MERGE: Why Courtship is Fundamentally Flawed/Courtship

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Excellent discussion of courtship's flaws by a former courtship advvocae. http://www.thomasumstattd.com/2014/08/c ... ly-flawed/

[BrownieMomma]

Well. I read it. I think Grandma is remembering through rose colored glasses.

I'm not as old as Grandma but I am old enough to be a grandma. At no time of which I am aware can a girl date through 20 boys in her school and not end up with a reputation. I am just flat out very skeptical of that date Bob on Tuesday, Bill on Friday, and Bob again on Saturday.

Also, people of the Greatest Generation just generally did not divorce. Not because they have some lock on marriage which has been lost, but because in their heyday, divorce was social, economic and whoknowswhatelse suicide. They remained married for a lifetime because it was still a norm to do so. But.. let us not forget... in such a cultural climate, many women suffer at the mercy of men. Much harder to get away from abuser, much harder to support yourself let alone your children should your husband die, divorce you, disappear, or simply decide to not work or provide.

My daughter is 14. She just finished at what is probably a very normal American middle school - 8th grade. In a few weeks she will enter high school. I think it is safe to say that my daughter's culture is much more highly sexualized than Thomas' grandmother's. Last year, last few years, it was trendy to be bi-sexual. My virgin daughter is already a rarity within her own group of friends. These are the girls who have done well academically and socially - popular girls. That "date Bob, then Bill, then Bob" would be more like "blow Bob, make out with Babs, anal with Bill" then some kind of casual lets-go-grab-a-burger-and-gab as that sort of traditional dating where the boy picks up the girl is on the wane.

My older sons will do whatever is they want to do but both keep their distance from relationships. My daughter is a practicing Pentecostal Christian and she takes all this dating stuff seriously. She "went out with" one boy for about a week and they held hands in the hallways between classes. No attempt at contact outside of school.

One thing I will agree with Mr. Umstadd is that courtship means different things to different people. Of all the fundies I personally know, none of them have practiced such rigid courtship with the father's position so controlling.

It does not surprise me that courtship marriages end in divorce. One thing I have learned from homeschooling for many years is that homeschool kids are still kids. There are still major serious problems. Someone became an alcoholic. Someone else got a DWI. Some couldn't hack it in college.

I want more input in my daughter's dating than most people would probably like. I want her to be objective and not go out with some guy just because he's dangerously attractive. I want her to have a more objective viewpoint, to consider many things. I don't really want her to date casually but when she is older she can do whatever she wants. I would really just rather that she not have an unexpected pregnancy, that she not get suicidal because some jerk boyfriend dumped her.. I'd rather she focus on preparing herself for adult life, which includes education and a career option.

I don't agree courtship is fundamentally flawed but I will wholeheartedly agree that it can be misused by an over-controlling father.

[kpmom]

Yeah, the Bill on Tues, Bob on Fri, Bill on Sat. would not work today (or even in my day several decades ago).

However, I couldn't agree more with this;

"Less Heartbreak – One of the promises of courtship is that it can lead to less heartbreak than dating. I laugh at this to keep myself from crying. This could not be further from the truth. Calling off a courtship can be as emotionally wrenching as calling off an engagement. It can take years to recover from a “failed courtship.†Also let’s not also forget the emotional cost for girls of not being asked out year after year and the emotional cost for guys of being rejected by father after father."

How exactly is having your courtship fall through somehow less traumatic than a dating relationship falling through. I never understood that.

And the part about the emotional cost for the SAHDs seemed accurate too.

[chaotic life]

Lordy Mercy, Browniemomma, either your daughter is jerking your leg, or she most definitely does NOT attend a typical school.

My kids have been in half a dozen middle and high schools in three states and two geographical regions in the last five years and not ONE of my children would describe the scene at any of their schools what you describe is standard.

Nor would my high school ages siblings, of which I have three, nor my sister in college or my brother who just graduated from college, and I cannot count how many middle and high schools they attended in states from the West coast to the East coast in the last several years.

I have no doubt that teenagers are having sex, but the casual and hardcore sexual encounters you describe are not consistent with national statistics and trends.

gutmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html

Guttmacher and CDC statistics are consistent with what I have observed with my five teens and my three teen siblings.

[karen77]

Lordy Mercy, Browniemomma, either your daughter is jerking your leg, or she most definitely does NOT attend a typical school.

My kids have been in half a dozen middle and high schools in three states and two geographical regions in the last five years and not ONE of my children would describe the scene at any of their schools what you describe is standard.

Nor would my high school ages siblings, of which I have three, nor my sister in college or my brother who just graduated from college, and I cannot count how many middle and high schools they attended in states from the West coast to the East coast in the last several years.

I have no doubt that teenagers are having sex, but the casual and hardcore sexual encounters you describe are not consistent with national statistics and trends.

gutmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html

Guttmacher and CDC statistics are consistent with what I have observed with my five teens and my three teen siblings.

That is a relief to hear, Browniemama was scaring me half to death!! (my daughter starts K this year)

[Mama Mia]

Lordy Mercy, Browniemomma, either your daughter is jerking your leg, or she most definitely does NOT attend a typical school.

My kids have been in half a dozen middle and high schools in three states and two geographical regions in the last five years and not ONE of my children would describe the scene at any of their schools what you describe is standard.

Nor would my high school ages siblings, of which I have three, nor my sister in college or my brother who just graduated from college, and I cannot count how many middle and high schools they attended in states from the West coast to the East coast in the last several years.

I have no doubt that teenagers are having sex, but the casual and hardcore sexual encounters you describe are not consistent with national statistics and trends.

gutmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html

Guttmacher and CDC statistics are consistent with what I have observed with my five teens and my three teen siblings.

I think what she describes is exaggerated,but when my now 20 something kids were teens there were definitely a lot of kids who did a lot of very random hooking up in their early teens. When I attended the same middle school 25 years earlier it was most definitely the norm, among my peer group, to lose your virginity at 13 or 14 for girls, generally 14 or 15 for boys. That seemed to be the norm in my kids peer groups as well. And having double digit number of sexual partners by the time you left high school not all that unusual. The kids who ran with the more academic crowds tended to be a little older -15 or 16 for girls and 16 or 17 for boys, and with less random hook ups and more serious relationships at least that I was aware of-- but those kids were also much less open about that sort of thing with adults, in my experience.

The primary difference from when I was young, and now, seems to be that most kids would rate the intimacy hierarchy as intercourse- oral( especially male on female) - anal. While now some kids seem to go the opposite way if they have some idea they are technically preserving their virginity. And less bi-sexual or homosexual acceptability when I was young, obviously.

That's why I've always thought it was really important to have condoms somewhere your kids can access them easily, from puberty on. Obviously doesn't cover all the issues- but it can help.

[lawfulevil]

I graduated high school in the early 2000's, and academically successful young people were generally pretty busy doing homework/activities/volunteering. My best friend and I were both adults when we first had sex and drank alcohol. We knew some kids who got around, and "sexually active band geeks" is a stereotype for a reason, but this stuff is much more friend group based than anything else. Your kid is probably going to do what their friends are doing! Whether that's sex, weed, booze, reblogging cat gifs on Tumblr, working at the food pantry, debate team, or homework.

Also, this may be news to some of you, but kids lie about sex. A lot. I know because I asked my Canadian boyfriend. You wouldn't know him. He posts on a different forum.

[chaotic life]

The age of losing virginity is rising, the number of teens using contraceptive is rising, the number of sexual partners a teen reports having is dropping. This trend has been noted by the CDC for nearly a decade now. It is clearly outlined in the Guttmacher Institute link I posted. Only 17% of teens are reporting losing their virginity below age 15 in the link I posted.

I completely concur that teens will often do what their specific peer group is doing. However, I strongly dispute that high schools and middle schools are what has been presented in this thread, and this is typical teen sexual behaviors. My personal ancedotal experiences support exactly what the research has been saying for the last decade.

Teens talk a big talk, but self reporting studies are actually very reliable, as anonymous self reporting allows teens to be completely honest without consequences. There is little reason to believe teens are lying in these surveys about what they are doing, nor has that ever been suggested when the statistics indicated a negative picture as they have in the past. By their own self reports, teen-agers are not having these hook-ups, not as often, not as young, and not as prevalent as parents think and others are indicating.

I'm 100% supportive of making contraceptive and condoms easily accessible to teenagers. I'm also staunchly against courtship, said as someone who had a courtship and once advocated that my children would do courtships and were not permitted to date as teenagers because I didn't support casual dating. I also know that teens should be trusted and respected instead of being painted into caricatures of what adults *think* teen sexual activity is like in this day and age, because their own admissions do not support that caricature at all. Maybe an individual peer group or an individual geographical area, but not as a general trend amongst teens.

Courtship doesn't decrease teen sex anyway. That's one of the biggest myths about courtships that infuriates me, honestly. If anything, the uber focus on marriage can result in more sex amongst teens who are not allowed to admit they are tempted, much less that they have sex and are often completely uneducated and unprepared to have safe sex. I cannot tell you how many of my peers in Christian college campus ministries were on the cusp of the courtship concept and fell into the 'we're everything *but* married so we might as well work on that part of our relationship too' as the courtship movement was beginning.

[nelliebelle1197]

That is a relief to hear, Browniemama was scaring me half to death!! (my daughter starts K this year)

In another post, she says she is a homeschooler who does not think the state should have the right to ensure that HS'ers get a good education by approving curriculum. Browniemomma leaves me confused.

[Cheetah]

My daughter is 14. She just finished at what is probably a very normal American middle school - 8th grade. In a few weeks she will enter high school. I think it is safe to say that my daughter's culture is much more highly sexualized than Thomas' grandmother's. Last year, last few years, it was trendy to be bi-sexual. My virgin daughter is already a rarity within her own group of friends. These are the girls who have done well academically and socially - popular girls. That "date Bob, then Bill, then Bob" would be more like "blow Bob, make out with Babs, anal with Bill" then some kind of casual lets-go-grab-a-burger-and-gab as that sort of traditional dating where the boy picks up the girl is on the wane.

I'm sorry, but that's not average. I've got a 17 year old daughter. She does hang with the real academic crowd so that probably skews it a fair amount, but still, most of them haven't ever dated seriously. Of the few that have, I don't know if they are sexually active or not, but it's not multiple partners at a time, more like, date one guy for 6 to 8 months, break up, don't see anyone for a while, and then either get back together with him or find another guy to date for a longer term.

[JellyHope]

I graduated from a large, 5A, pretty typical high school, in 1998. I'm the oldest of 5, but my 4 siblings are all fairly younger than me. (3 girls, 2 boys.) We varied from homecoming queen, cheerleader, & athletes, to band geeks & studious. And what browniemomma described sounds more like a 90210 episode than what any of us experienced. 2 of us went to college virgins, the other 3 were 16, 17, & 18. (Yes, I know when my brothers lost their v-card. Weird, I know.) I'm not saying that stuff doesn't happen at all, but I don't think it's nearly as common as she made it sound. And it's definitely not treated that lackadaisical. Another thought... When I graduated high school, I'd say amongst my group of girlfriends, we were about half & half as far as who was still a virgin.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

This article was a big topic of discussion on Facebook today. Lots of really interesting comments from both sides.

ChaoticLife, I wonder if your experience with the courtship mindset and premarital sex was different in the college setting than it would be for the stay at homers.

[sockinshoe]

My daughter is 14. She just finished at what is probably a very normal American middle school - 8th grade. In a few weeks she will enter high school. I think it is safe to say that my daughter's culture is much more highly sexualized than Thomas' grandmother's. Last year, last few years, it was trendy to be bi-sexual. My virgin daughter is already a rarity within her own group of friends. These are the girls who have done well academically and socially - popular girls. That "date Bob, then Bill, then Bob" would be more like "blow Bob, make out with Babs, anal with Bill" then some kind of casual lets-go-grab-a-burger-and-gab as that sort of traditional dating where the boy picks up the girl is on the wane.

I'm sorry, but if that's what you're hearing from your daughter you may want to ensure that that is really the case. As a fairly recent high school grad, I can tell you that the "dating" scene was NOT like this at all. Yeah, there was a hook-up culture, but nobody was pressured to join or treated badly for choosing not to participate (some of my friends went to college without having been kissed, never mind sex). Also a lot of my peers were in committed high school relationships that were sexually active, but exclusive.

In middle school, there was no real sexual activity going on. Yeah, oral sex happened. Yeah, groping happened. But it's normal to experiment, provided you are in a safe, consensual setting. The attitude that "Oh these kids and their hook-up culture are so bad and are ruining their own lives" is really detrimental to the kids. If they feel that their behaviour is shameful and wrong, then they will keep it hidden and secret which not only enables abusers to take advantage of them, but also means they may not inform themselves and expose themselves to unnecessary risks.

Speaking of experimenting, experimenting with gender identity and sexuality is also completely normal. I was the first person in my high school/middle school (it was all-in-one at my school) to come out as bisexual. And let me tell you, Browniemomma, it SUCKED. I had to deal with the cruelest of the rumour mill, insensitive comments (such as "are you just doing it for the attention?"), and just general high school crap. That being said, bisexuality is not a trend. It isn't a crop top or a certain hair style. Bisexuality is an orientation, and young people should be able to question their orientation and experiment. If your daughter's friends say they're bisexual, believe them. Because by believing them, even if they're misrepresenting themselves, you will avoid "erasing" bisexuality, which is something that I know caused me a lot of anguish. And if they are "lying" about it, so what; they'll eventually mature and outgrow that kind of misrepresentation.

TLDR: Kids will experiment, try to make it safe for them by withholding judgment and providing a safe space to talk about their concerns and emotions and sexualities.

[formergothardite]

Courtship is based on the idea that you should not raise your children to be able to make their own decisions when it comes to important events like marriage and that adult children cannot be trusted to stick to their moral beliefs without mommy and daddy hovering over them and making sure that they don't stray from the narrow path of righteousness.

One of the big things the courtship proponents say is that courtship will keep the couple from "sinning". I think the real reason is that the parents are worried that if they treat their adult children like adults they will discover that their kids don't actually believe any of the purity stuff that the parents believe. They might form their own opinions, make their own decisions and do things that the parents don't approve of.

I don't know what the real numbers are, but just judging from the people I grew up with who did the who courtship thing the divorce rates seem pretty high.

[chaotic life]

I came before the stay at home daughter movement and as the courtship movement was emerging. Most girls, even the homeschooled girls, were still going to college at the time I went. I was heavily involved in campus ministries, lived in a Christian dorm (albeit at a secular university) and was in the thick of the courtship movement. While not everyone in my peer set bought into courtship, they did for the most part all consider it.

I also have what by all accounts would be considered a courtship success story. Most who came of age and did successfully marry as the courtship movement arose were in fact leaving dating, so as the author states I had dated previously and literally stopped dating to conform to the courtship concept.

I don't think the author's grandmother is 100% correct on what was happening in her generation, but I see her points. My own grandparents were exclusive by the time she was 14 and he was 16. She dated awhile before that point, but not much. They were also at some point shortly after being exclusive, sexually active. However, they also married when they were 18 and 20 and remained happily married until he died seven years ago in his 70s. Her point that you learn from dating who you are and what you want is very valid. While I left dating, it was those years of dating that did frame who and what I wanted in a spouse that I took into the courtship model in the first place.

The other problem with courtship at this point is quite literally the stay at home daughter movement within the homeschooling community. I was SO opposed to SAHDs that it was the beginning of my leaving fundamentalism and quiverful. I was staunchly offended that we would deny our daughters the very things that made us, as their mothers, who we ARE. If a woman is kept in the fold of her family and NEVER allowed outside that fold, she has NO opportunities to meet men in a non-dating environment in the first place. We met during boot camp training at Teen Missions. While there was no dating even allowed, we got to know each really well every day as he dragged stinky teens with minor ailments into the nursing station for me to patch them back up and send them back out. Places like Teen Missions and other Christian outlets to meet other Christian singles are DYING because families only do family oriented activities anymore.

You cannot do courtship if you cannot provide neutral activities for young adults to hang out and get to know each other. You would be forced to do arranged marriages, and the thing is the very nature of the courtship movement was to prove why it was NOT arranged marriages, nor do I think even those who subscribe to courtship would move to arranged marriages because of the negative cultural connotations. But, they are close enough that what are doing is NOT working.

Basically, I agree with almost everything the author is saying. Marriage was hard work. We were almost that courtship divorce statistic and we had to branch out and work harder to not. Honestly, I don't think the kids looking for marriage today without the background we had would succeed through the muck that we fought through. They are infantilized until they are set loose into serious marriage and expected to automatically flip a switch and be a mature, committed adult at that point. It is not a recipe for success, ime.

[BrownieMomma]

Just MO but I seriously doubt the divorce rate for courtship is any higher than the divorce rate in general. Homeschooling and courtship and any other method that parents might employ to affect and influence their children are not guarantees. The HS families I have known seem to realize that. This whole SAHD was not a part of my HS experience although I've come to realize that one of our families does indeed have a 25yo daughter that went to a Christian college for one semester, works in her family business but yes she does seem to be a SAHD.

My experience with homeschoolers was mostly not that of people like the Duggars. I only remember one family that kept pretty isolated and they lived in town, but even then they were still pretty isolated from other people.

Almost all the Christian homeschoolers I have known over the years, even the most fundie ones, all value opportunities to be with other people. It was really shocking to me to realize how the Duggars isolate their children. Except for that one family, hs'ers go a church and participate in a homeschool group, with monthly meetings not a once-a-year conference like ATI. There's homeschool basketball team and various other group activities. Proms.

You might find it surprising that some homeschool families might not homeschool all their kids. Both my sons have been homeschooled, one for almost all his education, that one will graduate from a state university next fall. The other one homeschooled for 7th grade and 9th grade, neither experience went well IMO and so he is going back to public school this fall. My daughter never attempted HS, has gone to public school her entire education life.

There was a time in the early homeschool years when I gulped down the kool aid, the whole socialist public school system was ebil but my opinions have changed since then. It really irked me when Michelle and some of the girls went to an elementary school to read to the students or something, and she's smirking to the camera that OH YES THEY BELIEVE IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS but I know the rest of the rhetoric behind that, the completion of that thought is that something should be done with the godless heathens children. Believe me, I quite read that episode as Queen Michelle throwing cake crumbs to the peasants by blessing them with the presence of the uber-blessed-Michelle-delivered-them-all Duggars.

The homeschoolers I've known who really felt called of God to homeschool their children and protect those children from the government schools would never set foot in a government school to read or anything. That's a building where God has been banned, and they aren't going to support it in any way.

Hmm, what else. Well, I have a good relationship with my daughter, I don't think she is filling my head with tales. However, I do quite well realize that what people tell her is not necessarily the truth. I am not concerned with ferreting out which of her friends is lying about their sexual activity or lack thereof. I talk to the kids myself, I talk to their parents, I talk to others in the community, it's just part of life, not some particular mission of mine. I want to understand what my kids are really up against here in their school.

Yes, I know these girls. I have known them since they were elementary. I know they do well academically but I also see they are way too involved with their boyfriend at an early age. I have seen them dumped and they feel destroyed. I have seem them cope with the guilt of breaking up and realizing the pain they've inflicted on someone else. Middle school girls. Cheerleaders. Band members. Advanced academic classes.

I want more for them. I want more for my daughter. I don't want them to feel they are defined by their man, or that being in a relationship makes them special, makes them be somebody. I already have the serial relationships. I can't see how this beneficial to their life overall when there is still so much school ahead plus I would consider all these girls college-bound.

Oh yes. I've also read the statistics that teen pregnancy are down. I also know it's no longer unusual to catch a girl giving a boy a blow job on the school campus. I am aware that kids are substituting oral/anal sex for intercourse either to technically remain a virgin or to avoid pregnancy. Avoiding pregnancy is a good thing, sexual activity too soon in life is not. That's my O.

Yes, courting or dating and then break up is going to break your heart. It's going to hurt. The hurt is worse when the couple has been sexually involved. I really do believe that.

My job as a parent has never been to protect my children from all hurt and disappointment but rather to teach them how to deal with it. It is inevitable. It has already happened, numerous times with varying degrees of pain. If I can get my daughter to avoid sexual activity, if I can get her to avoid a close, exclusive relationship, then she has a better chance to go to college. She has a better chance to learn to stand on her own two feet and be responsible for herself and her choices. She will never be a SAHD. She has a better of chance of doing better for herself if she can avoid too much relationship too early in life.

This is our culture. We keep kids in school until they are 18. Their hormones rage well before age 18. Then, the American dream is your kid to go to college. So I will be encouraging my daughter to avoid kissing, making out, spending all her free time with one boy - and for me, courtship is a far better model than dating.

It is a shame, honestly it truly is, that some good young men are turned away by the father because the kid does not live up to some ideal. However, the father that can turn away the jerk who is going to use his daughter, abuse her, mistreat her... whew. I hope those good young men find a great young woman but in all honesty, that father is going to be a cross to bear for the young husband. Those dads don't give up control easily.

I think I've answered everything in this thread.

[BrownieMomma]

Ah, sorry, another post.

So what were the aspirations for the girls of the Greatest Generation? As I understand it, the main goal in life was to get married. Girls were not expected to go to college, if they did, perhaps teacher college or secretarial school. I am pretty sure that even if these girls worked, they were expected to stop working when they got married, and the real goal was marriage.

It wasn't like that for me. I am 50yo. The battle was fought for me before I came of age. I always knew I could get married, I could go to college and study whatever I wanted, I didn't have to have kids, I didn't have to have kids right away. I had options. I had real choices.

Dating relationships these days, when starting so young, are not about defining what you want in a partner. If you are a college bound 14yo girl, you do not want to get into an exclusive relationship so young. I don't think that is a smart idea for any young girl. I do believe that no matter how your dating life, marriage is another animal. Someone that is great to date does not equate someone who is great to marry and have children with.

Marriage is work. There is no way to to guarantee that it will work for the rest of a person's life. That is something that both partners do every day - recommit themselves to being married. To their marriage. And not every partner does it, some marriage limp along with one partner very commited and the other quite noncommittal.

I am taking way too many words to say that while Mr. Umstadd's grandmother's experience might have worked way back then, it wouldn't work very well. I do not want my daughter dating Bob on Tues, going to the game Fri night with Bill, and then to the movies on Sat with Bob. Or Steve. I am very surprised that Mr. Umstadd seems to think this is solution to finding a lasting marriage.

[lawfulevil]

This is our culture. We keep kids in school until they are 18. Their hormones rage well before age 18. Then, the American dream is your kid to go to college. So I will be encouraging my daughter to avoid kissing, making out, spending all her free time with one boy - and for me, courtship is a far better model than dating.

Our culture (assuming America here) also has rising age of first marriage and less people ever getting married: media.washtimes.com/media/image/2012/02/06/marriage-graphic.jpg

My problem with "courtship" is it expects people to never have a meaningful romantic interaction with the opposite sex* until they're intending to marry. We've seen that go really badly for people, and even when it goes perfectly according to plan, it's still roughly akin to covering your 4 year old head to toe in pads and helmets but plunking them on a full size bike without training wheels.

*I don't see too many courtship families down with gay marriage.

[Firiel]

Take all this with several grains of salt, but I once (to my GREAT amusement) found a book on dating that my grandparents had read as young people and subsequently given to my father. It was super old-fashioned advice, but much better than When God Writes Your Love Story, IIRC.

The advice given in that book sounds like it jived really well with Umstadd's grandmother's depiction of dating. I remember there was a caution about being seen on "dates" with the same guy three times in a row because that could cause other guys to assume you were "going steady." The dates were things like going to get a soda, being walked home from the basketball game, and some other completely innocent activity. The general gist of it was that dating was just doing things with guys and getting to know them. They were all low-pressure activities that I would comfortably do with guy friends or girl friends.

Which reminds me. This is one thing that has always really appealed to me about LDS culture. They all go on dates. A lot of dates with a lot of people. And the dates don't really mean anything. It's just a low-pressure way to get to know someone. From what I've seen with my roommate and her group LDS friends, it seems very similar to what the grandmother talks about. MOST of these young people are not having sex with these folks they date once or twice. And it's normal for platonic friendships to develop after going on a couple dates with someone because the dates are so low-key that it's not even really rejection if things don't work out at that point. Their way of dating seems SO much less stressful than the "we hang out but I don't know if he likes me" to "committed and exclusive" thing that seems to be pretty common these days.

[Tiger Lily]

What I dislike most about patriarchy and the courtship movement is that the woman never seems to "own" herself. She's under the father's protection until her husband takes over. Her entire purpose in life is to marry and breed. In addition, these children (both male and female) are never allowed to make their own mistakes. Marriage is one of life's biggest decisions and I can't imagine not having any real say over who I marry! It has been said that love is a choice and I do believe that for the most part, however, there's a difference between: (1) making the choice every single day to honor that commitment to one you truly love; and (2) making that choice in a marriage where you know you could have and should have made a different choice all together. How tragic it would be to know that you've made the wrong choice.

I grew up in a fundamentalist church. It was screwed up in lots of ways yet it got some things right. Women were encouraged to get an education. All singles were encouraged to date often (only with those who believed in our church's teachings, of course) to get an idea of what they desired in a spouse, however, these dates were very laid back. Just about anything could be considered to be a date: singles' get together, meeting at the library, a dance, a Bible study, etc. They were encouraged not to go to the movies where there's no talking but to do activities where they could get to see the real person and how they'd react in a variety of situations. At the point where a relationship grew, the church also taught to get to know the person's family and how a man treated his mother and sister, etc. It goes without saying that our church taught purity yet they never dwelled on it unlike some I've seen. Most of us had been raised in that church so it was understood that we all had been taught the same values. As a result, the only thing it officially advocated for singles was to avoid certain situations if one wanted to avoid temptation and to have short engagements for the same reason. As far as I know, many (if not most) of the people who dated that way remained "pure" until the wedding night but again, the whole situation wasn't intrusive and the choice to abstain or not abstain was left up to the couple. There was none of this parental interference that I hear about from these Duggar-style groups which is really creepy, imo. Are these young people adults or not? If they're not, then should they be getting married? I believe it's best to allow children to make some mistakes so they can learn from them. Marriage should NOT be one of those mistakes and if making a few dating mistakes is necessary to have a good marriage, then it's worth it, imo.

The point I'm making is that no "system" is perfect yet I believe the one that involves free choice is much, much better than courtship which is basically asking for a daughter's hand from the get-go. Talk about pressure! No wonder these men are afraid to put it all out there from the beginning. No wonder these SAHDs aren't getting married. No wonder there's so much divorce. (BTW, I was shocked when I first read that, but it makes a lot of sense).

[It'sFunToRun]

Oh yes. I've also read the statistics that teen pregnancy are down. I also know it's no longer unusual to catch a girl giving a boy a blow job on the school campus. I am aware that kids are substituting oral/anal sex for intercourse either to technically remain a virgin or to avoid pregnancy. Avoiding pregnancy is a good thing, sexual activity too soon in life is not. That's my O.

Maybe it would help if you define "unusual". I have never seen or heard a first-person account of an on-school blow job.

edited for riffles

[Mama Mia]

Does anyone have any idea how common the courtship thing is? Are we talking hundreds of families? Thousands? A million?

I really have no clue how big a thing this is. It's not something I've heard of in my actual life so don't know if it's a big thing, or only known among a few?

[It'sFunToRun]

Does anyone have any idea how common the courtship thing is? Are we talking hundreds of families? Thousands? A million?

I really have no clue how big a thing this is. It's not something I've heard of in my actual life so don't know if it's a big thing, or only known among a few?

Can't answer your question, but a lot (maybe most?) of modern Orthodox Jews do something called marriage-minded dating, which is like dating except you only do it if both parties are looking for someone to marry. So for instance, if you want to get a B.A. degree before you marry, then you wouldn't date until after you finish your degree. Also you don't date someone for fun if you don't think it's plausible that you'll marry them, even if you enjoy going on dates.

Ultra-Orthodox Jews use something called "shiduchim" which is matchmaking. Neither the boy nor the girl has the power to ask the other out, instead a matchmaker has to suggest the match, and both of them agree to it (after seeing each other's shidduch resume and calling references). The more liberal ones would be allowed to go on a date without an official chaperone; they can't be alone together, but they could be at a busy restaurant or the park where no one who knows them is listening in on their conversation. The most conservative ones have their meeting in the girl's living room with her parents listening in, and then are expected to decide whether or not to marry within one to three such meetings.

[It'sFunToRun]

Can't answer your question, but a lot (maybe most?) of modern Orthodox Jews do something called marriage-minded dating, which is like dating except you only do it if both parties are looking for someone to marry. So for instance, if you want to get a B.A. degree before you marry, then you wouldn't date until after you finish your degree. Also you don't date someone for fun if you don't think it's plausible that you'll marry them, even if you enjoy going on dates.

Ultra-Orthodox Jews use something called "shiduchim" which is matchmaking. Neither the boy nor the girl has the power to ask the other out, instead a matchmaker has to suggest the match, and both of them agree to it (after seeing each other's shidduch resume and calling references). The more liberal ones would be allowed to go on a date without an official chaperone; they can't be alone together, but they could be at a busy restaurant or the park where no one who knows them is listening in on their conversation. The most conservative ones have their meeting in the girl's living room with her parents listening in, and then are expected to decide whether or not to marry within one to three such meetings.

This blog comes from the most liberal end of Ultra-Orthodox Judaism and is really good! I followed it until she got engaged and ended it. The blog is badforshidduchim at wordpress.com.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Can't answer your question, but a lot (maybe most?) of modern Orthodox Jews do something called marriage-minded dating, which is like dating except you only do it if both parties are looking for someone to marry. So for instance, if you want to get a B.A. degree before you marry, then you wouldn't date until after you finish your degree. Also you don't date someone for fun if you don't think it's plausible that you'll marry them, even if you enjoy going on dates.

Ultra-Orthodox Jews use something called "shiduchim" which is matchmaking. Neither the boy nor the girl has the power to ask the other out, instead a matchmaker has to suggest the match, and both of them agree to it (after seeing each other's shidduch resume and calling references). The more liberal ones would be allowed to go on a date without an official chaperone; they can't be alone together, but they could be at a busy restaurant or the park where no one who knows them is listening in on their conversation. The most conservative ones have their meeting in the girl's living room with her parents listening in, and then are expected to decide whether or not to marry within one to three such meetings.

I didn't do this, but know people who have.

This article was a bit confusing for me, because in my mind I had always pictured that courtship was just the english/Christian equivalent of Orthodox Jewish matchmaking and "shidduchim", and now realize that it clearly is not.

Jewish culture has a tradition of matchmaking. Just watch Fiddler on the Roof. Sometimes formal matchmakers were involved, sometimes parents were simply on the lookout for their kids and got into conversations with other parents. I know my dad's grandparents had an arranged marriage. In the more liberal circles, dating became more common and matchmakers were just used for someone who needed some extra help meeting someone. You also had a big community focus on singles events and providing opportunities for people to meet. Today, if you are a Jewish single, even if you aren't particularly religious, you go on JDate.com, or someone sets you up, or you meet through camp/school/various organizations.

In the more traditional circles, things moved in the opposite direction. Some organizations will do some mixed programming, but many activities are single-gender only so you don't get as many natural opportunities for people to meet. I know some couples who meet while socializing in groups, but then made the decision to date "for marriage purposes". In this crowd, there's little to no touching before marriage. The purpose of the dates is to see if you get along well with the other person and want to marry them. Once the decision is made, they get engaged. In stricter groups that don't have much mixed gender group socializing, matchmakers and/or online dating sites for the community are used. There's a certain amount of screening of candidates, which varies from one community to another. In some communities, it's common to go on many dates until you find the right person. In others, there is such an intense pre-screening process that by the time the couple actually meet, it's really just to make sure that they don't run screaming.

The idea of having strict courtship rules but NOT actively trying to find someone for your kids seems a bit weird to me.