I got a weird vibe from her. I think some of the Courting rules are really more from her.

Anyway, from her response, I just have to believe there is more to her story. I don't want to speculate other than to say I think she has some sort of scarring, emotionally, from her past.

I think Jana has other reasons to be discontent in her life. Lets just hope that sexual abuse is not one of them.

But, Aside from actual physical sexual abuse, I do think that JB and M's attitudes about sin, shame over perfectly natural urges and attractions, etc. create a very unhealthy environment for these kids, particularly as the go through puberty and sexual maturity. Any pervasive attitude of shame over sex, and of course blaming of women for tempting the weaker men, is twisted and abusive.

I really hope that these kids will have a chance to learn and hear some other ideas about life, the world, relationships, etc.

[CorruptionInc.]

I don't JB doing anything like that with his daughters. I think much of the stupid stuff he says is scripted or encouraged.

I did recently watch the Josiah arm "pull" episode and in and earlier section from that show, a viewer asked what would happen if one of the kids "accidentally kissed someone". JB kind of laughed it off, but Michelle got a coldness in her voice and face and when she responded and said something like "Well, they shouldn't be doing that or something". She looked almost angry to me, and I got a weird vibe from her. I think some of the Courting rules are really more from her.

Anyway, from her response, I just have to believe there is more to her story. I don't want to speculate other than to say I think she has some sort of scarring, emotionally, from her past.

I think Jana has other reasons to be discontent in her life. Lets just hope that sexual abuse is not one of them.

But, Aside from actual physical sexual abuse, I do think that JB and M's attitudes about sin, shame over perfectly natural urges and attractions, etc. create a very unhealthy environment for these kids, particularly as the go through puberty and sexual maturity. Any pervasive attitude of shame over sex, and of course blaming of women for tempting the weaker men, is twisted and abusive.

I really hope that these kids will have a chance to learn and hear some other ideas about life, the world, relationships, etc.

I think it's clear that Mullet is more of a looney tune than JB.

[paintergurl]

"Don't forget they're not showing their knees either and "drawing attention to their faces!"

Countenances. Their countenances!!! !

countenanceseses