The Rules of Courtship

[actuallyjessica]

We know it varies from family to family, but I was just wondering just how much it varies.

Physical aspect:

The Duggars only allow a short side-hug during courtship, and only allow upgrading to handholding while engaged.

The Bates are a little more lenient - Alyssa and John were hugging throughout their courtship, as they were holding hands.

Accountability:

Who is allowed private phone calls/texts?

All dates/meetings are chaperoned.

Basically I'm just wondering if there are any fundies out there who are exceptions to these rules.

[ljohnson2006]

I thought the couple was allowed to choose what they wanted to do. Smuggar and Anna had many handsex sessions during their courtship and engagement. It was so unnecessary.

[actuallyjessica]

I thought the couple was allowed to choose what they wanted to do. Smuggar and Anna had many handsex sessions during their courtship and engagement. It was so unnecessary.

The Bates' are able to choose, yes. But with the Duggars - it doesn't seem like it. After BenBob asked Jessa to begin courting, Boob generously allowed them to 'side hug'.

[itsnotmeitsu]

I thought they could hold hands after they got engaged. Anna's dad set the rules.

[Letgo]

Courtship does vary wildly from family to family. Some couples barely know each other before the wedding and have spent very little time together. Others take more time but since everything is chaperoned, how can they really get to know each other? There are lots of conversations I wouldn't want to have with a parent or sibling hanging on every word. From what I have read on the blogs, some of these couples mainly know the beliefs of the other person. They (or Dad, really) decide(s) this is God's will and the two "purpose" to be happy married to each other. Because love is a decision, you know. No feelings involved, no attraction. Just decide. Some of them really caution against having feelings. I love you is not said before at least engagement, if not marriage. Don't get emotionally involved! Don't give away pieces of your heart! Oops! All of the courting/engaged/married Duggars and Bateses have clearly given their hearts before the wedding ceremony. At least these two families allow the couples to really like each other.

And my favorite part of the courtship process...supposedly the couples set their own rules for courtship. I find it odd that every last one of them just happens to choose rules that please the parents.

Most of the couples I have known who courted saved the first kiss for the wedding. They were chaperoned, but were allowed to have hand sex. And lots of it. They may have even been able to hug normally, but I am not sure about that. All were home schooled and none attended college. The courtship to wedding process lasted several months-always less than a year.

I know a very few families who were a little more lenient and took more time-and had more apparent trust in the couples. These were generally families who had children who attended Christian schools, and in a couple of cases, even public school. The kids were expected to go to college, and did. These couples courted for much longer as there were other factors to consider, such as finishing college, grad school, or completing a military assignment. They also married later since they all at least graduated from college first. Limited kissing was sometimes allowed, as in ONE kiss on the day of engagement, or one on the yearly anniversaries of courtship or engagement. The couples were not chaperoned but were expected not to be alone together. They could be alone shopping at the mall, driving in a car, or participating in some public activity (golf, jogging, bowling etc.), but not alone in a house or dorm room. They could attend movies in a theater, or watch TV or a movie at home together as long as other people were present. Any completely alone time was supposed to be in a public place. The kids pretty much believed in this so they cooperated. It was on the honor system, though, so they could easily have violated the rules. But the ones I have known were devout Christians and very invested in remaining physically pure before marriage.

[Coco]

The Bates' are able to choose, yes. But with the Duggars - it doesn't seem like it. After BenBob asked Jessa to begin courting, Boob generously allowed them to 'side hug'.

That was painfully awkward. Then Michelle squishing in the truck. Jessa's face was just like, good grief, Mom.

During that episode I kept thinking, Trust your child enough to back off and give her space! If the couple doesn't believe in purity voluntarily, all the smothering won't keep them from crossing the line at the first chance.

[Coco]

Courtship does vary wildly from family to family. Some couples barely know each other before the wedding and have spent very little time together. Others take more time but since everything is chaperoned, how can they really get to know each other? There are lots of conversations I wouldn't want to have with a parent or sibling hanging on every word. From what I have read on the blogs, some of these couples mainly know the beliefs of the other person. They (or Dad, really) decide(s) this is God's will and the two "purpose" to be happy married to each other. Because love is a decision, you know. No feelings involved, no attraction. Just decide. Some of them really caution against having feelings. I love you is not said before at least engagement, if not marriage. Don't get emotionally involved! Don't give away pieces of your heart! Oops! All of the courting/engaged/married Duggars and Bateses have clearly given their hearts before the wedding ceremony. At least these two families allow the couples to really like each other.

In my conservative church growing up the couples had to always have at least a Bible-width between them (more than a slimline) :lol: And the personal conversations were sitting together in a room with others but talking low enough that it was private. Most of the time they weren't allowed to drive anywhere without a third person along, but it could be a sibling.

One of the girls my age who courted did so almost entirely by letter without meeting the guy, and a few phone calls. It just seemed so old-fashioned. I'm sure she also had to let her dad read the letters. That seems so prone to problems. We read the written word in our own internal voice. It would be difficult to get to know a future life partner really well just through letters. Seems like there could be a ton of misunderstandings.

[tralala]

I noticed in the last episode there are some slight differences in how the duggars all approach their "rules". Josh and Anna were textboook side hugs, but they went at it with the handsex.

Jill and Derrick sometimes let their emotions get the best of them with the hand holding and the front hug. But even in less emotionally charged instances Jill will do a side hug and then wrap her arm around him like she's holding on for dear life. Which seems to be their hand holding style as well.

Ben and Jessa do this weird thing with their foreheads when they great each other. Like they go in for a side hug and then nuzzle their foreheads to replace a kiss. It comes in long and short form too.

They all adhere to the rules, but its clear they all bend them too because they're humans and want to show physical affection.

Basically I kept wanting to do this to both couples during the last episode.

[Laurabelle]

My one fundie friend courted her eventual husband did hand holding and modest hugs (modest hugs? I guess that’s right—not quite a side hug, but definitely not a normal hug with things *touching*), but I think only after they were engaged. However, her husband lived in Alaska and she lived in the south, so they didn’t see each other super often, unless one visited the other, so I’m going from what she told me.

That goes with what I’ve heard about fundie courting here, I think. Not much touching if any until engagement, first kiss during wedding. My friend and her husband had their first kiss on their wedding day, and I remember that was made a big deal of (the ceremony was also 2 hours long at least, and I remember sitting there thinking, wow, they must really just want to get the minister (his dad) to shut up so they can get it on!). :shifty:

Of course, if you’re Kristina, you’ve got to make sure you have your 6-inch ruler AT!!! ALL!!!! TIMES!!! :penguin-no:

[Jana814]

I do notice the difference w/ the families & courtships. Where the Duggar kids were allowed hand holding & side hugs. The Maxwell's don't allow anything. Kristina & the 6 inch was just weird.

[Laurabelle]

I do notice the difference w/ the families & courtships. Where the Duggar kids were allowed hand holding & side hugs. The Maxwell's don't allow anything. Kristina & the 6 inch was just weird.

That's true. I think the courtship rules sound pretty similar (with some variety of course), until you factor in Kristina and the Maxwells. :doh:

[usmcmom]

Our kids went to the same church camp that my husband attended each summer as a kid. Well, our son only went a couple summers because it wasn't his thing. Our daughter went for ten years and even returned as a counselor a couple times. Their "warning" any time a boy and girl were wandering off together was always "Leave room for Jesus!!!" :lol: :lol: I used to jokingly say that to my daughter when she'd leave the house with her boyfriend. You know...to be alone. In a dark car. :o :o :o

[nelliebelle1197]

I do notice the difference w/ the families & courtships. Where the Duggar kids were allowed hand holding & side hugs. The Maxwell's don't allow anything. Kristina & the 6 inch was just weird.

OMG, you just gave me a naughty thought......

[usmcmom]

OMG, you just gave me a naughty thought......

Well, now I have the same thought. :shock:

Prayer closet??

[Toothfairy]

Fundie Courtship & dating same thing. The couples are suppose to set their own rules, but not in fundie land. You can't suppress feelings because they're feelings. People are going to have crushes and fall in love even if they have chaperones and are taught its bad.

For regular courtships the couple themselves make a stand not to engage in physical contact. The Christian dating couple must have boundaries in place and be committed to not crossing them. If they find this hard to do, they must take steps to ensure that Christ will always be honored during their time together and that sin is never given a chance to take hold of their relationship. I do think parents being involved is excessive. The couple should be alone in a public setting to get to really know each other.

[usmcmom]

Fundie Courtship & dating same thing. The couples are suppose to set their own rules, but not in fundie land. You can't suppress feelings because they're feelings. People are going to have crushes and fall in love even if they have chaperones and are taught its bad.

For regular courtships the couple themselves make a stand not to engage in physical contact. The Christian dating couple must have boundaries in place and be committed to not crossing them. If they find this hard to do, they must take steps to ensure that Christ will always be honored during their time together and that sin is never given a chance to take hold of their relationship. I do think parents being involved is excessive. The couple should be alone in a public setting to get to really know each other.

We had certain guidelines in place when our kids were dating in high school. We didn't leave them alone in the house with their date; their boyfriend/girlfriend could not be in their bedroom (especially with the door closed); no car dates until 16. After our daughter left for college and her boyfriend left for the SAME college, we no longer have those rules in place. We figure: 1) if they're going to have sex, they've found a way to do that by now and 2) It's none of our business anymore. Our values can't be her values and she is an adult. I've always just encouraged her to be open with me so that I can help her be safe and smart. We trust the values we've imparted to our kids. I never have figured out why fundies don't have more confidence in their teachings.

[FloraKitty35]

Well, now I have the same thought. :shock:

Prayer closet??

Save room in the prayer closet for me too.

[Coco]

We had certain guidelines in place when our kids were dating in high school. We didn't leave them alone in the house with their date; their boyfriend/girlfriend could not be in their bedroom (especially with the door closed); no car dates until 16. After our daughter left for college and her boyfriend left for the SAME college, we no longer have those rules in place. We figure: 1) if they're going to have sex, they've found a way to do that by now and 2) It's none of our business anymore. Our values can't be her values and she is an adult. I've always just encouraged her to be open with me so that I can help her be safe and smart. We trust the values we've imparted to our kids. I never have figured out why fundies don't have more confidence in their teachings.

You're a good mom :) I hope i can let go and allow my kids grow up, when the time comes, like you have with yours.

re the bolded: Fundies live by absolute rules. Ultra-conservatives are great at abstinence and terrible at moderation. The fundie friends i've known have very little discernment when it comes to making their own boundaries, since boundaries have always been set by their authority. They never had to establish an internal stopping place based on their own convictions. So the parents have confidence in their teachings as long as someone is keeping a tight rein on accountability, which is really just sad. In a perfect world the kids would be convinced of the merit of their beliefs, instead of living in fear of punishment for going against something they haven't internalized.

[16strong]

Save room in the prayer closet for me too.

Is it just me, or is it getting a bit crowded in here? And who just farted?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

OMG, you just gave me a naughty thought......

Haha the first person who posted about the 6 inch ruler got me.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Is it just me, or is it getting a bit crowded in here? And who just farted?

She who smelled it dealt it.

[Coconut Flan]

I'm building the extension to the prayer closet as fast as I can. It sounds like we need a redesign on the ventilation system already.

[bumblebee]

It also seems like the rules have changed slightly as the Duggars and Bates grew older and the reality of trying to get them married off set in (see Zach and Sarah).

Looking around the blogs there are/were a lot of families with unmarried SAHD approaching their 30s waiting for Prince Charming to float down from Heaven as a gift from God, and ended up only proving that approach was to have a mini generation of daughters who showed how much that approach sucked, rather than being a viable alternative to *horror* dating.

They tried to go for a weird mishmash between “Victorian†courtship and societies where arranged marriage was/still is common but without any of the familial, social or societal structures those societies had in place to actually make it work.

Now it seems the slightly younger crowd of a lot of prominent families are basically dating but being “chaste†about it. Which is an option a lot people choose in mainstream society without making a big deal about how much better they are.

And as has been noted a lot on this site, its amazing how *modest* tops got so much tighter and attractive once the TV cameras showed how weird a house full of adult daughters in frumpers would look.

Then of course you still get the Maxwells who's attempt to arrange a marriage after meeting twice backfired so spectacularly, but Nathan and Melanie were allowed a "getting to know you in fellowship" couple of months before courting. There are still those who advocate the "betrothal option" where the bride and groom seem to get legally married ASAP after meeting and only have the religious ceremony after that (just so no one can possibly back out).

The high profile Bates and Duggar courtships seem to have taken some pressure off the "does courting actually work??" debate that was starting to happen online though.

[nelliebelle1197]

It also seems like the rules have changed slightly as the Duggars and Bates grew older and the reality of trying to get them married off set in (see Zach and Sarah).

Looking around the blogs there are/were a lot of families with unmarried SAHD approaching their 30s waiting for Prince Charming to float down from Heaven as a gift from God, and ended up only proving that approach was to have a mini generation of daughters who showed how much that approach sucked, rather than being a viable alternative to *horror* dating.

They tried to go for a weird mishmash between “Victorian†courtship and societies where arranged marriage was/still is common but without any of the familial, social or societal structures those societies had in place to actually make it work.

Now it seems the slightly younger crowd of a lot of prominent families are basically dating but being “chaste†about it. Which is an option a lot people choose in mainstream society without making a big deal about how much better they are.

And as has been noted a lot on this site, its amazing how *modest* tops got so much tighter and attractive once the TV cameras showed how weird a house full of adult daughters in frumpers would look.

Then of course you still get the Maxwells who's attempt to arrange a marriage after meeting twice backfired so spectacularly, but Nathan and Melanie were allowed a "getting to know you in fellowship" couple of months before courting. There are still those who advocate the "betrothal option" where the bride and groom seem to get legally married ASAP after meeting and only have the religious ceremony after that (just so no one can possibly back out).

The high profile Bates and Duggar courtships seem to have taken some pressure off the "does courting actually work??" debate that was starting to happen online though.

And don't forget those who don't get married at all- Seppis, Pearls- but live in Jesus-approved, government-free sin because Jesus does not want them to maximize their tax deductions.

[Coco]

And don't forget those who don't get married at all- Seppis, Pearls- but live in Jesus-approved, government-free sin because Jesus does not want them to maximize their tax deductions.

The Seppis are a lot like my background. I just felt so sad for them after looking at their web page a while. Extreme fear of government and just about everything else; worrying that anything enjoyable can be sinful; just leads to feeling a vague guilt all the time. They're so scared of being part of the system but they just don't realize the system is there to help make life easier. Their weirdness is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy that draws attention. lol So glad I'm not still trapped in that lifestyle! Not everything has to be spiritual! :dance: