Food stamp fiasco

[MyName]

Holy Cow, Balcony! I'm sorry you had that experience. :angry-banghead:

FWIW, our church operates a food pantry and do not sit and counsel people to win back their loser husbands instead of giving them food. The pastor does try to weed out anyone who is just BSing us, but other than that, we help people. You would never have been denied assistance at our church.

Just want to A) condemn the assholes that did that to you and B) tell you we aren't all assholes. :mrgreen:

[rward]

I can't believe people are making excuses for the looters (because that is technically what they are doing). I guess when people loot during riots we should all feel sorry for them, because they can't help it that they can't afford these nice things, and the world would be a much better place if we all had nice things, blah blah blah.

Please.

What these people did was wrong. They KNEW they were cheating the system and did it anyway. I can understand if someone went and bought a few steaks, maybe some lobster, or other nice things. But shopping cart after shopping cart, thousands of dollars worth, more food than they could eat? No. They were going to sell that food. They knew exactly what they were doing, they felt entitled to it, and that is a pretty crappy mentality to have.

I do think Walmart should have shut it down. They knew it was a glitch, and were hoping they could get uncle Sam to pay.

Try being poor, honey. REally, really poor, not eating on the regular, never eating anything healthy poor for at least a decade. Shut up until you do.

I'm just escaping from a lifetime of that level of poverty and let me tell you the things I do.

1. I check my wallet and my bank account every day, 5, 6, 12 times a day. I call my husband just as many times to ask him what we need to buy, what am I forgetting, where is that money going.

2. I check the pantry and the fridge just as many times a day.

3. I get myself a bowl of cereal, but not until I calculate how many bowls are in the box and how much milk is in the fridge and how many days until payday- even though it doesn't matter, I've got money to buy more cereal.

4. That cereal? It's not what I really wanted. I really wanted Kashi in the shape of hearts. I had a sample of it and liked it and it's healthy and has protein. But it's expensive and even though I can afford it, I couldn't justify buying it to myself.

5. So then I checked my wallet again.

6. I called my husband to make sure we have canned crushed tomatoes. We do, just like the last 10 times I asked.

7. I didn't buy fruit. I love fruit, but fruit is expensive. I can afford fruit, but fruit is a treat. It's not a thing you just keep around.

8. I checked my bank account again. It didn't change.

9. I could have bought lunch from the food truck out front. It looks delicious, but paying for lunch? I can eat leftovers or a small bag of chips.

So, let me loose with unlimited funds in a place that has fruit and Kashi and I might go a bit bonkers. My limit for bonkers might be within your acceptable range of a few steaks and a lobster, but it might not be.

[shaylahc]

I grew up really poor for a large part of my childhood. I know what it's like to be poor. Being poor never involved me stealing from anyone. Being poor is not an excuse to act like an animal.

[theologygeek]

You know, I wonder about the "greedy fuck" mentality. It's one thing to be genuinely food insecure, to not know where your next meal will come from sometimes, to have to depend on food pantries and dumpster diving to make ends meet. It's another to not have quite that level of insecurity, to be able to get food pretty much all the time, but for it to be so...boring. And frustrating.

When you have to eat beans mixed with white rice because it's cheap and it's the only thing you have. When you have to account for every slice of bread in a loaf because you can't afford to throw anything away. When you get out of the store and realize you have to return something you bought because you won't be able to afford bus fare without that money. So you're working and/or going to school and living like that for months on end and it SUCKS SO MUCH.

Then all of a sudden some random glitch happens and you have the ability to buy anything you want. You can buy cookies, you can buy soda, you can buy fresh meat. It's like a miracle. Which doesn't excuse clearly cheating the system, but I can understand the mentality. I don't consider myself a greedy fuck most of the time, but if that happened to me, probably the main thing stopping me from going apeshit would be the fact that it might influence my future benefits.

I do volunteer work. You explained it all to a tee. Exactly to a tee.

[theologygeek]

I grew up really poor for a large part of my childhood. I know what it's like to be poor. Being poor never involved me stealing from anyone. Being poor is not an excuse to act like an animal.

But that's just you. Everyone is wired differently, and people's past or present experiences have an effect on the brain, which in turn has an effect on a person's behavior. That's why I said "some" people. Poverty really does effect the brain in some people because it is stressful and traumatic. I see it all the time. That's why I don't judge, the same way I wouldn't judge someone who gets panic attacks or depression. Everyone's brain is unique, and what is the norm for one person is not the norm for someone else. Whenever the brain is concerned, there are no across the board rules.

[jaynie]

I do volunteer work. You explained it all to a tee. Exactly to a tee.

This is more or less my understanding from a psychological point of view as well. Living that way doesn't cause you to do something like this, but its a "risk factor" that will affect some more than others. Constant poverty screws with your brain, and is capable of powerfully altering your priorities and your values.

Even if we talk about something like looting TVs (rather than overbuying essentials like food):

-you live in a world which constantly bombards you with the message that material possessions make the man

-you live in a subset of that society that has very little upward mobility, in which you maybe can't even pull yourself up by your bootstraps because you can't fit bootstraps into the budget

-you see people working their asses off at minimum wage jobs just to stay afloat, while the rich kids on TV do nothing but jet around the world in luxury

-you therefore have a strong sense that the world is unfair and maybe that the only way to get anything is to take it

-you're not invested in "society" anyway because "society" repeatedly condemns you for existing at all.

etc etc. The point isn't that all or even most poor people follow that path. The point is that the extreme disparity we have in society is a risk factor which will inevitably send some people who have no protective factors over the edge.

Psychology is seldom as simple as "good people" and "bad people". There are a million and one little factors that affect every decision made by every person, and societal inequality has a big role in a lot of those factors. It's not an excuse. But it's a reason.

[theologygeek]

No. They were going to sell that food. They knew exactly what they were doing, they felt entitled to it, and that is a pretty crappy mentality to have.

You sure do know a lot about people you know nothing about. Where did you get all this from? Did you get to have personal interviews with each person?

[Buzzard]

But that's just you. Everyone is wired differently, and people's past or present experiences have an effect on the brain, which in turn has an effect on a person's behavior. That's why I said "some" people. Poverty really does effect the brain in some people because it is stressful and traumatic. I see it all the time. That's why I don't judge, the same way I wouldn't judge someone who gets panic attacks or depression. Everyone's brain is unique, and what is the norm for one person is not the norm for someone else. Whenever the brain is concerned, there are no across the board rules.

But there is a rule - dont steal. If I know that there isnt money in my account but there is a glitch that will let me walk out of the store I KNOW I'm stealing. If I know there is a glitch that is ringing up products incorrectly and I abuse it thats stealing. In this case the products belonged to a corporation so they're not all warm and fuzzy, but people still took things knowing that they could not pay for them.

I understand that poverty does things to people, I see it daily here in the courthouse. The bottom line is that you cannot steal. I make no excuses for the people who took the items nor walmart for allowing it to happen, both carry fault and I hope both are held responsible.

[theologygeek]

Psychology is seldom as simple as "good people" and "bad people". There are a million and one little factors that affect every decision made by every person, and societal inequality has a big role in a lot of those factors. It's not an excuse. But it's a reason.

I agree with everything you said. There are too many variables, and even someone who grew up poor shouldn't be judging this. One day, I took my son with me into a housing project. He was about 10 at the time. When we got in the car, he said "Why do some people move out of here to a safer neighborhood and some people stay here their whole lives?" I told him that there wasn't just one answer. Everyone was different and we're not here to judge, just to help. That is why it would be wrong for someone to say "Well I moved out of here and bought a house, so I don't know why you can't just do the same." It's also why stating that one was poor and wouldn't do this is not a valid argument.

My son also asked me something else in the car that day. He wanted to know why there were so many pot holes on that street that they never fixed when our street didn't have any. I told him that the pot holes represented so much about life and the ways of the world. When you spend every day, from sun up to sun down, being surrounded by despair, and no one cares enough to help you and even fix the pot holes that are always there, you sink deeper and deeper into a sadness that is hard to climb out of. The pot holes say that you are low on the ladder. People with money are higher on the ladder than you are. You aren't worth much so we don't rush to fix those pot holes, but people with money are worth more than you and we will rush to fix theirs. Some people become what they feel the world tells them that they are. It's sad. The pot hole speech must have had a lasting impression on him, because he is an adult now and still brings it up. It did help define him into how he treats others, so I am pleased.

[RosyDaisy]

The people commenting on The Pew Research site need to take remedial math and develop some critical thinking skills. :angry-banghead:

[Buzzard]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walmart- ... d=20563982

It appears that the people who overspent wont see any deduction in future benefits, the bill will fall on walmart.

The Louisiana Department of Children and Family Services' spokesman Trey Williams said the retailers who chose not to use the emergency procedures that limit sales up to $50 per cardholder during an emergency would be responsible for any additional amount spent over eligible benefit balances.

Following the policy clarification by the Louisiana Department of Children and Family Services, Walmart told ABCNews.com the incident was "isolated" and the company doesn't believe it had any material impact to its U.S. business.

The shopping frenzy was triggered when the Electronic Benefits Transfer system went down because a back-up generator failed at 11 a.m. EST Saturday during a regularly-scheduled test, according to Xerox, a vendor for the EBT system and based in Norwalk, Conn.

The bill could be a sizeable one for Walmart.

The article says that people had several shopping carts full of items, went out, and came back for more. While I'm glad the bill wont come back to the taxpayers I would still like to see those that abused the system prosecuted.

[flyawaystray]

It's is both the stores fault and the customers for taking advantage of the system. When something is free, people are going to go crazy if they can.

The store should have capped purchases at a certain amount. I too believe that the people who took advantage and went over their allotted amount should be held liable.

[Stephanie66]

Clearly, they were in need. Someone walked away with 700 dollars in groceries. I hope there account do not get frozen due to their excessive shopping.

What??

They stole, and they should have to repay it. Of course their account should be frozen. They won't starve...they have $700 in groceries. That's two months worth for us, and we aren't thrifty.

Under your theory, people should just be allowed to take whatever they want from you, as long as they are needier. :roll:

[roddma]

What the shoppers did may not be ideal but they are not at fault. This is soley on Walmarts behind. The article I read said Walmart was told to proceed with the transactions. I do know people that were on food stamps that didn't deserve it. One family I knew had food stamps but the kids begged the neighbors for food. The aunt complained the kids got into her food while she lived with the grandmother(her mother). Two of the three kids basically ran the streets m The parents never tried to better themselves and now they are in jail for Meth. These parental tyoes need to be punished in some way without hurting kids.This'is what IMO makes the whole system look bad. It takes away from the deserving.

[flyawaystray]

See, I do think that is partly the shopper's fault. If your food stamp limit is $300 a month and you take advantage and buy $500 worth of groceries knowing it's free, then you are guilty of stealing. It's that simple.

[Clementine]

See, I do think that is partly the shopper's fault. If your food stamp limit is $300 a month and you take advantage and buy $500 worth of groceries knowing it's free, then you are guilty of stealing. It's that simple.

I wonder if they weren't worried about having to repay the money they spent.

When I recieved rent subsidiaries from the government when I was a student, I was so scared of recieving too much and risking having to pay it back in a lump sum, something that would have been very difficult at that time.

[snuggles911]

I call bullshit.

Maybe some, a very slight some, were doing this because they felt uncertain about their next meal but I bet that the majority of them were greedy fucks that figured a way to game the system.

Shame on Walmart for letting it happen and then complain about it, but shame on those people for being dishonest.

Agree with this. The majority of people from the area who receive food stamps didn't run out to Wal-Mart to take advantage of the situation. But, enough people did to create chaos and give everyone who receives them a bad image.

[Boogalou]

What the shoppers did may not be ideal but they are not at fault. This is soley on Walmarts behind. The article I read said Walmart was told to proceed with the transactions. I do know people that were on food stamps that didn't deserve it. One family I knew had food stamps but the kids begged the neighbors for food. The aunt complained the kids got into her food while she lived with the grandmother(her mother). Two of the three kids basically ran the streets m The parents never tried to better themselves and now they are in jail for Meth. These parental tyoes need to be punished in some way without hurting kids.This'is what IMO makes the whole system look bad. It takes away from the deserving.

I think that people who are using meth still deserve to eat. I'll even go so far as to say I think everyone deserves to eat. I think it's sad that you think food is only for the deserving.

[roddma]

I think that people who are using meth still deserve to eat. I'll even go so far as to say I think everyone deserves to eat. I think it's sad that you think food is only for the deserving.

I never said they didn't deserve food. They didn't deserve government assistance for their previous behavior..The kids needed removing. from that home ages ago. Thankfully they are with grandparents now. My neighbors tried to get food stamps and got told they made $6 too much money. My friend has MS. His food stamps were cut when he started drawing disability. If you knew this other people believe me you would think the same thing. There was no excuse for the way they lived. They never did anything like this before. If everyone deserves food no one should be turned down food stamps. But obviously the government has their own opinions on who is deserving. I guess I am familiar with too many people who gamed the system. I don't have an issue with anyone who needs help. It is the example above I have an issue with

[flyawaystray]

I wonder if they weren't worried about having to repay the money they spent.

When I recieved rent subsidiaries from the government when I was a student, I was so scared of recieving too much and risking having to pay it back in a lump sum, something that would have been very difficult at that time.

Yeah, I agree. I'm sure the shoppers weren't worried about having to pay any money back. Walmart should have had a cap, that way, nobody could take advantage of the situation.

[Mango]

This is a sincere question...do you think asking about the circumstances of your family is insulting you for being poor? I truly am wondering HOW a church food pantry would be insulting...I have volunteered in some and wonder if I am missing something.

In Beavercreek, Ohio there is an organization called "Feed the Creek". K-8th grade children on the free and reduced lunch program are given a bag of groceries to meet meal needs on the weekend. This is run though a network of local churches, Beavercreek Nazarene, is the primary church coordinator. How is this type of program insulting? (again a sincere question...not snarky)

One of the biggest problems I've found recently (trying to help a friend get out of a shitty abusive marriage) is that while we found LOTS of places that will give her canned goods, after the first place, she's fine for food. The real needs now are some finnancial help, for a lawyer to deal with custody issues and child support (legal aid won't do either of those and everyone else wants $1000+ retainers- which I get, lawyers gotta pay their staff too, but it's very frustrating right now), and for repairs on the shitty house she's rented because it was the one she could afford in a school district. (Yes, the landlord SHOULD be responsible, but he's dodging calls, and she can't move her furniture into a house with bare subflooring). A bunch of them were really judgemental about the fact that she chose to rent the not-so-great house (it'll be great once it has some work done and she's handy enough to do most of it, but the flooring is a big outlay in materials cost and rent is due in 10 days) instead of placing her pets and going to the women's shelter.

But you know, giving money to poor people just encourages them to be irresponsible and buy TVs.

[mlady]

With Walmarts encouragement people turned into looters. That's the beginning, middle and end of this story. Did you SEE those carts that were abandoned? This had NOTHING to do with "poor people deserve to eat" and EVERYTHING to do with "I got an unlimited cash card!". Do not even pretend it's anything else.

For the record I don't have a problem with food stamps for the needy but I think the program could be cut in half and still do that. Food stamps are not just for poor people, most they are a business and people are making big money of it.

[Stephanie66]

I have no issue with removing items like gum, energy drinks and soda from the list of foods you can buy on food stamps. They aren't food.

When the schools banned sodas, this kid on food stamps would sell sodas before and after school for cash. Not sure what to make of that, except that's when I learned that yes, you can buy Mountain Dew on food stamps.

[Mama Mia]

This is more or less my understanding from a psychological point of view as well. Living that way doesn't cause you to do something like this, but its a "risk factor" that will affect some more than others. Constant poverty screws with your brain, and is capable of powerfully altering your priorities and your values.

Even if we talk about something like looting TVs (rather than overbuying essentials like food):

-you live in a world which constantly bombards you with the message that material possessions make the man

-you live in a subset of that society that has very little upward mobility, in which you maybe can't even pull yourself up by your bootstraps because you can't fit bootstraps into the budget

-you see people working their asses off at minimum wage jobs just to stay afloat, while the rich kids on TV do nothing but jet around the world in luxury

-you therefore have a strong sense that the world is unfair and maybe that the only way to get anything is to take it

-you're not invested in "society" anyway because "society" repeatedly condemns you for existing at all.

etc etc. The point isn't that all or even most poor people follow that path. The point is that the extreme disparity we have in society is a risk factor which will inevitably send some people who have no protective factors over the edge.

Psychology is seldom as simple as "good people" and "bad people". There are a million and one little factors that affect every decision made by every person, and societal inequality has a big role in a lot of those factors. It's not an excuse. But it's a reason.

I think taking all of that into account is great to a point. But at some point it just becomes really, really patronizing and insulting to people in poverty. It's treating poor people like children.

I can completely understand being really afraid that the outage /emergency will go on for awhile and you need to stock up because you're worried about feeding your kids. I can understand not knowing exactly how much is on your card and going a little bit over. I could maybe even see some people buying a little better food than they usually get.

But when you have people who are clearly, deliberately, going far, far over their limit in order to exploit the situation it's obviously wrong. And to make a mountain of excuses for it is more degrading and insulting than just acknowledging it was a fucked up thing to do. While I think the people who are blaming the whole food stamp program and calling off with their heads and throw them all in jail are going far overboard and being ridiculous.....on some level their rants are slightly less marginalizing than acting like poor people as a group might as well be a bunch of slightly slow children who just don't understand the rules.

And I've been on food stamps and been really, really poor.

[flyawaystray]

Here's the thing. You ban soda, what next? milk? juice? water? tea? hot chocolate? I understand banning cigarettes and stuff like that. But I also don't think banning soda is a good idea. That's my two cents.

And yeah, I buy Coke Zero with my food stamps but I also buy water, waffles, cereal, Kind bars, and lots of other food.