Wisconsin pregnant woman is locked up to save her fetus

[NotALoserLikeYou]

This is the most disturbing article I've read all year.

[Eater of Worlds]

Heck, a long term study on the crack babies from the 80s show that babies born addicted to crack have, generally speaking, the same health and intelligence of non-crack babies. What makes crack babies grow up with problems is severe poverty of their mother/parents. Wisconsin would still essentially jail a woman who smokes crack while pregnant instead of helping her stop the drugs and get out of poverty so she can successfully raise her kid.

[crazyforkate]

I feel like we're going to need the Underground Femaleroad (thanks, Atwood) pretty damn fast. This world just keeps getting scarier and scarier for women of reproductive age.

[JesusFightClub]

All you can do, ever, with women who drink and take illegal substances during their pregnancies is talk to them. Their bodies are always their bodies.

[NurseNell]

All you can do, ever, with women who drink and take illegal substances during their pregnancies is talk to them. Their bodies are always their bodies.

That doesn't make it any easier on those of us who take care of the babies after they are born addicted or with FAS. I've taken care of many children with fetal alcohol, it's a sin what their mothers have done to them. Children shouldn't have to pay for what their mothers choose to do in pregnancy. Criminalization isn't the answer but neither is ignoring it and doing nothing. I know if i were a bar tender I would personally refuse to serve pregnant woman.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Despite testing negative for drugs, she was forced into a 78 day rehab! She lost her job but is home now. I find this so upsetting. Of course when I posted on fb not one pro life person would comment on it, because then they would have to admit how much control they want to have over women.

nytimes.com/2013/10/24/us/case-explores-rights-of-fetus-versus-mother.html?_r=0

[lemonhead]

This is now the top story on http://www.nbcnews.com/.

Glad it's getting mainstream attention.

[2xx1xy1JD]

That NBC article made me even madder.

This is a woman who didn't have health insurance, and couldn't afford her prescription medication. Did anything think to ask if this was why she was weaning herself off of it?

Maybe, if the government really cares about protecting fetuses so much, they need to make sure that pregnant women have health care and can afford their meds.

If someone is still taking that painkiller at the time of birth, it can cause withdrawal in the newborn - but it is not generally associated with permanent brain damage. My close friend has a foster son with FAS, whose mother also used heroin and cocaine during the pregnancy. By far, the worst damage was caused by the alcohol. Babies can overcome withdrawal in the hospital with proper treatment and monitoring, but FAS results in permanent brain damage.

Any pregnant woman who hears about this story is going to stay away from health care providers if she has any issues with addiction in her medical history, which is about the worst thing for their future babies.

Was anyone concerned about the effects of stress on the pregnancy? See http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=51730 That's right - there's a decent chance that locking up this woman could have actually caused harm to the fetus.

What about the effects of the job loss on the family? How is that going to affect her ability to support the baby, get health insurance, etc.?

NurseNell - nobody here is saying that FAS is not serious, or that drinking in pregnancy is a wise choice. It can cause permanent brain damage, and one of the areas damaged is often the part responsible for impulse control, so people with FAS are far more likely to endanger themselves and/or get in trouble with the law.

While drinking during pregnancy is never a good idea, it is particularly dangerous in the embryonic stage, starting from 2 weeks in (ie. around the time that a woman may miss her period). Many women won't even realize that they are pregnant at that stage. A bartender refusing to serve one drink to a visibly pregnant woman does nothing to address this. You need to address substance abuse in all women of child-bearing age, and also do what you can to empower women to take control of their bodies and fertility so that more unintended pregnancies can be avoided and women can be counseled to prepare themselves for pregnancy. As well, aside from the fact that it is perfectly legal, alcoholics often consume at home. Do we say that women can't buy beer or wine at a store, or even cooking wine or mouth wash?

As I said as well, if you look at the actual research into things that cause harm during pregnancy, you'll also see an association between lack of folic acid and neural tube defects. In terms of lasting harm, hydrocephalus (water on the brain) or spina bifida is far more harmful than opioid withdrawal, but nobody is going to demonize a woman who failed to eat enough folic acid during the week that she missed her period the same that they may demonize an addicted pregnant woman. We learned that fortifying foods with folic acid was a more effective approach.

[Anny Nym]

So I´m quite interested in the further outcome of this case.

She was accused falsely and imprisoned upon this false accusion. will she get compensation as the damage done to her is pretty extreme (made loosing her job, imprisonment, forced to take unnecessary medication, harassment, reputational damage,...) ?

"savage persecution" is the only term I would describe with the horror this woman was forced to go through.

[JesusFightClub]

That doesn't make it any easier on those of us who take care of the babies after they are born addicted or with FAS. I've taken care of many children with fetal alcohol, it's a sin what their mothers have done to them. Children shouldn't have to pay for what their mothers choose to do in pregnancy. Criminalization isn't the answer but neither is ignoring it and doing nothing. I know if i were a bar tender I would personally refuse to serve pregnant woman.

If a woman has a glass of wine when she's pregnant that is nothing like the kind of epic drinking which gives a kid FAS. I've served women who were visibly pregnant alcohol and I would do the same again.

Children with FAS don't have it because their mums had a wee glass from a microbrewery (what I was serving them). They have it because their unfortunate mums were heavily addicted to alcohol during pregnancy. HEAVILY ADDICTED. This cannot be emphasised enough.

(I don't know if you have had many dealings with people who are heavily substance addicted. I have (including myself at one point). It is the most pitiful thing you can imagine. These are not people who enjoy and relish drugs and drinking because it's soooo much fun for them and who cares about baby amirite? But this is a separate issue)

Having a glass of wine or a pint of beer now and then during your pregnancy does not result in FAS. Being pissed from morning to night and being scared to face the world without a drink to hand during your pregnancy does. You know the difference.

[ShadowyOne]

If a woman has a glass of wine when she's pregnant that is nothing like the kind of epic drinking which gives a kid FAS. I've served women who were visibly pregnant alcohol and I would do the same again.

Children with FAS don't have it because their mums had a wee glass from a microbrewery (what I was serving them). They have it because their unfortunate mums were heavily addicted to alcohol during pregnancy. HEAVILY ADDICTED. This cannot be emphasised enough.

(I don't know if you have had many dealings with people who are heavily substance addicted. I have (including myself at one point). It is the most pitiful thing you can imagine. These are not people who enjoy and relish drugs and drinking because it's soooo much fun for them and who cares about baby amirite? But this is a separate issue)

Having a glass of wine or a pint of beer now and then during your pregnancy does not result in FAS. Being pissed from morning to night and being scared to face the world without a drink to hand during your pregnancy does. You know the difference.

Thank you. I found out that I was pregnant around Christmastime last year, and nobody would have ever refused to serve me because I looked pregnant had I decided to binging at New Year's (which I did not[/] do, btw), but that is when I wouldve been damaging my daughter the most. During the summer, when I had my first (and only) drinks in six months (some champagne at a cousin's wedding, and a glass of wine at a nice dinner with my brother and his fiancée when they were in town), I was visibly pregnant, but I made an informed decision that one special-occasion drink a month or so would be ok. I would have been absolutely mortified if I had been refused service on those occasions. Perhaps if I had ordered multiple rounds of drinks or shots, the server would be justified in refusing to serve me, but I don't think that they would have been justified in refusing to serve me one glass.

[Mama Mia]

What people also forget is that women who are addicted to some drugs, heroin for example, are encouraged NOT to stop using while pregnant. Generally they are told to switch to methadone, but just an abrupt withdrawal from opiates can be more harmful to the baby than continued use. Or at least thar was the advice 20 years ago when I worked with addicted moms. I'm sure the point in pregnancy matters as well. I agree with others who have said that infants with FAS are much more severely effected than those exposed to other drugs. I also think people make much too big a deal about an occasional drink.

[bionicmlle]

Interesting thread!! I often find it difficult, even as a very pro-choice woman (even using the 39 week abortion argument at times to make a point....), to develop a cogent opInion on women who have questionable behaviors during pregnancies. So, I have a question for you Jingers ---

What if a woman, 24+ weeks pregnant comes in and says "I want to cut this baby out of my body." She doesn't display other signs of psychosis or depression. No suicidal thoughts and doesn't want to harm baby, per se. just wants to cut it out. She has expressed desire to her family to cut the baby out and they have hidden knives, etc. Do you hospitalize to protect her and the baby? If the desire to "cut baby out" resolves, do you send her back home and just hope all is well?

[JesusFightClub]

That's a really interesting question. I hope the med. professionals here can give an answer, because I wonder what their take would be.

For me, I think I would talk to the woman to find out what the cutting desire is. Does she want to not be pregnant and not have a baby at all? Is she experiencing a strange urge to cut herself (it could be a delusion)? Does she want it "over and done with" but have a baby as a result? What brought on the desire and how long has it lasted for? What do her friends and relations feel may lie behind that urge? What, most importantly, does she feel?

It would be good if she went to a hospital to be closely monitored for a while, because that is a disturbing thought which may give her a lot of trouble. It could possibly be the case that an abortion is appropriate (I know we won't all agree on that one) but I wouldn't like to make a decision based on one moment. I would also be worried that if it seemed to be resolved, she was faking to get past the doctors and still did really believe the baby needed to be cut out, she may harm herself.

Finally, I would be concerned that she's thinking about knives and cutting as a solution. It sounds like she almost wants to punish herself or is angry for some reason. (After all, she's not saying "If I could just take a pill and make the baby go away...")

[longskirtlotsakids]

Kay, people? Do a search for my thread on "West Bend, WI." In it I give a short history of crap that's been going down for a long time. This doctor is located in West Bend,WI.

West Bend is nothing more than a safe haven for tight passed, misogynistic, homophobic, and anti sex WELS and Catholic coffer funders. My Catholic school had a molestor priest, it took until the international scandal to expose him, too late for me and a shitload of my friends that tried to tell on ( 1991, we got either shaken by the nun or hit by our parents. We were rebellious and "just wanted to get out of CCD"

Hell, try being a YMCA member from a different club and stopping in for a bit of a workout....they'll reject you if you don't have two other forms of ID, and that's if your white.If you're Hispanic or black, forget it.

This town, remember, is represented by a misogynist MRA 'er , Glenn Grothman, who is 6o something, never married, and still lives at home.

Everything about this sucks. Any reason I started running away at age 15, despite having a low A average and being in the top 10% of my 350+ graduating HS class??? (ETA: the many typos and riffles are due to bouncy phone typing, not ignorance... honest, said the viper!"

[Flossie]

This thread is a trigger for me, because I can see how jailing a mother-to-be to protect the baby can be going too far, and I can see how it can sometimes be necessary. As is my wont, I have a story to tell to explain why I feel this way. I'll try to keep it short.

A woman in my town arrived at the local hospital in labor. Don't know how she got there, but she was very drunk and had other drugs in her system. When she was examined, the baby's heart rate was too low, so the doctors had to give her a C-section, but it was too late. The baby died within a few hours after birth. In the meantime, a child about the age of three was running around and causing problems. This child was inappropriately dressed for the weather, dirty, loud, and asking people for food. When approached by staff, the child ran away, but was eventually cornered in a bathroom and found to be the child of the woman who had just given birth. This child was also found to be malnurished and actually almost five years of age.

The woman was found to have a personality disorder and a mental illness, and her drug and alcohol abuse was her trying to self-medicate. She admitted that she didn't have the older child with her very much, kept dumping him off on her druggie friends. Don't know if she had family nearby or why the family didn't want to care for the child. The woman also admitted that she only kept the older child because of the state benefits. The woman served some time in jail, and was told that if she wanted to get her surviving child back she'd have to follow a drug/alcohol program along with taking meds for her disorder. She was also released on the condition that she visit her parole officer regularly, and take a drug test each time.

She disappeared for a time but was soon arrested again, and since she'd violated her parole, she was sent back to jail. There it was discovered that she was pregnant again, but early in her pregnancy. I'm not sure how far along she was, but probably six to eight weeks. She was also drunk and had other drugs in her system at the time of arrest.

This time the judge threw the book at her. She was going to have to serve all of her original time plus time for violating her parole. Her court-appointed attorney came back with an offer: she would not only give up her parental rights to both of her surviving children, get her tubes tied, get into a treatment program for her drug and alcohol abuse, take her meds for her mental disorders, and go into counseling. The court agreed, and the woman got her tubes tied, but upon release from jail did none of the other things. She ended up completing her full sentence, and the last I heard she was in and out of jail.

I know these things because I know the family that adopted the two surviving children that she had. I've met them, I've babysat them. I feel sorry for the woman who had had to try to deal with life with so many problems that are built into her DNA, and I feel sorry for the children she bore.

ETA, sorry, I couldn't keep it short. There's just too much history to tell.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I've had similar cases. Several times, I had to do the paperwork to apprehend a child at birth.

I don't think anyone would argue that addicts are providing the best start in life for their children. The issue is how to deal with them, in ways that are likely to improve outcomes and respect basic civil rights.

One of the issues that also came up in a number of my child protection cases was that parents would simply disappear. They would move, they would avoid contact with services that could identify them, and they would fall off the radar. On the other hand, the agency was quite supportive of moms with problems if they were actively getting help and had sources of support. If an addicted pregnant woman is able to access programs and know that she'll get some support instead of getting locked up, she'll be more likely to get prenatal care and have someone watching for signs that she's relapsing, or going into labor, or neglecting a child.

Jails are not designed to provide great prenatal care. They are high-risk environments for these women and their fetuses.

[Terrie]

While it's true a rare drink won't harm, the big problem with FAS is that it's really a subset of a spectrum disorder, and there are so many factors involved that it's basically impossible to say what the cut off point of "safe" is. It's not just "heavily" addicted pregnant women. It's really any regular drinking that's a risk. I have a friend from high school with FAE (neurological damage, but none of the classic "facial features" of FAS), and I tend to agree with her stance. The solution is 1) education -- there are still people who think "Well, I'm not binge drinking, so it's fine" even when they are drinking several times a week, 2) stop stigmatizing addiction as a character flaw and recognize it for what it is -- a disease and 3) better access to rehab.

[Mama Mia]

I think in your hypothetical situation of a 24+ week pregnant woman wanting to cut out the baby, the woman should be placed on a psychiatric hold and assessed for treatment. Regardless of the effect on the baby, and whatever your philosophical/legal stance on that, if she were to attempt to cut the baby out she would likely die. So she falls into the category of a "threat to self" .