Food stamp fiasco

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Here's the thing. You ban soda, what next? milk? juice? water? tea? hot chocolate? I understand banning cigarettes and stuff like that. But I also don't think banning soda is a good idea. That's my two cents.

And yeah, I buy Coke Zero with my food stamps but I also buy water, waffles, cereal, Kind bars, and lots of other food.

Or they could go the opposite way and ban things that are too expensive, but are healthy. No organic or natural foods. I've seen people on Facebook saying food stamps should only get you sacks of rice and beans. No perks for the poor.

[jaynie]

I think taking all of that into account is great to a point. But at some point it just becomes really, really patronizing and insulting to people in poverty. It's treating poor people like children.

I can completely understand being really afraid that the outage /emergency will go on for awhile and you need to stock up because you're worried about feeding your kids. I can understand not knowing exactly how much is on your card and going a little bit over. I could maybe even see some people buying a little better food than they usually get.

But when you have people who are clearly, deliberately, going far, far over their limit in order to exploit the situation it's obviously wrong. And to make a mountain of excuses for it is more degrading and insulting than just acknowledging it was a fucked up thing to do. While I think the people who are blaming the whole food stamp program and calling off with their heads and throw them all in jail are going far overboard and being ridiculous.....on some level their rants are slightly less marginalizing than acting like poor people as a group might as well be a bunch of slightly slow children who just don't understand the rules.

And I've been on food stamps and been really, really poor.

I do apologize for being patronising. Its something I'm working on changing. I certainly didn't mean to treat all poor people as a homogenous group. What I was intending to get across is that there are a list of risk factors for behaving a certain way, some of which are societal factors such as those I mentioned. They don't affect all people (or even most) but they do affect some, and I think its important to recognise those societal risks because that's the only way we can change things for the better. (Incidentally there are behavioural risk factors associated with all economic classes).

So I don't think "poor people as a group might as well be a bunch of slightly slow children who just don't understand the rules" so much as "poverty in combination with other environmental circumstances, life events, and learned values, increases the likelihood of a person disregarding societal norms in a particular way". The specifics of that will of course vary from person to person. Ironically the reason I made that post is that I was annoyed by people treating those who abused the system in this case like a homogenous group of "bad people who should have known better". I tend to think that's very simplistic and dismissive of the multitude of individual factors that lead a person to a particular place. Again, its not meant to be an excuse, but part of an explanation. Which is the basis of change.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Did you know food stamps are why grocery prices are so high?

thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2013/10/food-stamps-and-supermarket-prices/

[halfheartedheroine]

Did you know food stamps are why grocery prices are so high?

thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2013/10/food-stamps-and-supermarket-prices/

Okay, the number of food stamps going up and the cost of coffee may be correlated, but I don't think the ebil government sets the prices for food... but we can't go blaming large food corporations for trying to make a profit, can we? (apologies, I have absolutely minimal economics experience and know there are more subtleties to it than that)

[lilwriter85]

Or they could go the opposite way and ban things that are too expensive, but are healthy. No organic or natural foods. I've seen people on Facebook saying food stamps should only get you sacks of rice and beans. No perks for the poor.[/quote]

I have also seen and heard similar comments like that over the years. When I was in middle school in the late 90s, our school did a Thanksgiving collection drive to help a local non-profit distribute food baskets to families in need. Lists of the desired items were put up around the school. The items were stuff like mixes for rolls, gravy mixes, mashed potato mixes, cans of evaporated milk, canned vegetables, kool-aid packets and juices. I had a computer class which was held in the school library. One day, I overheard the school librarian whining about kool-aid and juice being on the list and she said that poor people shouldn't have that stuff for their kids and that it rots their teeth. I can agree that kool-aid and juice aren't' that great for teeth, but I don't think it bad for children whether they are rich, middle class or poor to have those perks once in awhile.

[flubber]

Or they could go the opposite way and ban things that are too expensive, but are healthy. No organic or natural foods. I've seen people on Facebook saying food stamps should only get you sacks of rice and beans. No perks for the poor.[/quote]

I have also seen and heard similar comments like that over the years. When I was in middle school in the late 90s, our school did a Thanksgiving collection drive to help a local non-profit distribute food baskets to families in need. Lists of the desired items were put up around the school. The items were stuff like mixes for rolls, gravy mixes, mashed potato mixes, cans of evaporated milk, canned vegetables, kool-aid packets and juices. I had a computer class which was held in the school library. One day, I overheard the school librarian whining about kool-aid and juice being on the list and she said that poor people shouldn't have that stuff for their kids and that it rots their teeth. I can agree that kool-aid and juice aren't' that great for teeth, but I don't think it bad for children whether they are rich, middle class or poor to have those perks once in awhile.

It's got to be better for them than the Kool-Aid the fundies drink that rots their brains!

[Stephanie66]

Gum and soda have ZERO nutritional value. And since when is gum a food? You chew it and spit it out.

I am not saying poor people can't have it, it just has to come out of their own money.

Food stamps say you can't buy a cooked rotisserie chicken, which is ridiculous (and, really, just punitive) but you CAN buy Bubble Yum.

It makes no sense.

[J'ean Skirt]

Trimming a lot, but it's all good stuff.

I do apologize for being patronising. Its something I'm working on changing. I certainly didn't mean to treat all poor people as a homogenous group. What I was intending to get across is that there are a list of risk factors for behaving a certain way, some of which are societal factors such as those I mentioned. They don't affect all people (or even most) but they do affect some, and I think its important to recognise those societal risks because that's the only way we can change things for the better. (Incidentally there are behavioural risk factors associated with all economic classes).

So I don't think "poor people as a group might as well be a bunch of slightly slow children who just don't understand the rules" so much as "poverty in combination with other environmental circumstances, life events, and learned values, increases the likelihood of a person disregarding societal norms in a particular way". The specifics of that will of course vary from person to person. Ironically the reason I made that post is that I was annoyed by people treating those who abused the system in this case like a homogenous group of "bad people who should have known better". I tend to think that's very simplistic and dismissive of the multitude of individual factors that lead a person to a particular place. Again, its not meant to be an excuse, but part of an explanation. Which is the basis of change.

There are long term effects of poverty in childhood that last even into adulthood.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-2 ... brain.html

And those crack babies from the 80s and 90s? The most devastating effects on their long term health? Poverty. Not cocaine addiction at birth, not exposure to stress or alcohol or smoking during gestation. Poverty.

http://articles.philly.com/2013-07-22/n ... nded-study

Stress and hunger are bad and evil. And kids deserve to eat.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I really doubt people are spending a lot of their food stamps on bubble yum.

[flyawaystray]

Gum and soda have ZERO nutritional value. And since when is gum a food? You chew it and spit it out.

I am not saying poor people can't have it, it just has to come out of their own money.

Food stamps say you can't buy a cooked rotisserie chicken, which is ridiculous (and, really, just punitive) but you CAN buy Bubble Yum.

It makes no sense.

It has been proposed to ban soda from food stamp use before. Never goes through.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/nyregion/ban-on-using-food-stamps-to-buy-soda-rejected-by-usda.html?_r=0

[GawkingToo]

Gum and soda have ZERO nutritional value. And since when is gum a food? You chew it and spit it out.

I am not saying poor people can't have it, it just has to come out of their own money.

Food stamps say you can't buy a cooked rotisserie chicken, which is ridiculous (and, really, just punitive) but you CAN buy Bubble Yum.

It makes no sense.

My knowledge of this is somewhat dated, but I worked with a population that used foodstamps (and WIC) back in 2006-2007. At least in the state I was living in at the time, the big things that food stamps couldn't buy were alcohol, cigarettes, and hot food. Hot food meant the type of pre-pepared food that you'd buy at the "fast food" areas of the supermarket. So you could buy pre-cooked, frozen chicken from the frozen food aisle, but not from the hot food section. Bakery items seemed to be exempted from this rule, as I knew of at least one mom who bought her kid's birthday cake using food stamps.

Why the line drawn at "hot food"? Well I'm guessing the idea was that food stamps weren't intended to support people eating out, like at a restaurant. But that's just speculation.

The issue with carving out categories of food people can't eat is that it quickly gets political (not to mention it adds costs to the supermarkets). For instance, back when I had that job, WIC was still highly restrictive. (It has since loosened up a lot.) At the grocery store, you could only use WIC to buy a limited number of items, like milk, cheese (select store brand cheese only), peanut butter, and maybe bread. (Not too sure about the bread.) So it was a boon to the dairy industry and to supermarkets (in terms of their house brand doing well). But it wasn't very culturally sensitive either. If you were Hispanic, a lot of your staples were left out.

And I'm willing to bet that there is a lot of political wrangling regarding what gets on the WIC list and what doesn't. Check out this site: http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/wichd/appro ... foods.shtm. Now you can apparently receive approval for things like Kosher milk and cheese; tofu and soy milk; special foods for exclusively breastfeeding women; and special selections for people without consistent access to refrigeration. I applaud all the efforts to be inclusive and responsive to different groups' needs, but imagine how much effort and wrangling must go into all this. Plus it gets so complicated that they have to put out posters and continually reeducate grocery store staff on what's allowed.

In law school, we talked about different types of efficiency. If you think of efficiency in terms of getting the most nutritional bang for your buck, then allowing soda probably isn't the most efficient way to do things. But if you factor in what's called "administrative efficiency"--that is, the cost of setting up the system, deciding on the rules, setting up systems to distribute and educate on the rules, enforcing the rules, etc., then just making rules with wide brushstrokes may be the way to do it. (Though I agree that it may be time to rethink the "no hot food" rule, if it still exists.)

[dawbs]

Gum and soda have ZERO nutritional value. And since when is gum a food? You chew it and spit it out.

I am not saying poor people can't have it, it just has to come out of their own money.

Food stamps say you can't buy a cooked rotisserie chicken, which is ridiculous (and, really, just punitive) but you CAN buy Bubble Yum.

It makes no sense.

The 'cost'--in paperwork/bureaucratic nonsense/etc of preventing, say, 1 in 10 people who actually use it for gum, from getting that 75c worth of bubble yum is going to be significantly higher than the cost of 75c. worth of Bubble Yum (and a royal PITA and expense to the store that has to figure out how to make sure it doesn't ring through)

So why put in that sort of rule? I can understand the impetus behind wanting it, but, really, I'd rather they get the $1 of taxpayer money for a 'treat' or to try to deal with their nicotine fix or whatever than spend 99c. to try to prevent it.

[already hungover]

Why the line drawn at "hot food"? Well I'm guessing the idea was that food stamps weren't intended to support people eating out, like at a restaurant. But that's just speculation.

For what it's worth, in California (and probably other states too), if you are homeless, disabled, or otherwise unable to cook for yourself or access kitchen facilities, you can use EBT at fast-food restaurants. Is it nutritionally great? No. Is it better than never getting to eat a hot meal? Definitely. I think it's a great program.

I've received food stamps a few times. Most recently I was laid off after the sequester. I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same thing if faced with the situation described in the OP. There's something about being poor and never having enough that makes some people go a little crazy the first time they're unrestricted. I think I mentioned it before, but I grew up poor and the first time I used food stamps I was an adult. It was also the first time in my life I've gone to a grocery store and been able to get anything I wanted. I cried in the frozen pizza section.

[flyawaystray]

I've been able to buy items from the prepared section, like coleslaw and macaroni salad. But that was only once, I can't eat either (food allergies), it was for a bbq. At Whole Foods, I get items from the cold bar. I don't go very often to WF because it is expensive, and I don't buy a lot when I go there.

[Stephanie66]

I've been able to buy items from the prepared section, like coleslaw and macaroni salad. But that was only once, I can't eat either (food allergies), it was for a bbq. At Whole Foods, I get items from the cold bar. I don't go very often to WF because it is expensive, and I don't buy a lot when I go there.

It is my understanding you can get cold prepared foods, just not a rotisserie chicken or, in this case, warm mac and cheese from the deli.

I don't want to be the food stamp police by any means. I honestly don't care all that much. There is a food shelf here in MN that no longer hands out ramen noodles, chips or candy-only fresh, nutritious food. Lots of backblow, but I think it's a good idea. Just because people are poor, that doesn't mean they can't have corn on the cob, strawberries, and other fresh food.

[GolightlyGrrl]

The lastest issue of Rolling Stone (with Paul McCartney on the cover) has a very interesting article about food stamps. I highly recommend it.

[flyawaystray]

It is my understanding you can get cold prepared foods, just not a rotisserie chicken or, in this case, warm mac and cheese from the deli.

I don't want to be the food stamp police by any means. I honestly don't care all that much. There is a food shelf here in MN that no longer hands out ramen noodles, chips or candy-only fresh, nutritious food. Lots of backblow, but I think it's a good idea. Just because people are poor, that doesn't mean they can't have corn on the cob, strawberries, and other fresh food.

That's interesting. I certainly don't think it's a bad idea. I don't buy that much junk. Once in a while I'll buy potato chips, but I usually get real food, fruits (if they're edible, a lot of fruits at my local store go bad quickly), veg, pita bread, frozen waffles (the kind by Kashi), oatmeal, whole grain cereal, and so on.

[Stephanie66]

The backblow was (mostly) from the wealthy and well-fed, saying, "What's wrong with ramen noodles! I ate them all through college!" and "Beggars can't be choosers!"

Well, this food bank stood up and said, "Yes, beggars CAN be choosers." Plus, eating healthy food can control type 2 diabetes and actually give people the nutrition they need. Kids didn't know what *real* fruits and veggies were, only canned. That is not acceptable.

I actually buy dry beans and cook them myself, but only because it is the only way I can get reasonably priced organics. I honestly don't expect anyone else to do that.

[GawkingToo]

The backblow was (mostly) from the wealthy and well-fed, saying, "What's wrong with ramen noodles! I ate them all through college!" and "Beggars can't be choosers!"

Well, this food bank stood up and said, "Yes, beggars CAN be choosers." Plus, eating healthy food can control type 2 diabetes and actually give people the nutrition they need. Kids didn't know what *real* fruits and veggies were, only canned. That is not acceptable.

I actually buy dry beans and cook them myself, but only because it is the only way I can get reasonably priced organics. I honestly don't expect anyone else to do that.

I worked for an organization with food pantries for a bit (same job that put me in touch with folks on WIC/food stamps), and, for us at least, the foods that actually got donated the most were the unhealthy, highly processed stuff. Think 'nilla wafers (or their off-brand), the latest sugary cereal that didn't sell so well, weird flavored chips, etc. And we had to accept lots of that stuff to keep a good relationship with the donors, so we could get the good stuff every once in a while. (Keep in mind that most food shelters get a lot of their stock from corporate donations, not from canned food drives at the neighborhood schools.)

We did get some good fresh stuff from farmers in the region, but often our clients didn't know what to do with fresh vegetables and it wasn't uncommon for clients to lack kitchen facilities entirely.

Things that we got lots of requests for: Canned meat (like those canned weenies), canned fruit (we bought it cheap, but you could only buy so much), eggs (which we rarely got), bread (got lots of day-old bread). But the good stuff was expensive and less likely to be donated, unfortunately, so lots of the stuff we had to give away was the crap.

Funny thing about the bread: The local grocery store would give us tons of the bread from their organic bread line. Think of that expensive bread that's dense, whole grain, and has lots of nuts and other goodies in it. We had a whole freezer full of it and were constantly giving it away to volunteers. Actual food bank clients rarely wanted it; they wanted the super-cheap white bread. If that wasn't available they'd take the super-cheap whole wheat version. But they would rarely take the dense, nutty, organic stuff because it wasn't what they were used to. Which is all to say that sometimes there's a cultural mismatch between what you're offering people and thinking is "healthy" and what people actually want and know how to prepare and know that their kids will eat.

[flyawaystray]

Man, I would take that bread! I've made the switch to whole wheat bread for years. My dad on the other hand, prefers to buy white and thinks of whole wheat pasta and bread as icky.

Heck, I even use whole wheat flour to make a pizza crust. I guess initially, whole wheat anything will taste a little odd, but I've learned to love it.

It is good that there's healthier choices available in some places, I think that's a good way to go.

[Stephanie66]

Yeah, I agree with most of your post, Gawkingtoo. My mom and dad started a food shelf and are still very involved. (Long story short: My mom was pissed that the only food shelf put bibles and bible quote stickers on canned goods, etc. She believed strongly that people should be able to get food without being preached to. Hers is a community one, and it is now one of the bigger ones in the area. Very well funded.) ANYWAY...I sent her the article, and she said people WANT ramen noodles because they are easy to cook. She had organic spaghetti sauce sitting on the shelf for months as people took the Ragu or Prego. (They believe "organic" means "tastes nasty.") They had bags of beans sitting there until someone came in who knew what to do with them-they gave her the whole lot. Processed foods are a hit.

BUT...if people could learn how easy cooking fresh vegetables can be, they might like it. That's what this food shelf is hoping for. They are in Minneapolis, so I guess if people want junk, they can go to another one. I think that this, unfortunately, is how it is going to work out. The people who want the fresh, organic veggies and are eating that way anyway will go to the "fresh" food bank, the people who probably need it will go to a different one.

[GawkingToo]

BUT...if people could learn how easy cooking fresh vegetables can be, they might like it. That's what this food shelf is hoping for.

Agreed. Occasionally, when we had fresh produce donations that we knew weren't going to be a hit, some volunteers would set up a card table with an electric burner and have a demonstration dish going, and then they passed out a recipe with the food. I think I remember they doing that with heads of red cabbage once. The clients would generally be willing to try the samples and were more likely to take the produce home with them if you did this, but you could tell that they were skeptical. (I kind of think they were sometimes just taking the food to be polite.) It probably would help if food pantries could offer that type of thing on a regular basis. (Especially if the volunteers making the samples and recipes were from the same culture as the clients and could prepare dishes that weren't too far from what the clients were familiar with.)

[Stephanie66]

The lastest issue of Rolling Stone (with Paul McCartney on the cover) has a very interesting article about food stamps. I highly recommend it.

I am only seeing one with the Walking Dead on the cover. Do you know which date is on it? (Miley was last week)

Never mind. I should get it on my Kindle tomorrow or Friday. Thanks!

[dawbs]

Man, I would take that bread! I've made the switch to whole wheat bread for years. My dad on the other hand, prefers to buy white and thinks of whole wheat pasta and bread as icky.

Heck, I even use whole wheat flour to make a pizza crust. I guess initially, whole wheat anything will taste a little odd, but I've learned to love it.

It is good that there's healthier choices available in some places, I think that's a good way to go.

Man, the thrift store associated w/ a catholic charity locally gets donations every Friday of the old bread fro one of the BEST local bakeries.

I always feel a touch bad when I am in there buying books and they offer me a loaf and I take it, because, really, I am to cheap to buy his bread normally, I buy cheaper stuff--but realistically, they want it to go to good use and my kid gets excellent bread that week (and they generally have to much to give away over the weekend before it goes bad, so they DO want people to take it)

(I try to balance it out karmically by giving the amt. I'd save on bread in GCs to the local food pantry,. Which reminds me that I owe them a donation)

[doggie]

the interesting followup with this. it is good people are not getting away with it. tax payers won't get charged.

EBT Free-for-all May Come at a High Price

Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/11/bobby ... kuMEwgD.99

but look what walmart did even though they chose to let this happen looks like the employee's paid the price

http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/11/remem ... paid-bill/

I just read your write up on the Louisiana EBT fiasco. I happen to live in northwest Louisiana, where the no-limit food stamp shopping sprees occurred at several local Wal-mart supercenters.

I also work for Walmart in the same market where the shelf clearing, free-for-all occurred.

While you mentioned that yes, the tax payers are not having to foot the bill for this “act of theftâ€, let me tell you who paid to cover Walmart’s gigantic loss: Walmart employees!!!!!!! How you ask? By major cuts in payroll hours across this market area.

About 3 days after the story broke in the news, hours began being cut by a verbal request from management to associates to go home early. Soon after that signs went up by the time clock telling associates to recheck their schedules, as changes had been made. A few days later, the next sign that went up. It said, “if you are not scheduled, SEE MANAGEMENT BEFORE OVERIDING and clocking in.†In other words, we’ll decide who we want to be here today and who we want to go home on a daily basis.

The next cut came in the next posted schedule. Many associates, including myself had no hours, but many came to work anyway. The next week, people were cut to 32 to 35 (full time employees). Not so sure about part time and temps. Signs are still posted by time clock as of 3pm today saying check with management before clocking in if not scheduled. Never in my [redacted to protect privacy] years of service have I seen that sign until this EBT thing.

No salaried managers, whether directly involved in the bad decision or not, were affected with pay cuts. Just hourly associates.

I’m sure if you were to contact those in charge of this decision to outright steal from the employees, you would receive a completely different explanation for the payroll cut. It would go something like, “low sales …blah blah blah…over budget on supplies…slow shopping season, etc etc etc.†But what I’m telling you is the truth. Ask the employees of this market. Ask any employee who has been with this company 5 or more years, and they will all tell you the exact same thing. We’ve overheard it from our managers, and yes, it’s spiraled through the rumor mill, but it’s the simple truth.

I choose to remain anonymous in order to protect my ability to put food on my table and keep the lights on for me and my family, as jobs in my community are few and far between.

Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/11/remem ... PwkV8yv.99