Pregnant women in Texas and 11 states lose rights to DNR

[BravaAmica]

How long have they known the fetus was non-viable?

[Chowder Head]

Thank goodness this woman and her family can finally find peace.

[notsocommon]

At the hearing, an attorney for the facility admitted that the fetus is non-viable.

...but.....but doctors are wrong all the time!!! my third cousin's neighbor's friend was told her baby was 'non viable' and he is a healthy three year old! That must mean that all doctors, everywhere, are always wrong about viability!

Why, yes, I did JUST have this very discussion! :angry-banghead:

[Lillybee]

This is Operation Rescue's take on this story.

operationrescue.org/archives/pro-life-leaders-to-stand-vigil-in-support-of-marlise-munoz-and-her-baby-amid-efforts-to-withdraw-life-support/

[notsocommon]

Since when is brain death not considered death?

Read the comments, one moron thinks that the brain death could be wrong and mom, and baby, can fully recover! :pink-shock:

Seriously, what is up with delusional people thinking this baby is going to be perfectly healthy?

[Lillybee]

I remember when I studied ethics at a very Catholic university. we went through end of life issues. What was required was ordinary standards of car not extraordinary. I think that having a dead woman on a respirator is extraordinary.

[artdecades]

Ugh at that article. "to give her pre born baby a chance at life" the fetus is severely deformed, lacked oxygen when the woman went braindead, and is not viable. There is no chance at life. This is the corpse of a wife and mother whose family deserves to be able to bury her. I also hate the use of "in support" of her. She didn't want to be on life support. Supporting her, as a human being, would be to respect her wishes.

I hope that the hospital does not appeal because of the cost to them. Unless they have some crazy anti-choice agenda, which they may have. If they do appeal, and the medical bills increase, I hope that the Munoz family takes them for all they are worth.

[Lillybee]

I don't think that the hospital will appeal but that the county DA may and if he doesn't there is always Operation Rescue (they have done similar things before).

[salex]

On Anderson Cooper a couple of nights ago his guests was discussing this case. I honestly don't know who any of them were, because I generally don't watch these kinds of shows. The premise was Cooper and another man were saying "Her parents and husband know she would not want to be on the machine. The fetus is horribly disfigured and was without oxygen for up to an hour, what is the point of doing this. And the two women were saying "well, did she ever say specifically she would not want the machines if she were pregnant, because that is a whole other thing... any woman would want the machines for their baby." And then a bit of ping pong about non viable baby and this will be a right to life case and the women saying "oh no, it will never be a right to life case, it is just how much women change when they are pregnant...." All of which told me 2 things. I am right not to watch these kind of shows and the "debates" are as staged as a fight at a real house wives' dinner party.

Of course it is going to be a right to life issue. How else would operation rescue ever get a bit of funding if they didn't occasionally get out and protest against things that are lost causes that are none of their business?

[Childless]

I don't think the hospital will appeal. It seems to me their main concern was following the law and not being prosecuted. If they have the decision of the judge absolving them of that possibility, I think they'll be more than happy to wash their hands of this situation. Especially since they have to know they aren't going to be reimbursed for the cost of keeping her on the machines. They can try to get money from the husband, but its not going to happen. He's either going to sue, or declare bankruptcy and his insurance certainly isn't going to pay since the woman is no longer alive. I'm sure the hospital doesn't want to throw away more money if they have an out.

[salex]

I don't think the hospital will appeal. It seems to me their main concern was following the law and not being prosecuted. If they have the decision of the judge absolving them of that possibility, I think they'll be more than happy to wash their hands of this situation. Especially since they have to know they aren't going to be reimbursed for the cost of keeping her on the machines. They can try to get money from the husband, but its not going to happen. He's either going to sue, or declare bankruptcy and his insurance certainly isn't going to pay since the woman is no longer alive. I'm sure the hospital doesn't want to throw away more money if they have an out.

I'm wondering if hospital management will figure that is a low price for getting the law re-examined. I can't imagine most hospitals --including this one, which appears to be a county/tax funded hospital-- support the law that forces a particular medical action in a one size fits all. This may have been a case of testing the law-- and now there is precedent for future cases. And, it may well be the law is vague enough that the hospital did in fact feel they had no choice.

[Becket70]

While I can understand the reasoning behind the pro-life philosophy ( I don't agree with it but I do understand it), they would get a lot further achieving their goals if they were not absolutist. They will never end all abortion....never. Supporting extremes like this case in Texas adds to the perception that they are fanatics. Laws they support have consequences, such as this case. They want to criminalize abortion throughout the nation and one of the consequences will be serious prison time for women who seek abortion and the physician or other person who provides the service. We don't have enough prisons now. What happens when women and those who participated in her obtaining an illegal abortion (which could also include her spouse or partner or parent) start serving time for murder? What happens to their families? They never address this particular issue. Absolutist=fanaticism.

[Koala]

I posted an article about the judge's decision on my fb. As we speak I have a woman on there arguing that she would "haunt her husband's ass" if he "killed their baby just so he could take her off life support in a timely manner" :pull-hair:

[Cleopatra7]

One of the drafters of the "keep pregnant women on life support" bill said that cases like this were not what the law was supposed to be used for? This begs the question of which scenarios was this law supposed to be used for? Does Texas do ultrasounds for all gravely injured women between twelve and forty-five? Or was this just supposed to be some useless piece of legislation to show how much Texas cares for the unborn?

[16strong]

This whole situation is like something out of a Mary Shelley novel. "Let's see how long can we grow a fetus in a dead body!!11!1" It's creepy, disturbing, and...wrong. Just wrong. The husband has said that his wife doesn't even have her own smell anymore. She just smells dead. On top of that, he can't hold her hand because it is so decayed that it cracks and pops. And how can a baby possibly develop normally in a dead body from 14 weeks? It can't. It may have been different if the baby were, say, 28 weeks, but not 14. This hospital has a serious lack of morals and basic decency. I'd be terrified to send one of my loved ones there.

[halfheartedheroine]

This whole situation is like something out of a Mary Shelley novel. "Let's see how long can we grow a fetus in a dead body!!11!1" It's creepy, disturbing, and...wrong. Just wrong. The husband has said that his wife doesn't even have her own smell anymore. She just smells dead. On top of that, he can't hold her hand because it is so decayed that it cracks and pops. And how can a baby possibly develop normally in a dead body from 14 weeks? It can't. It may have been different if the baby were, say, 28 weeks, but not 14. This hospital has a serious lack of morals and basic decency. I'd be terrified to send one of my loved ones there.

I'm guessing that would be one of the main reasons that the hospital wouldn't appeal the decision. Avoid the negative publicity of being perceived as "doggedly keeping a brain-dead patient on machines while fighting legal battles against family's wishes"... Particularly in a city (Fort Worth) that has multiple hospitals that patients can hypothetically "choose" from. (i.e. I have a preference for Hospital I've Been Seen At Before rather than Other Hospital in my city, and they're close enough together that I could feasibly insist on one or the other. Not so much in a rural area where it's the difference between 15 minutes away and an hour away)

[SpeakNow]

One of the drafters of the "keep pregnant women on life support" bill said that cases like this were not what the law was supposed to be used for? This begs the question of which scenarios was this law supposed to be used for? Does Texas do ultrasounds for all gravely injured women between twelve and forty-five? Or was this just supposed to be some useless piece of legislation to show how much Texas cares for the unborn?

Maybe it was meant to keep viable babies from being aborted? To me anyway, that would make slightly more sense. It still wouldn't be right, but I could at least see the logic there.

[Childless]

I posted an article about the judge's decision on my fb. As we speak I have a woman on there arguing that she would "haunt her husband's ass" if he "killed their baby just so he could take her off life support in a timely manner" :pull-hair:

Well, in that case, her husband would know her wishes and honor them. That's exactly what this man is doing for his wife. Trying to honor her wishes. I love how people think everyone should follow what they think end of life decisions should be. Who died and made her god?

[Lillybee]

It is over. The hospital turned off her vent today.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/health/fort-wo ... 83601.html

[Hane]

It is over. The hospital turned off her vent today.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/health/fort-wo ... 83601.html

May she rest in peace, and may comfort come to her husband, her parents, and all her family and friends.

[Stephanie66]

I just read the ventilator was taken off. Hopefully, now the law is clear and this will not happen again.

[sparkles]

This should never have happened. I hope her family can find peace and that those who brought this about are forever haunted by nightmares.

[BravaAmica]

Does anyone know when the hospital realized that the fetus was not viable? I know they admitted that the woman's corpse was brain dead and that the fetus was not viable AFTER the family made the conditions public. But *when* did they realize it? Did they know that all along?

[Aggie2145]

Maybe it was meant to keep viable babies from being aborted? To me anyway, that would make slightly more sense. It still wouldn't be right, but I could at least see the logic there.

I have read the committee reports presented when this law was a bill. It was drafted to protect a viable fetus (24 weeks+) so that it could either 1) be delivered prior to removing life sustaining measures or 2) complete any rounds of medication that would increase it's chance at life and then be delivered. This was not a law drafted to require brain dead women to incubate 14 week old babies nor does it require pregnancy tests on all women prior to turning off a ventilator. The law was supposed to give hospitals certainty in going against a family's wishes in very limited circumstances, however as written it is so broadly sweeping that it was applied far beyond the legislative intent.

[Becket70]

Now the conspiracy theories will begin. Operation Rescue or a similar organization will say they took the mother off life-support now because they didn't want the world to know the baby was fine or just minimally disabled. They will blame the father, liberals, the judge, etc. You know it's coming. Look for the strange comments emanating from Operation Rescue tomorrow.