"Holy Hip-Hop" kerfuffle on NCFIC's FB page

[Marian the Librarian]

Well, mercy. It appears the august panelists at Scotty's recent "Worship of God" conference have offended some of the faithful. Per the National Center for Family Integrated Churches Facebook page (facebook.com/NCFIC):

At the recent Worship of God conference, attendees were encouraged to prepare questions for the concluding time of Q&A. One of the questions we received was: “Any thoughts on reformed rap artists? … Their musical styles would be considered offensive to some, but the doctrine within the songs is sound.†Panelists Dan Horn, Scott Aniol, Geoff Botkin, Joel Beeke, Jason Dohm, and Joe Morecraft weigh in.

And apparently, they all weighed in quite heavily, calling poetry to a beat "devil music," and Christian rappers "disobedient cowards." There is a video, for those who can stand it. (Fair warning - Geoff Botkin looks downright scary.)

You're pissing off your sheeple, Scotty! Some of my favorite comments:

It saddens me that people can be so narrow minded and closed off to a form of music that daily brings in more young people to the church and to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ than any of these old white guys on the panel could even fathom. Christian rap connects on a level with a certain audience that no one else can. Christian rap IS not conforming, it is transforming. And it's a painful reminder of how much like the Pharisee's much of the church has become. I think Lecrae, tobyMac, Kirk Franklin, The Ambassador, etc would love to discuss this topic with you, along with all the people blessed by the music they produce and/or endorse. I supposed you believe you must always be dressed up to go to church/receive the gospel message as well? What's to say that dressing in nice clothes is not drawing attention to yourself as you say rappers draw attention to themselves? Seems to me some soul searching needs to be done on this panel.

This is disturbing. Please publicly apologize for and recant calling Christians rappers "disobedient cowards."

I am ashamed of these brothers in Christ. SHOW ME YOUR INNER CITY MINISTRY. SHOW ME. Tell me Lecrae & 116 aren't doing amazing things for the kingdom, especially in the inner city--and around the world. I SEE PHARISEES. Righteous anger flows through my veins right now.

Dan Horn, Scott Aniol, Geoff Botkin, Joel Beeke, Jason Dohm, and Joe Morecraft you are very disappointing! Terrible message! You need to review your statements...

I think that guy number 3 [botkin] was pretty ignorant.

[Mary C Doates]

Yeah, hip hop is "the death rattle in the throat of society" (or was it civilization? Don't make me go back and listen to those windbags again).

Tools!

[Soulhuntress]

Why does the word racist seem to float around this discussion? Everyone not named Joel Beeke (he has an excuse: his denomination and upbringing is a bit......different and he is trying) needs to be on their knees praying for forgiveness. How Dare They Insult My Jesus like that? How Dare They? Shai Lynne is fantastic and he calls it as he sees it. :penguin-no:

[RosyDaisy]

Damn, it looks like not only are VF sheeple throwing Doug the Tool under the bus, they are turning on each other. It's like some kind holy infighting going on. Now if only the same thing would happen to Gothard/IBLP/ATI.

[Cleopatra7]

The idea that music with a strong beat is evil or "jungle music" goes back to the days of ragtime and early jazz, and definately has racial overtones. As with many things, these guys proclaim what they like to be "godly" and what they dislike to be "evil."

[DomWackTroll]

Thanks for letting us know, Marian! Off to cackle gleefully...

[hoipolloi]

Thanks for letting us know, Marian! Off to cackle gleefully...

More on NCFIC's FB page: https://www.facebook.com/NCFIC

Check out Recent Posts By Others.

[Dysfundamental]

Reverend Run has more spirituality in his little finger than all these tweedledums put together.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Voddie Baucham has a post on this too, with some good comments

facebook.com/VoddieBaucham/posts/10151940693742550

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Also saw this

patheos.com/blogs/thoughtlife/2013/11/did-an-ncfic-panel-really-say-that-reformed-rappers-are-disobedient-cowards/

[artdecades]

Man, I am watching the video and they are trying so hard to say racist things without overtly saying them. "The cultural milieu out of which it grew...what it was intended to express by those who created the artform". Seriously. I don't know who this blonde guy is, but he is basically saying that it comes from black people, its bad.

Edit: the second to last guy is pretty ageist too.

[FloraKitty35]

Damn, there went my dream of the Botkinettes hooking up with a rapper.

[DomWackTroll]

Damn, there went my dream of the Botkinettes hooking up with a rapper.

I feel a rap coming on-- old school!

I need a spinsta bitch

(A spinsta bitch)

I want a spinsta bitch, yo

(A spinsta bitch)

I wanna spinsta boogie with my

(Spinsta bitch)

I need a, I want a

(Spinsta bitch, spinsta bitch)

Yo, I need a spinsta bitch

She don't work and she don't play

Guiltin' up girls from around the VF way

Strapped but lovable, hateful but huggable

Never in trouble and definitely Doug-able...

And when we court she makes me scream out her name

She's not petty, biblical, ready

Like the brave knights, we play fight with machetes

This goes out to all the spinsta hoe pros

Give me a Forum girl, court a closet 'mo

Sad to say one day got caught with Doug

I shed tears at our last side hug

She's gone now so it's time to make my switch

So who'll be my next spinsta bitch?

[JesusFightClub]

I like rap :)

The first guy had an OK (and non-racist) point. Rap is, to an extent, about showing off the rapper's skills. You can say from that that this could be a problem for the listener in taking the focus away from the lyrics to the person, thereby encouraging man-worship. It's something which could be fairly discussed.

The second guy is dressing up racism in fancy talk about "cultural milieus" which Certain People come from. In order to be Christians, Certain People have to put away all that Certain People nonsense (like rap and hip-hop) and be more like...dare I say it? I will....White People. This makes absolutely no sense in the light of Scripture but it does if you're a racist.

#3 is Da Botkin and as usual he's talking utter wank. You can't conflate "the world" with one musical genre. The Reformed rappers he's talking about aren't being disobedient (where does it say in the Bible that only piano music written by white people is OK?) and they aren't being cowards by not embracing tinkly piano nonsense - there's no Scriptural mandate for one kind of music or one kind of praise or one way only of preaching doctrine. In fact, if we go by the Bible, Botkin should be prancing around in a loincloth clashing cymbals.

#4 "If MY children, with THEIR upbringing, listened to this..." it would be sheer horror. SHEER HORROR LET ME TELL YOU. Apparently, it's ok for negroes who might listen while they are still heathen and become interested (let's stop with all this "people from a certain culture" crap, we all know what he means) but once he's "discipled" them a bit, they will stop listening to rap and it'll all be fine. Unfortunately, they won't become white in THIS life, but we can all hope for the next, haymen?

#5 What the fuck? I don't know who tobymac is (I quite like what I've heard of Shai Linne but that's as far as I go). Apparently, whoever he is, he got old and wrinkly, and this proves that old people shouldn't like rap. What this has to do with Christianity, I know not.

#6 Young men in his church are wearing earrings (is this the 70s or something?) and he says that they're identifying themselves with a dying culture (the World) as opposed to godly Church elders. This is daft because where does it stop? If they aren't dressed in a business suit 24/7 are they identifying themselves with socialism? If the elders at his church are balding and so shave their heads, are they identifying themselves with skinhead culture? If a man wears a pink shirt is he identifying himself with homosexuality? How and when was the ideal "Christian look" developed, and has it never changed over time?

He also has the utterly stupid idea that rap is a "death rattle of culture". This can be a view that people have if they've listened to nothing but chart shite because that is fairly tedious, and when rap is bad, being as it requires a lot of skill, it is horrible indeed. Like if I tried to rap, the result would be diabolical in many ways.

But if you listen to rap in all its complexity, not just the chart nonsense, it's a musical form which allows great skill and dexterity in wordplay as well as some deep thinking lyrically which standard hymn form doesn't (because you're expected to sing along, it's not as easy to play around with words and lyrics). Fundies don't want to accept this because it would mean appreciating the skills and talents of people who to them are barely tolerable if they try to dress and act as much like fundie Christians as possible, and beyond the pale at all other times.

tl:dr This panel discussion was a load of fucking toss

[teachergirl]

well listen, this is coming from the guy ( Scotty boy) who thinks CHILDRENS bibles and nativity sets are idolatry.

would you expect anything less from his conference and the panel? it is hilarious what they get all worked up about and even sadder that people paid to listen to that racist drivel.

[Childless]

They had a panel on this? Really, an entire panel? Because there aren't bigger problems in the world like poverty, climate change, struggling economies, etc. Let's waste our time talking about music genres. What a bunch of idiots.

[Savoring Samsara]

JesusFightClub, that was a phenomenal post.

Toby Mac was one of the guys from DC Talk, a Christian rock/rap band that anyone who was young and evangelical in the 90s will remember. He is just about the whitest and least threatening (to racist people) rapper that you could possibly imagine. So yeah.

[formergothardite]

well listen, this is coming from the guy ( Scotty boy) who thinks CHILDRENS bibles and nativity sets are idolatry.

would you expect anything less from his conference and the panel? it is hilarious what they get all worked up about and even sadder that people paid to listen to that racist drivel.

When did nativity sets become bad?! :shock: Not even Gothard goes that far.

[uber frau]

Calvinists come from a long and proud heritage of iconoclasm. There are still plenty who believe that all visual depictions of God (and therefore Jesus) are contrary to the commandment about not making graven images. I think a lot of it is actually rooted in not wanting to be like the Catholics and they just try and find some 'biblical' justification.

The distrust of children's bibles has two elements. Firstly, the 'idolatry' aspect; apparently pictures that depict Jesus also fall under the commandment about graven images. Secondly, they hold to the idea of "Sola Scriptura". In other words, scripture is holy and inspired and to dumb it down to a child's level, or to emphasise certain parts of of story to make a point (Oh, the irony) is to twist and contaminate the Holy Word of God. Many believe that God inspired the exact words in the exact order in the original text, and that it is paramount to preserve something as close to the original as possible. That's one of the reasons that most orthodox and fundy Calvinists prefer the Word-for-Word translations to the concept-for-concept translations, and one of the reasons why it's so important for them that their qualified Pastors are able to read the original Hebrew and Greek texts.

[DomWackTroll]

When did nativity sets become bad?! :shock: Not even Gothard goes that far.

Nativity Baby Jesus is cute and soft. Everyone knows that in real life, Jesus was a bad-ass who went on Hazardous Journeys and impregnated his wife many times over. He wasn't some little wuss in a manger!

[Joan of Snarc]

Damn straight. Don't forget he had a closet full of assault rifles too, because FREEDOM.

[Peas n carrots]

I wish videos could be put through the Snoop Dogg schizzlenator :cry:

[MamaJunebug]

In fact, if we go by the Bible, Botkin should be prancing around in a loincloth clashing cymbals.

Oh, JFC, I *so* hope he doesn't read this!

...she definitely Doug-able

DWT .... where do I begin?

Rap makes me sleepy. Srsly. It's like the rhythm's a heartbeat, and ....yawn, just thinking about it....erm......

[hoipolloi]

Oh, oh! :o

Revealing yourself to be the fucking asshole you actually are is BAAAAAAD for business the ministry!

Scotty has posted an update (scottbrownonline.com/what-about-holy-hip-hop/):

An Apology:

A few days ago I released a video clip from a panel discussion at our conference on The Worship of God (ncfic.org/worship) One of the panelists, Geoff Botkin, referred to the people driving Christian rap as “disobedient cowards.†I interpreted his statement to mean that, in every culture, Christians are often cowards in the face of various elements of their cultures that are infected with worldliness. Geoff has explained to me that he did not intend to impugn the work of sincere men, and that he would like to apologize for any confusion caused by his statement. Here is his apology:

“I need to apologize for the unintended offense and confusion of my comments on disobedient cowardice. I certainly do not believe that all of today’s Christian rappers are cowardly. My most sincere apologies go to anyone out there who was hurt by my strong language. While I do hold concerns about the use and misuse of rap, my words were not directed at any particular artist. My greater concern is for the broad cultural conformity and compromise that is not limited to reformed rap.†Geoff Botkin

We look forward to God glorifying dialogue with our brothers in Christ on the important matters of culture and the transforming power of the gospel.

[Hane]

When did nativity sets become bad?! :shock: Not even Gothard goes that far.

It could go back to hatred of the Ebil Catholics. The original manger sets were a teaching aid used by missionaries to pre-Christian Europeans centuries ago.