Shraders in Zambia - Welcome to Poisonwood, Stephen- Part 3

[formergothardite]

He made up some very damning and damaging lies about the Duggars and now it sounds like he is trying to blame other people for his lies remaining here for so long. The solution would be to not make up lies in the first place so then you aren't in the horrible position of having your lies being spread about.

It is rather silly and childish to try and claim the administrators deleted a post of his when he admits that he probably just didn't hit submit. It is like he is trying to find someone to blame for his lies being on the internet besides himself.

Just to remind SF, he originally said that we shouldn't think Josh takes better care of his kids than John because the house Josh lived in was in such horrible shape that living in a pop-up camper would have been better. You made them out to be slumlords and now you are back peddling like crazy.

[happy atheist]

The problems were fixed. I traded it with an issue that I found later. I thought it had a bad wheel bearing and am not a mechanic in any sense. I traded it for another vehicle that worked well for me. Good news for the guy who got mine is that it turned out to just needs some tires.

I got the reaction I expected. You guys have no idea what you are talking about. You have your own presuppositions from your own world view and want desperately to paint all of these people into your own image to meet your prejudices. Then you can attack!

As to why I am back to clarify. I thought I did it before I left the forum. When I came back to read the other day I saw it was not there other than a small post saying they were "good people" that did not have much time. My original thought was that an administrator here had deleted the post I know I typed out, in order make me look like I was throwing them under the bus. I was going to get back on the complain about that. But it is just as likely that I just did not hit submit although I still do not doubt that it could have been FJ that removed it. I am willing to assume that I made the mistake because I have done that before. It just came down to me reading the thread and had an "oh no" feeling that I left it that way for so long.

!	{TEXT1}:
	We do not delete. What a ridiculous assertion.

[thoughtful]

As to why I am back to clarify. I thought I did it before I left the forum. When I came back to read the other day I saw it was not there other than a small post saying they were "good people" that did not have much time. My original thought was that an administrator here had deleted the post I know I typed out, in order make me look like I was throwing them under the bus. I was going to get back on the complain about that. But it is just as likely that I just did not hit submit although I still do not doubt that it could have been FJ that removed it. I am willing to assume that I made the mistake because I have done that before. It just came down to me reading the thread and had an "oh no" feeling that I left it that way for so long.

You must have forgotten to hit "submit" -- in general, the policy at FJ is that people need to stand behind their words, and whatever they post will not be removed.

As for the issue of posting under pseudonyms, that is because, as others have said, we understand how the Internet works. I am one of the oldest people posting on this thread -- I was born when television was a new fad and the Internet was not even on the horizon. And yet, even I know not to have an Internet presence under my real name unless I want to be open to whatever reactions I get.

The Shraders, Duggars, Mark Driscoll, Doug Phillips, etc. are no more private than the Kardashians, and no more entitled to having everyone ignore the things they do that are worrisome or shocking.

I have a feeling you are stereotyping the people here. But I have been reading and posting here for years, and I think the picture is a lot broader than you imagine. Here is a list, off the top of my head, of the knowledge and worldviews that might lead FJers to be concerned about John Shrader:

- worrying when children are in danger - this may be the biggest issue for most people.

- having experienced being ripped off, controlled, or otherwise hurt by the style of religion that John espouses.

- recognizing that many of the Zambians John encounters are already Christian, and in no need of converting.

- recognizing that many of the Zambians John encounters, Christian or not, are in no need of converting.

- having experienced mission work, including in Africa, and being able to recognize how badly John is doing things.

- having traveled to Africa, and being able to recognize how badly John is doing things.

- being Christians, happy in their faith, who are concerned about the obnoxious, culturally insensitive, heretical, etc. things that others do in the name of "Christianity."

- being concerned about patriarchy, and women being wedged into lives that are damaging.

- having learned to spot a scam.

- having learned to be careful where their charity dollars go.

- having learned to spot a clueless, naive fool (and we do have some differences of opinion about where John falls on the purposefully scamming/just a disorganized idiot spectrum).

And I'm sure I'm missing dozens of reasons why the various members of FJ who have posted on this thread would naturally think "WTF is wrong with this guy?" when reading the details John Shrader makes public about himself, his "mission," and his family.

[treehugger]

Ah, Shraderfriend - the reason we snark on the Shaders and not on a million other missionaries (although there are a few besides the Shaders that have made it onto this board) is because it is incredibly rare to come across such incompetent missionaries. And yes, I know of what I speak - being an MK who spend 16+ years on the mission field in a country busting at the seams with missionaries. As I pointed out on the very first Shrader thread:

I have known a lot of missionaries. The really good ones don't ask their donors for unnecessary items. As John has no discernible skills that would make him invaluable in the mission field that I know of - the plane, the troupie and the paper cutter would probably count as unnecessary. Then again, I have no respect for a mission board that doesn't properly vet and train their missionaries either. And I have no idea why people would donate to a missionary who doesn't have a crystal clear plan and mission statement. Sorry, I have personally known way too many grifter missionaries - and while they irritate me to no end, even they had a better plan than the Shraders.

[shraderfriend]

I did not say it was deleted. I was saying that thought was my first reaction.

I made a very poor and wrong choice in how I went about conversing on this forum. I should not have painted the picture that was painted by exaggerating the conditions to see your response. I still do not see what problems you all have with the Duggars though since we all agree that they provide well for their family. That was the only problem you had with John (I am the only one here that feels he has done good for them i guess). The more I meet people that have known John personally throughout his life my view of him as a provider is only enhanced. If I ever come across the Duggars again or their contact info, i will apologize to them.

I do not think that having your family in a travel trailer or RV is a bad way to go, nor is it mistreating them in any way. you guys are just ridiculous, and seemingly want to put your own controls on how others live and do things.

Who are your landlord friends, I would like to view some houses of theirs. In my life I have rented houses from very reputable property managers and have had mold in Oregon, Nebraska and California. Have had bacteria in well water in California that caused rash. Have had chinese sheetrock in a new construction house in California that made us sick. I have had leaks, and so on. These are houses that were nice newer homes that run $1100-$1500/month. I have never had a landlord that did anything about it other than the Duggars. Even reporting the problems to the appropriate parties brought no results. One thing I have learned over the years is to never ever sign a lease unless they allow a way out for health issues because if they want a lease it is because there is an issue and they need the contract so you cannot leave. I doubt your landlord friends are any different than the others. The difference with the Duggars is that you could actually talk to them and something would get done. When you are in an older house in humid climates, there will be mold. There was no dangerous black mold, just mold. It is only an issue with mold allergies which my family has but for the general public it is not an issue and not a violation of any housing law.

[It'sFunToRun]

I did not say it was deleted. I was saying that thought was my first reaction.

I made a very poor and wrong choice in how I went about conversing on this forum. I should not have painted the picture that was painted by exaggerating the conditions to see your response. I still do not see what problems you all have with the Duggars though since we all agree that they provide well for their family. That was the only problem you had with John (I am the only one here that feels he has done good for them i guess). The more I meet people that have known John personally throughout his life my view of him as a provider is only enhanced. If I ever come across the Duggars again or their contact info, i will apologize to them.

I do not think that having your family in a travel trailer or RV is a bad way to go, nor is it mistreating them in any way. you guys are just ridiculous, and seemingly want to put your own controls on how others live and do things.

Who are your landlord friends, I would like to view some houses of theirs. In my life I have rented houses from very reputable property managers and have had mold in Oregon, Nebraska and California. Have had bacteria in well water in California that caused rash. Have had chinese sheetrock in a new construction house in California that made us sick. I have had leaks, and so on. These are houses that were nice newer homes that run $1100-$1500/month. I have never had a landlord that did anything about it other than the Duggars. Even reporting the problems to the appropriate parties brought no results. One thing I have learned over the years is to never ever sign a lease unless they allow a way out for health issues because if they want a lease it is because there is an issue and they need the contract so you cannot leave. I doubt your landlord friends are any different than the others. The difference with the Duggars is that you could actually talk to them and something would get done. When you are in an older house in humid climates, there will be mold. There was no dangerous black mold, just mold. It is only an issue with mold allergies which my family has but for the general public it is not an issue and not a violation of any housing law.

Thanks for clearing that up! I asked you some questions, but since I'm a ninja, my posts get stuck in places where you think you already read, so you don't always notice them. Only really cool FJ members have this amazing ability. Anyway, I asked:

What kind of secret meetings and conventions do you fundies go to, and what goes on during them? Do they ever discuss abuse? How do you punish your children? What happens if your wife disagrees with you? Who do you think is going to hell (Jews, Catholics, etc)? What kinds of sex are you allowed to have (anal, etc)? Did you get an invitation to Jessa Duggar's wedding?

[Curious]

When I started on FJ, I was a lot more paranoid about not giving any personal information, so I was even careful to disguise my gender and not say anything that would let on that I'm female, and then people were talking about me and referring to me as "she", and I was like "why do they think that?", then I figured out that everyone on FJ is a girl, even the people with male or neutral sounding user names. For like the first month or so, I had assumed that about half the people were male :lol:

We have some male posters. There are not many of them, but they aren't unicorns ;)

[Curious]

I got the reaction I expected. You guys have no idea what you are talking about. You have your own presuppositions from your own world view and want desperately to paint all of these people into your own image to meet your prejudices. Then you can attack!

It's like they give out a manual or we are being punked by Ken. :shock:

[SquirrelySquirrel]

At least twice now you have said we want to control how the Shraders and other fundies live. That is just not true. The vast majority of FJers do not want to legislate others' lives, other than wanting to see child abuse/neglect stopped. I dare you to prove otherwise. Go ahead, find some direct quotes that show users here want to create laws controlling others.

It would be those you defend who want to legislate OUR lives by outlawing things like birth control and abortion, and keeping the wimmenz at home barefoot and knocked up.

Fuck off, Shraderfriend. You're a boring troll, and with a friend like you, who needs enemies?

[Curious]

As to why I am back to clarify. I thought I did it before I left the forum. When I came back to read the other day I saw it was not there other than a small post saying they were "good people" that did not have much time. My original thought was that an administrator here had deleted the post I know I typed out, in order make me look like I was throwing them under the bus. I was going to get back on the complain about that. But it is just as likely that I just did not hit submit although I still do not doubt that it could have been FJ that removed it. I am willing to assume that I made the mistake because I have done that before. It just came down to me reading the thread and had an "oh no" feeling that I left it that way for so long.

That's a pretty serious accusation, so it's a good thing you did not make it *ahem*. We DO NOT delete posts here. We certainly don't need to delete posts to make people look bad. In my experience, people do a fine job of that all on their own.

At worst, your post would have been archived and could easily have been returned to it's thread if it was archived mistakenly, but we all know that did not happen.

You have SOME NERVE, buddy.

You really are Ken's doppelganger.

[It'sFunToRun]

We have some male posters. There are not many of them, but they aren't unicorns ;)

I just yesterday learned that unicorns really do exist; they're just rhinoceroses.

[Curious]

I did not say it was deleted. I was saying that thought was my first reaction.

I made a very poor and wrong choice in how I went about conversing on this forum. I should not have painted the picture that was painted by exaggerating the conditions to see your response. I still do not see what problems you all have with the Duggars though since we all agree that they provide well for their family. That was the only problem you had with John (I am the only one here that feels he has done good for them i guess). The more I meet people that have known John personally throughout his life my view of him as a provider is only enhanced. If I ever come across the Duggars again or their contact info, i will apologize to them.

I do not think that having your family in a travel trailer or RV is a bad way to go, nor is it mistreating them in any way. you guys are just ridiculous, and seemingly want to put your own controls on how others live and do things.

Who are your landlord friends, I would like to view some houses of theirs. In my life I have rented houses from very reputable property managers and have had mold in Oregon, Nebraska and California. Have had bacteria in well water in California that caused rash. Have had chinese sheetrock in a new construction house in California that made us sick. I have had leaks, and so on. These are houses that were nice newer homes that run $1100-$1500/month. I have never had a landlord that did anything about it other than the Duggars. Even reporting the problems to the appropriate parties brought no results. One thing I have learned over the years is to never ever sign a lease unless they allow a way out for health issues because if they want a lease it is because there is an issue and they need the contract so you cannot leave. I doubt your landlord friends are any different than the others. The difference with the Duggars is that you could actually talk to them and something would get done. When you are in an older house in humid climates, there will be mold. There was no dangerous black mold, just mold. It is only an issue with mold allergies which my family has but for the general public it is not an issue and not a violation of any housing law.

Dude! Seriously, I gather you are used to talking to people that have the IQ of roughly a rock, but we are just slightly about that here at FJ.

There are these things called laws and specifically ones called Landlord/Tenant Laws. They stop things like you are talking about from happening. Landlords do not just require a lease because something is wrong and they are trying to trap tenants. FFS, you even use Ken's style of arguments.

You aren't related to him by any chance are you?

[Curious]

I just yesterday learned that unicorns really do exist; they're just rhinoceroses.

No offense to rhinos. I quite like them, actually, but they are not as beautiful as unicorns. So I'll just go on thinking that unicorns are very rare, thankyouverymuch :)

[thoughtful]

I still do not see what problems you all have with the Duggars though since we all agree that they provide well for their family. That was the only problem you had with John (I am the only one here that feels he has done good for them i guess). The more I meet people that have known John personally throughout his life my view of him as a provider is only enhanced. If I ever come across the Duggars again or their contact info, i will apologize to them.

I do not think that having your family in a travel trailer or RV is a bad way to go, nor is it mistreating them in any way. you guys are just ridiculous, and seemingly want to put your own controls on how others live and do things.

To the part I turned red -- not true. There are many objections to the lifestyle of both the Duggars and the Shraders.

"We guys" are a pretty diverse group, and about 7000 people are forum members -- you may want to start using such qualifiers as "some." Or, you could take the radical step of actually answering individuals.

Some of us may well be ridiculous. But I don't think most of us want to put controls on anyone -- on the contrary, many of us, as has been said, are very concerned about others controlling us, and the very real threat of laws being passed that are based on a narrow religious belief.

Many of the people who have posted on this thread and the one about the family of 13 crammed in an RV (part one is here, if you want to check it out - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23223) see parents who are not giving their children a full education, not always providing for them, and may even be endangering them.

[formergothardite]

I did not say it was deleted. I was saying that thought was my first reaction.

I made a very poor and wrong choice in how I went about conversing on this forum. I should not have painted the picture that was painted by exaggerating the conditions to see your response. I still do not see what problems you all have with the Duggars though since we all agree that they provide well for their family. That was the only problem you had with John (I am the only one here that feels he has done good for them i guess). The more I meet people that have known John personally throughout his life my view of him as a provider is only enhanced. If I ever come across the Duggars again or their contact info, i will apologize to them.

I do not think that having your family in a travel trailer or RV is a bad way to go, nor is it mistreating them in any way. you guys are just ridiculous, and seemingly want to put your own controls on how others live and do things.

Who are your landlord friends, I would like to view some houses of theirs. In my life I have rented houses from very reputable property managers and have had mold in Oregon, Nebraska and California. Have had bacteria in well water in California that caused rash. Have had chinese sheetrock in a new construction house in California that made us sick. I have had leaks, and so on. These are houses that were nice newer homes that run $1100-$1500/month. I have never had a landlord that did anything about it other than the Duggars. Even reporting the problems to the appropriate parties brought no results. One thing I have learned over the years is to never ever sign a lease unless they allow a way out for health issues because if they want a lease it is because there is an issue and they need the contract so you cannot leave. I doubt your landlord friends are any different than the others. The difference with the Duggars is that you could actually talk to them and something would get done. When you are in an older house in humid climates, there will be mold. There was no dangerous black mold, just mold. It is only an issue with mold allergies which my family has but for the general public it is not an issue and not a violation of any housing law.

If you don't understand the problem with the Duggars you need to read more of Free Jinger. Thoughtful has nicely provided a list of the various reasons people worry about the Shrader children, you seemed to have ignored it. Posters here have been actual missionaries and there has been at least one poster who has lived in the area John is currently living. There are a lot of reasons to question the wisdom of John's "mission" trip, how he treats his children is just one.

I think that living in an RV or camper if done correctly, would be fun. We have one poster here who did live in an RV for awhile But the key is doing it correctly. John didn't. A man who cares more about getting a picture for FB than about the safety of his children and other drivers isn't a man who is going to make sure that living in a pop-up is in the best interest of his children.

We had a parent teacher meeting with my oldest daughter's teacher recently. She started it off by saying she understood why my daughter hasn't been able to get all of her homework done since her younger sister had been going through so much medically. My husband and I sat there with blank looks on our faces because not only had our daughter been showing us homework every night that she was doing, there had been no medical problems with her younger sister that would have prevented her from doing all the homework. By the end of the meeting we discovered that our daughter had been greatly exaggerating the medical problems her sister has and had been implying that that was the reason she didn't get all her homework done. When we came home to talk to my daughter the first thing she said was "I didn't lie. Everything I said was true and I never told her that was the reason I didn't do my homework." Now, technically, everything she had said about her sister WAS true, but she had exaggerated it just like you did Shrader Friend. And she had never actually said that her sister's medical problems were why she didn't complete all of her homework, but she implied it, just like you did SF with this line:

although I still do not doubt that it could have been FJ that removed it.

We had to have a talk to her about how exaggerating the truth and implying things that aren't true is still lying. She is ten, you are a grown adult, yet you are still trying to make it seem like you didn't make up lies about the Duggars and Free Jinger deleting your posts. You don't get a pass on lying and spreading horrible rumors just because you wanted to get a reaction and meant to go back and tell everyone you were lying about the Duggars. I'm really hoping that by the time my daughter reaches your age she will have learned this lesson about lying better than you have. You are carefully wording things to where you don't call it what it is, lying.

[It'sFunToRun]

People are being overly dramatic about Shraderfriend's "post deleting" remark. Shraderfriend's very first mention of it was:

My original thought was that an administrator here had deleted the post I know I typed out, in order make me look like I was throwing them under the bus. I was going to get back on the complain about that. But it is just as likely that I just did not hit submit although I still do not doubt that it could have been FJ that removed it. I am willing to assume that I made the mistake because I have done that before.

So he didn't accuse FJ of deleting, he merely said it was his first thought, but despite that he still assumes it was his mistake. He hasn't been around FJ much to know how it works, and given that he probably mostly hangs around people like the Maxwells (who don't just delete comments, they edit them!) and Lori Alexander, it's a reasonable assumption to think that a post might get deleted because the admins didn't like it.

[shraderfriend]

I thought these were funny.

What kind of secret meetings and conventions do you fundies go to, and what goes on during them?

I have no idea what kind you have heard about. I would like to know. I have never been to a convention or a particular meeting other than normal church meetings.

Do they ever discuss abuse? I have discussed it at church with others.

How do you punish your children? Depends on what they did wrong. Usually lose a toy or they cannot play Minion Rush for a set time or something like that. If they willfully hurt somebody they may get a swat on the bottom. We in general are not "spanking" people.

What happens if your wife disagrees with you? She is usually right when we disagree as I am more impulsive than she is. Sometimes I do what I think is right, sometimes we do what she thinks.

Who do you think is going to hell (Jews, Catholics, etc)? People who have not put their faith in Jesus Chirst.

What kinds of sex are you allowed to have (anal, etc)? "allowed"? Who is the one allowing me to do any of this that you are talking about?

Did you get an invitation to Jessa Duggar's wedding? No

[shraderfriend]

I have no problem with calling exaggeration a lie. I was wrong to do so and did not think about it at the time when I was trying to understand why people here are so upset with people you do not know. That is no excuse for doing it in the first place.

One thing that is hard on this format is dealing with questions and comments from so many different folks. I tend to be very impulsive and reactionary which is why I do not do much social media as I usually have to go back and try to clarify things. It is also one reason I would not have been a good ATI dad. I am a normal person and don't like living with my guard up all of the time and having to careful construct all of my words. Sometimes I like to have a normal conversation with normal people and even joke around or say something sarcastic. I found that was not really looked well upon when we tried ATI for the short time we did it.

[It'sFunToRun]

I thought these were funny.

What kind of secret meetings and conventions do you fundies go to, and what goes on during them?

I have no idea what kind you have heard about. I would like to know. I have never been to a convention or a particular meeting other than normal church meetings.

Do they ever discuss abuse? I have discussed it at church with others.

How do you punish your children? Depends on what they did wrong. Usually lose a toy or they cannot play Minion Rush for a set time or something like that. If they willfully hurt somebody they may get a swat on the bottom. We in general are not "spanking" people.

What happens if your wife disagrees with you? She is usually right when we disagree as I am more impulsive than she is. Sometimes I do what I think is right, sometimes we do what she thinks.

Who do you think is going to hell (Jews, Catholics, etc)? People who have not put their faith in Jesus Chirst.

What kinds of sex are you allowed to have (anal, etc)? "allowed"? Who is the one allowing me to do any of this that you are talking about?

Did you get an invitation to Jessa Duggar's wedding? No

What do you think hell is like? Is it fire and torture, or being cut off from G-d? Does it last forever, or will G-d let you out after a while? Do you think that eternal hell is a fair punishment for people not believing in Jesus? What if someone was raised Jewish, or even raised in a primitive culture in the jungle and never heard of Jesus; is it right that they should be tortured forever? Why would a loving G-d create someone knowing that they'd live for a short time on earth and afterward be tortured forever?

Since a child rapist can only hurt your child in this life, but an atheist could lead your child away from Jesus and condemn them to eternal hell fire, would you prefer to have a rapist as a neighbor rather than an atheist? What should the government do to protect your children from the eternal harm that can be caused by atheists?

[guitar_villain]

We have some male posters. There are not many of them, but they aren't unicorns ;)

I suppose this is my cue for a first post on FJ? XY-type person here: Wife watches the 19K show, although I don't have enough nausea meds to get through an episode. I ended up here after she made a comment about something one of the kids had done and I was curious.

Since then I've been on an anthropological expedition through old posts- having lived in Lynchburg VA I'm well acquainted with fundy, but the window into FUNDY has been quite interesting.

[ViolaSebastian]

I was trying to understand why people here are so upset with people you do not know.

I can only speak for myself, but I am upset whenever I feel a child, or in this case, children are being poorly treated. Whether I know the children personally or not.

[anjulibai]

So, schraderfriend, what happened to the plane?

[It'sFunToRun]

I suppose this is my cue for a first post on FJ? XY-type person here: Wife watches the 19K show, although I don't have enough nausea meds to get through an episode. I ended up here after she made a comment about something one of the kids had done and I was curious.

Since then I've been on an anthropological expedition through old posts- having lived in Lynchburg VA I'm well acquainted with fundy, but the window into FUNDY has been quite interesting.

Poop. We get one guy around here, and he's married.

Just kidding. Welcome, guitar_villain.

[formergothardite]

Is it normal thing for you to lie so you can understand other people? Not lying about people who it seems were nice to you isn't having to keep your guard up or even having to carefully construct all your words, it is just being a decent human.

Do you actually know what happened to the plane or has nobody pressed John on the subject?

[It'sFunToRun]

More questions for Shraderfriend: Do you make your daughters have long hair and not let them wear pants? What would you do if one of your daughters wanted to wear pants? What would you do if you had an 18 year old daughter who still lived at home and insisted on wearing pants? If you had an adult child who became a liberal christian or even not christian at all, would you allow them to still see their younger siblings? What if they were gay?