Child Gypsy Wedding in Russia

[Cleopatra7]

http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2013/10/13/russia/?ref=global-home# (Link not broken because it's the NYT)

The wedding is one part of a larger story on poverty and desperation in Russia, but after I read that part in particular I was :wtf: , especially when I read this part:

She looked like a neighborhood teenager hired to baby-sit the groom, Ryoma, who was 13. It was unclear how they had produced a bloody sheet, brandished traditionally at Gypsy weddings to certify that her hymen had been broken. (“You can break it with your hands,†said his mother, Luisa Mikhai, a kind-faced woman.) ... Before the Soviet Union collapsed, the Education Ministry insisted that all children attend school, but not now.Forty percent of the children here do not study at all, said Stephania Kulayeva of St. Petersburg’s Memorial Anti-Discrimination Center.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is no way to ensure that all children be properly educated, unless the state steps in and is willing to forcibly break people of anti-education traditions, whether the country in question is the US, Russia, or Pakistan. I just don't see any other way.

[FloraKitty35]

http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2013/10/13/russia/?ref=global-home# (Link not broken because it's the NYT)

The wedding is one part of a larger story on poverty and desperation in Russia, but after I read that part in particular I was :wtf: , especially when I read this part:

I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is no way to ensure that all children be properly educated, unless the state steps in and is willing to forcibly break people of anti-education traditions, whether the country in question is the US, Russia, or Pakistan. I just don't see any other way.

You're right but we know that it's going to be a long and hard process. America has a long and (sadly)proud history of anti-intellectualism (i.e. "don't be too smart or you'll be a nerd that nobody likes"). Susan Jacoby wrote an excellent book the about anti-education and anti-intellectualism streak that has been a factor in American life called "The Age of American Unreason".

[rward]

The vast majority of girls over the age of 10 don't have hymens, assuming they were even born with one. Simply jumping up and down can break the hymen.

So, yeah, where does the blood come from? Just, ick.

[Mela99]

The vast majority of girls over the age of 10 don't have hymens, assuming they were even born with one. Simply jumping up and down can break the hymen.

So, yeah, where does the blood come from? Just, ick.

Forceful sex from clumsy boys who aren't old enough to know anything about being gentle or kind or that women have needs.

[rward]

Forceful sex from clumsy boys who aren't old enough to know anything about being gentle or kind or that women have needs.

My vagina just curled up and hid. I've had some clumsy first-timer sex and not gentle at all sex (on purpose) and never bled. Yikes.

[polabear]

I bled like a stuck pig the first time I had sex. But my vagina might be a special flower cause I've been know to bleed just from regular fun sex after its been a while.

[Arete]

Weddings of young Roma girls who have barely entered puberty are not unheard of in Western Europe as well. The cause is not Russia's poverty, though that certainly takes money away from social services that would do enforcement.

When you have a state trying to "forcibly" change anything that has cultural roots, all you get is people digging in and feeling under siege. The change has to come within the culture itself, argued by members of the culture, not someone from the dominant culture coming in and saying "we know what's good for you".

[Desert Ice]

The vast majority of girls over the age of 10 don't have hymens, assuming they were even born with one. Simply jumping up and down can break the hymen.

So, yeah, where does the blood come from? Just, ick.

Citation, please?

[Miggy]

Citation = any biology textbook. (The hymen must break at least partially to allow periods to occur.)

[guidedbybobafett]

Weddings of young Roma girls who have barely entered puberty are not unheard of in Western Europe as well. The cause is not Russia's poverty, though that certainly takes money away from social services that would do enforcement.

When you have a state trying to "forcibly" change anything that has cultural roots, all you get is people digging in and feeling under siege. The change has to come within the culture itself, argued by members of the culture, not someone from the dominant culture coming in and saying "we know what's good for you".

While I agree with some of your points, I am not really a cultural relativist. I think there are certain things that the world population can and should come to a consensus on. Forced marriage of minors is a hard line for me, and I'm not interested in allowing cultures to come to the conclusion on their own. While I understand that people take many stances on this, I have moved from hard-line cultural relativist to something quite a bit different, and it wasn't a huge leap for me. What if the culture isn't interested in changing? I'm not advocating international war, but I do believe that the state does (and should) exist for the welfare of the people, particularly those who are unable to change the culture themselves. Would you advocate a non-interventionist policy to a 13 year old girl who did not want to be raped on her wedding night?

[guidedbybobafett]

Citation = any biology textbook. (The hymen must break at least partially to allow periods to occur.)

That is true, but it also does not mean that hymen's do not bleed when broken, and some hymens are very, very thick. Not everyone bleeds the first time they have sex, but it basic biology that many broken hymens will bleed (not all). Some women's hymens have to be manually "broken" by a doctor.

[Evilbad]

We took a trip to Romania and the info our tour guide gave us on the Roma was very interesting. States have tried since the fall of Ceaușescu to provide education to Roma children, and they cannot get them to come to school. They started even providing free meals, so the kids would show up, eat, and then leave. It's a hard road. They were forced out of France, given money to leave, so they took the money, left, and went right back. They roll into town here, and send their kids door to door to ask for money, all the while being followed by a family member in a car. I had one older woman try to push her way into my house, it was kind of scary. She just kept trying to come in my house, and I couldn't even push her back because she would have fallen down my front steps.

There's no denying that crime raises when they roll through your town (our vehicles have been broken into more than once), and that there is a lot about their culture that needs to change (underage marriage, not educating their children) but they're kind of like Lauren; they roll in and out too fast for any one state agency to help them or work with them. They don't want the help or to be worked with. They're pretty happy the way they are. So I don't know what the answer is. They have a rich heritage and there are some beautiful parts about their culture, but there are a lot of things that should change about the Roma way of life. Not sure how to make that happen, though. There is so much prejudice towards them that it's hard to even know where to start. Even the Romanians we met didn't have very many nice things to say about the Roma.

[RosyDaisy]

I bled like a stuck pig the first time I had sex. But my vagina might be a special flower cause I've been know to bleed just from regular fun sex after its been a while.

I barely bled when I has sex for the first time. Just a few little drops. I wipped myself, and there was no more bleeding. My first time was a little uncomfortable, but not painful. Then again, I was 22, in love with my partner at the time, and had done a lot of fooling around before PiV sex.

[RosyDaisy]

We took a trip to Romania and the info our tour guide gave us on the Roma was very interesting. States have tried since the fall of Ceaușescu to provide education to Roma children, and they cannot get them to come to school. They started even providing free meals, so the kids would show up, eat, and then leave. It's a hard road. They were forced out of France, given money to leave, so they took the money, left, and went right back. They roll into town here, and send their kids door to door to ask for money, all the while being followed by a family member in a car. I had one older woman try to push her way into my house, it was kind of scary. She just kept trying to come in my house, and I couldn't even push her back because she would have fallen down my front steps.

There's no denying that crime raises when they roll through your town (our vehicles have been broken into more than once), and that there is a lot about their culture that needs to change (underage marriage, not educating their children) but they're kind of like Lauren; they roll in and out too fast for any one state agency to help them or work with them. They don't want the help or to be worked with. They're pretty happy the way they are. So I don't know what the answer is. They have a rich heritage and there are some beautiful parts about their culture, but there are a lot of things that should change about the Roma way of life. Not sure how to make that happen, though. There is so much prejudice towards them that it's hard to even know where to start. Even the Romanians we met didn't have very many nice things to say about the Roma.

Getting an education doesn't mean you lose your cultural/ethnic heritage. Forcible assimilation isn't the answer. Maybe the answer lies with missionaries (who don't have an agenda) to come into the Roma communities, earn their trust, and show them that they can retain their beliefs, heritage, culture, and ethnicity and become educated productive members of society.

[purpleeee]

Here is a very different take on a Roma culture enthusiastic for child education (Hungarian Roma).

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/educ ... dents.html

(unbroken link, public newspaper)

It explains why parents and children are often afraid and suspicious of school. Cultural change happened because discrimination was addressed.

[Cleopatra7]

Social change can come from below and above. For example, in order for real changes to occur in Southern race relations, not only were marches and boycotts needed, but legislation at the federal level that would actually be enforced. If we sat around and waited for Southern whites to decide to grant blacks the rights of equal citizenship of their own accord, not only would there still be "White" and "Colored" signs, but chattel slavery would still be around. Similarly, although there were activists working to decriminalize abortion at the state and municipal level in the 1950s and 1960s, it took Roe v. Wade to eliminate all pre-existing anti-abortion laws. In the case of the Roma, it seems like the countries in which they reside have already decided that these people are scum, and don't care if they go to school or not, and the Roma think that teachers and other authorities are out to get them. There needs to be a way to determine how to address anti-Roma sentiment and to find ways for them to retain the good parts of their heritage and embrace the modern world.

[Clementine]

http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2013/10/13/russia/?ref=global-home# (Link not broken because it's the NYT)

The wedding is one part of a larger story on poverty and desperation in Russia, but after I read that part in particular I was :wtf: , especially when I read this part:

I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is no way to ensure that all children be properly educated, unless the state steps in and is willing to forcibly break people of anti-education traditions, whether the country in question is the US, Russia, or Pakistan. I just don't see any other way.

It doesn't necessarily help. In Sweden, it is mandatory to go to school for nine years, but a lot of our Roma population refuse to send the kids there, especially the girls. Our government have spent hundreds of millions of crowns for 40-50 years on different integration projects and still something like 80% of the Roma population are unemployed and a high percentage of them have un

Normally, if a parent refuse to send a kid to school, the social service will intervene and as a last resort the police will come and pick the child up. But since this is an ethnic minority that would be "racist" so the authorities turn a blind eye to it and Roma girls continue to be uneducated. I think it's a complete disgrace - all children, regardless of their ethnic or cultural background should be guaranteed at least a basic education.

[Clementine]

We took a trip to Romania and the info our tour guide gave us on the Roma was very interesting. States have tried since the fall of Ceaușescu to provide education to Roma children, and they cannot get them to come to school. They started even providing free meals, so the kids would show up, eat, and then leave. It's a hard road. They were forced out of France, given money to leave, so they took the money, left, and went right back. They roll into town here, and send their kids door to door to ask for money, all the while being followed by a family member in a car. I had one older woman try to push her way into my house, it was kind of scary. She just kept trying to come in my house, and I couldn't even push her back because she would have fallen down my front steps.

There's no denying that crime raises when they roll through your town (our vehicles have been broken into more than once), and that there is a lot about their culture that needs to change (underage marriage, not educating their children) but they're kind of like Lauren; they roll in and out too fast for any one state agency to help them or work with them. They don't want the help or to be worked with. They're pretty happy the way they are. So I don't know what the answer is. They have a rich heritage and there are some beautiful parts about their culture, but there are a lot of things that should change about the Roma way of life. Not sure how to make that happen, though. There is so much prejudice towards them that it's hard to even know where to start. Even the Romanians we met didn't have very many nice things to say about the Roma.

Roma are behind a lot of the human trafficking in Europe too, both with women and children used for prostitution, people who are cheap labourers and people with disabilities who are forced to beg. There are Roma beggars outside every foodstore in almost every town in Sweden now, a lot of them are trafficked here, and only get to keep a small percentage of what they get. Where I live, one car comes every morning and lets four women out who place themselves outside the food stores. They sit on the pavement wrapped in big duvets and beg all day. One man stands on the corner and watches them and come to collect the money every other hour.

And to my great chock, the Swedish police prosecuted two Rumanian Roma human traffickers just this week, who forced young Roma girls to prostitute themselves in a brothel situated one block from where I live. One girl will testify, the rest are back in Rumania, living under threats from the traffickers and refuse to speak to the police.

[Clementine]

Ten children who are believed to be stolen / kidnapped or trafficked found in Roma camp in Greece:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ma ... at-2467765

[Cleopatra7]

Roma are behind a lot of the human trafficking in Europe too, both with women and children used for prostitution, people who are cheap labourers and people with disabilities who are forced to beg. There are Roma beggars outside every foodstore in almost every town in Sweden now, a lot of them are trafficked here, and only get to keep a small percentage of what they get. Where I live, one car comes every morning and lets four women out who place themselves outside the food stores. They sit on the pavement wrapped in big duvets and beg all day. One man stands on the corner and watches them and come to collect the money every other hour.

And to my great chock, the Swedish police prosecuted two Rumanian Roma human traffickers just this week, who forced young Roma girls to prostitute themselves in a brothel situated one block from where I live. One girl will testify, the rest are back in Rumania, living under threats from the traffickers and refuse to speak to the police.

So to what extent are Roma misunderstood minorities versus organized crime families? I read somewhere that the UK considers Irish Travellers to be an antisocial group (I forget the exact term), rather than a clearly defined ethnic group that just happens to be unpopular.

[Arete]

For the Roma, they are both a minority and have a serious social component of grifting, theft and trafficking in Southern Europe. I don't know how to disentangle the which causes what, but the problem is multifaceted. There is serious prejudice against the Roma in Southern Europe (I am speaking only to things I have witnessed with my own eyes, so I don't know the ins and outs of Eastern Europe or the UK), but at the same time, it is hard to ignore the fact that they organize children into pickpocketing teams, have beggars that are paying daily cuts to a "pimp" for the privilege of their particular area, and traffic in illegal prostitutes in places where prostitution is actually LEGAL.

Sure, the key is to educate the children in order to break the power and cut off the money for the men who are at the top of these con and pimping pyramids within Roma communities. They are the ones who are most afraid of Roma children getting an education, and they will do and say anything to frighten the children and the parents who want to educate them, and to get the authorities to throw in the enforcement towel. You feed that into the fact that most children in Southern Europe are raised to stay away from Roma because they told Roma are thieves and kidnappers, and each community gets to stay stagnant and wallow in their individual grievances.

[Rachel333]

Citation = any biology textbook. (The hymen must break at least partially to allow periods to occur.)

Most hymens don't completely cover the vagina, so that's not an issue for most women whether their hymen is fully intact or not. It's also not something that breaks once and is gone. It's true that a lot of childhood activities can tear the hymen, but I've never read that most women don't have one by the time they first have intercourse.

[Diana]

Weddings of young Roma girls who have barely entered puberty are not unheard of in Western Europe as well. The cause is not Russia's poverty, though that certainly takes money away from social services that would do enforcement.

So true, this is normal in the gypsy community here in spain also. There is this reality-documental show in tv right now about them (i wish you could see it, it have so much snark material!). In one of the last episodes a 15 year old girl married her first cousin of 23, she looked miserable in the wedding the poor thing.

[Mama Mia]

http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2013/10/13/russia/?ref=global-home# (Link not broken because it's the NYT)

The wedding is one part of a larger story on poverty and desperation in Russia, but after I read that part in particular I was :wtf: , especially when I read this part:

I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is no way to ensure that all children be properly educated, unless the state steps in and is willing to forcibly break people of anti-education traditions, whether the country in question is the US, Russia, or Pakistan. I just don't see any other way.

It's an interesting dilema across many cultures and sub-cultures. How do you balance people's right to their own self-determination, with the larger societies interest in at least partially determining what "self-determination" even means.

In my own area we see this come up with indeginous people's from Mexico who come to California to work in the fields. They don't fit into either the Mexican or Anglo culture and don't speak Spanish or English and it is very difficult to find translators.

Particular problems arise when it comes to sex and marriage at very young ages. With one particular group marriage, or sexual relationships ( with much older partners) at age 12 are very common. When someone gets married the grooms family will throw a large wedding with food and beverages. But this gets translated into the local media as young girls being sold for cows and beer.

CPS will get involved, but often the parents had absolutely no idea that this was illegal. Once CPS is involved or the police, the families in the community become even more isolationist and wary of the larger culture that they feel is just trying to steal their children.

It's a very difficult situation.

[Clementine]

So to what extent are Roma misunderstood minorities versus organized crime families? I read somewhere that the UK considers Irish Travellers to be an antisocial group (I forget the exact term), rather than a clearly defined ethnic group that just happens to be unpopular.

Roma is an ethnic group with roots in India. They have managed to keep their own culture and traditions and ethnicity, despite the fact that they have lived in Europe as minority groups for hundreds of years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people