Fucking Cowards Leave Tracts on Yom Kippur

[formergothardite]

Oh, and theologygeek, Jews have suffered great persecution throughout the centuries, so it is a big deal to try and convert them when they don't want to be converted, you moron. For being much older than me, you seem to have no respect other than people who're Christian pro-life. You're a troll. Go on, Ms. Call me out.

I don't think she is a troll, but I think she is just living in a bubble of Christian privilege.

[Anxious Girl]

How does this, a quote by 4M's:

Nobody is forcing you to go door to door to complete strangers for candy. You could just throw the tracts away but if the mere presence of a tract within 3 feet of you or your child will make you break out in hives then stay home. Damn.

Not like theologygeek's post, which is this?:

Do you suffer from anger issues? lol Just kidding around. Well, sort of. It's no big deal, and certainly nothing to stay angry at for an hour. Just throw the material out if you don't want it.

How come 4M's considered a troll, but theologygeek isn't?

[GeoBQn]

I just talked with the rabbi. There was a local police officer posted at the synagogue (I don't recall seeing one, but it was dark). After the tracts were left on Rosh Hashanah, the rabbi contacted the police and specifically asked that whoever was on duty to guard the synagogue for Yom Kippur please stop the tracts from being left again. That officer, for some reason, failed to stop it.

[formergothardite]

How does this, a quote by 4M's:

Not like theologygeek's post, which is this?:

How come 4M's considered a troll, but theologygeek isn't?

That's true. I guess because she has been a member a long time I have a tendency to give her more of a benefit of a doubt. 4M's also went fucking crazy and said women should die instead of having abortions because that is what God wanted after that thread.

[slickcat79]

How does this, a quote by 4M's:

Not like theologygeek's post, which is this?:

How come 4M's considered a troll, but theologygeek isn't?

Not that I think you actually care one way or another, but IMO it has to do with longevity and posting history. Theologygeek has made many posts in the past that are on-topic to the discussion at hand, in general keeping with the ideas of the board, and found points of agreement with other posters in a way that 4M has rarely (if ever) done.

That being said, if theologygeek might consider some respect for other people's emotional responses, especially as one who claims to "cringe" and feel uncomfortable by even hearing a doctrine she doesn't agree with. Because you could, you know, just not listen.

[Angharad Crewe]

Over zealous fundamentalists don't realize that they are being rude because to them, their faith is absolute truth. I have encountered many Christian fundies trying to convert me, most of them within my own family. I can't feel angry towards the individual telling me to accept Christ because that is as integral a part of who they are as my rejection of organized religion is to me. (Although, I do get upset about certain verses that my fundie relatives discuss. Deuteronomy 7 in particular is fucked up no matter how you try to pretty it up with twisted logic .) It's important to me to stay close with my family, so I more or less say something diplomatic and try to steer the conversation away from Jesus or how über special it is to be Christian.

So I guess I understand theologygeek's dismissal of the OP's response (?) because I have had to learn to not get emotional and upset about people trying to convert me all the time. For me, throwing out a flier from a stranger is a lot easier than being guilt tripped by a family member for an hour. That said, I don't feel like my family is attacking an integral and sacred part of who I am, and when they have said things that are offensive in that regard, I do feel pretty angry about it.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The material they give out gives false information about the medical and emotional risks of abortion, and the advertising uses loaded language that isn't in line with Jewish law (how can you "save the life of a child in Israel" if a fetus isn't legally a person according to Halakhah?). Efrat representatives have been known to get personally involved to try to convince women not to abort, including cases of teen pregnancy and medically dangerous pregnancies. Some have also claimed that Efrat members will protest outside of offices where the abortion permits are issued, or run fake clinics based on the ones in America. They were criticized last year for convincing a teen girl not to abort, then later the boyfriend was shot and killed by police as he tried to commit a murder suicide with the girlfriend. (Clearly, the boyfriend had violent tendencies and issues that weren't caused by the organization, but Efrat should not be getting involved in personal, possibly volatile situations.)

You can either post a reply here or PM me, but I'd really appreciate any details that you have.

Efrat has support from some people at my synagogue, and the rep has spoken there more than once. Part of the pitch was a very explicit statement that they do NOT harass pregnant women or do protests or do political lobbying, but just offer services to women who are referred to them by social workers.

Personally, I don't have an issue with their "save a life" language, but I would have a very serious issue with medical misinformation, harassment or protests. If this is happening, I'd want to have some solid proof to confront the representative and the organization's supporters.

I also want to clarify that I, personally, see a big difference between getting "personally" involved with women who have indicated that they are only reluctantly seeking abortions because of practical issues and offering them support, vs. approaching/harassing pregnant women who don't want this sort of contact. I remember we discussed that case with the teen girl on FJ last year. From what I read, Efrat denied that any of their official volunteers approached the girl. I remember that the boyfriend's mother tried to blame Efrat for the death, when in fact SHE had put some heavy pressure on the couple for the girl to abort and was then pissed when the girl decided to keep the pregnancy. Her son was killed because he threatened to kill his girlfriend, period. I don't give a shit about his mother's feelings about the pregnancy - it wasn't her body, it wasn't her decision - so I don't care what complaints she had about Efrat. If the girl herself, or any other pregnant woman, says that they were approached and harassed, that's a different story

ETA: This is what they say about their services on their websites:

http://www.friendsofefrat.org/efrat.php

http://www.efrat.org.il/english/about/?id=67

If they were supporting protesters, that would be a MAJOR breach of what they are telling supporters. That's why I'd want to have something solid, and not just "some claim", because if it's true, it's a big deal.

[Arete]

That's true. I guess because she has been a member a long time I have a tendency to give her more of a benefit of a doubt. 4M's also went fucking crazy and said women should die instead of having abortions because that is what God wanted after that thread.

AG,

4M is considered a troll because she is a trolling troll who trolls. That particular quote of hers you pulled is actually a reasonable point of view whether you actually agree with it or not. But I suspect you knew that and wanted to selectively use one of her rare reasonable utterances to make your case.

You may not like theologygeek's point of view, but as has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions that you conveniently ignore, trolling does not equal "point of view I do not agree with".

[formergothardite]

I think that both 4M's and TG said those statements because they live in a bubble of Christian privilege and they don't understand(or understand but just don't care) how offensive these actions are to others. 4M, instead of behaving like a mature adult, just went into actual trolling mode and started saying stuff just to see how offensive she could be. But that original statement by itself wasn't trolling.

[GeoBQn]

You can either post a reply here or PM me, but I'd really appreciate any details that you have.

Efrat has support from some people at my synagogue, and the rep has spoken there more than once. Part of the pitch was a very explicit statement that they do NOT harass pregnant women or do protests or do political lobbying, but just offer services to women who are referred to them by social workers.

Personally, I don't have an issue with their "save a life" language, but I would have a very serious issue with medical misinformation, harassment or protests. If this is happening, I'd want to have some solid proof to confront the representative and the organization's supporters.

I also want to clarify that I, personally, see a big difference between getting "personally" involved with women who have indicated that they are only reluctantly seeking abortions because of practical issues and offering them support, vs. approaching/harassing pregnant women who don't want this sort of contact. I remember we discussed that case with the teen girl on FJ last year. From what I read, Efrat denied that any of their official volunteers approached the girl. I remember that the boyfriend's mother tried to blame Efrat for the death, when in fact SHE had put some heavy pressure on the couple for the girl to abort and was then pissed when the girl decided to keep the pregnancy. Her son was killed because he threatened to kill his girlfriend, period. I don't give a shit about his mother's feelings about the pregnancy - it wasn't her body, it wasn't her decision - so I don't care what complaints she had about Efrat. If the girl herself, or any other pregnant woman, says that they were approached and harassed, that's a different story

ETA: This is what they say about their services on their websites:

http://www.friendsofefrat.org/efrat.php

http://www.efrat.org.il/english/about/?id=67

If they were supporting protesters, that would be a MAJOR breach of what they are telling supporters. That's why I'd want to have something solid, and not just "some claim", because if it's true, it's a big deal.

I am still trying to find information on protest and harassment. For the medical misinformation, this is a page on their website in which they claim that having an abortion affects a woman's ability to carry future pregnancies to term. They say it's from a "recent study," but they don't cite the study beyond the name of the article and medical journal.

efrat.org.il/english/considering-abortion/?id=73

Here's an article that's more about the debate:

tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/72514/reconceived

But the Efrat approach is a hard sell, not unlike the efforts of anti-abortion groups in the United States. Images of developing fetuses line the inside of pamphlets that Efrat distributes to women who are seeking help. One cover pictures a stork dangling a blanketed baby from its beak. A question in big, black letters stands out above the bird: Mommy, why won’t you let me live?

The current director, Eli Schussheim, thinks that the Chief Rabbinate of Israel should be a part of the abortion committees that determine whether a woman can have a legal abortion--and only allow it if the mother's life is in danger.

[theologygeek]

theologygeek's a total asshole. I don't care if he/she's older than me. Between this and the pro-lifer thread, she's begining to sound like the 4m troll. I don't trust her. And Ms.Whatever can stand up for her, she's an asshole too. It's bad to live a non-pro-life philosophy, but it's ok for her friend to live a pro-life philosophy.

She's so pro-life, wishing me to turn blue in the face. What a bitch. If I get an abortion, it'll probably hurt her fee-fees, but it's totally ok to leave Christian propaganda at a Jewish person's place of worship! Again, what a little bitch.

I'm not pro life. shrug Other people in that thread also told you that you were giving pro choicers a bad name. And if you're going to label me something, get it right. I'm the Encyclopedia of Zsu, thankyouverymuch I don't like you, but since you never did tell me how old you were, I can't rip you a new one if you're still a kid.

[theologygeek]

I don't think she is a troll, but I think she is just living in a bubble of Christian privilege.

More like a church-less Catholic who hasn't been for a while now. But I'm coming close to returning. I really like this pope and what he had to say regarding the pedophile priests scandal. I'm certainly not living in a bubble. The things I see in volunteer work are enough to make one cringe. Privilege, well, everything I made was from my own sweat after my divorce. There are worse things to get angry over. Tracts aren't one of them. I really don't think it's a big deal. I embrace all beliefs as long as people aren't being abused mentally or physically, and as long as no one is preaching hate. A little religious tolerance goes a long way.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Thanks, GeoBGn.

I've spent the past half hour googling stuff, and just have more questions than answers about Efrat.

I know that everything I post will come across as nit-picking. I'm not necessarily trying to change anyone else's views - I'm trying to clarify my own. In the past, I've written things in support of this group, based on what they said they were about. I'm trying to decide if I still support them, or if I need to denounce them for misleading supporters.

I assume that Efrat doesn't like abortion and sees preventing an abortion as "saving a life". What concerns me is the methods used. If Efrat truly focuses on only providing support to those who want it, then I think it should be a model for other "pro-life" groups and an example of how providing actual help does far more than shaming and harassing women and limiting their legal choices.

I saw allegations of "brainwashing" and "emotional manipulation", but no real details when it comes to their actual counseling. Again, if they are providing services to women who WANT counseling and support, I have no issue, but harassment is another story.

I found quite a bit on the Raz Attias shooting. His mother is a piece of work. She's blaming a 17 yr old girl for changing her mind about having an abortion, and saying that she was the cause of the tragedy. Pot, meet kettle. She's complaining about Efrat supposedly being in the hospital and speaking to the girl (which the organization denies), but she insisted on coming into the girl's hospital room when she found out that her son was going, and she admits that she was pushing abortion. http://www.timesofisrael.com/mother-of- ... ons-death/

Even if the allegation that a 17 yr old was counseled without the consent of her parents is true - is that a bad thing? I don't know the law in Israel on this point. I do know that where I live, it would be perfectly legal and parents have no right to the medical information of children 16 and over. I also know that I'm a STRONG advocate of limiting parental authority over the reproductive decisions of children. I believe that organizations like Planned Parenthood, and local public health clinics, need to have the ability to provide confidential services to teens. So, how can I have a problem with an organization providing support to a teen who may not want an abortion, but fears family pressure to do so?

I saw the founder's comment about having the rabbinate involved with abortion committees, but I couldn't tell if he was giving his personal view, or if the organization was actually lobbying for this. Again, it may sound like nit-picking, but the organization says that it's not into lobbying or limiting women's right to choose so using the organization for this purpose would be a big deal to me.

[stonefruit]

More like a church-less Catholic who hasn't been for a while now. But I'm coming close to returning. I really like this pope and what he had to say regarding the pedophile priests scandal. I'm certainly not living in a bubble. The things I see in volunteer work are enough to make one cringe. Privilege, well, everything I made was from my own sweat after my divorce. There are worse things to get angry over. Tracts aren't one of them. I really don't think it's a big deal. I embrace all beliefs as long as people aren't being abused mentally or physically, and as long as no one is preaching hate. A little religious tolerance goes a long way.

Wow, you really, really don't get it. My religious tolerance ends when your religion starts interfering with my own.

Seriously, what part of "if you're not part of the group that feels offended by an action, don't tell that group how to feel about said action" don't you understand?

[formergothardite]

More like a church-less Catholic who hasn't been for a while now. But I'm coming close to returning. I really like this pope and what he had to say regarding the pedophile priests scandal. I'm certainly not living in a bubble. The things I see in volunteer work are enough to make one cringe. Privilege, well, everything I made was from my own sweat after my divorce. There are worse things to get angry over. Tracts aren't one of them. I really don't think it's a big deal. I embrace all beliefs as long as people aren't being abused mentally or physically, and as long as no one is preaching hate. A little religious tolerance goes a long way.

Your Christian privilege is showing.

And really, leaving tracts in cars during an important holiday telling the people they are all wrong and trying to convert them to another religion is hateful.

[RosyDaisy]

I think it is a big deal because it shows the utter lack of respect and the complete arrogance of these people. That is a dangerous combination, especially considering the ignorance that goes with it. If a bunch of Jews put some "Jesus is a false messiah" tracts on these people's cars we would have a war on our hands. I just hate these people!

Anybody would have the right to be angry and offended if something like that happened at their place of worship.

[theologygeek]

Wow, you really, really don't get it. My religious tolerance ends when your religion starts interfering with my own.

And that's where we differ. Mine doesn't. Also, how does a tract interfere with your religion? It's just a piece of paper. Maybe it's a regional thing, but where I am, no one really cares. Muslims hand out materials at the community colleges, people knock on doors, tracts go on cars at churches. My favorite are the Moonies in NYC. We learn early on to either smile and say "No thank you" or throw the stuff out.

[theologygeek]

Your Christian privilege is showing.

And really, leaving tracts in cars during an important holiday telling the people they are all wrong and trying to convert them to another religion is hateful.

You're confusing Christian privilege with indifference. People don't care around here. We're used to it. See above post.

[nelliebelle1197]

You're confusing Christian privilege with indifference. People don't care around here. We're used to it. See above post.

You really don't get it at all. Those last two statements pretty much prove you lack an abundance of critical thinking skills, empathy and insight. It's pretty hilarious you think you are speaking for the New York Jewish community. Just because something doesn't bother you, that does not mean it does not bother other people. And that is okay. It is a lesson I am teaching my two year old and it would benefit you to learn it.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Theologygeek:

Religious tolerance??

I don't see anything particularly tolerant about leaving tracts deliberately targeting another religious group at their place of worship on their holiest day.

Now, if they were preaching in a public place, I'd say that their freedom of speech should be protected, even if I find the message to be obnoxious. In this case, though, it wasn't public property - it was the parking lot of a synagogue. Whoever did this had no right to be there, and the synagogue would have had every right to kick them off the property.

Are there things that would annoy me more than this? Sure - I've spent more than an hour being upset by the antics of the Quebec government and the comments about Miss America on Fox News and the fact that xenophobia seems to be going mainstream. That doesn't mean that this is NOT annoying. If this happened at my synagogue, I'd also be wondering about the lack of security and have some very real safety concerns as a result.

[OkToBeTakei]

Theologygeek:

Religious tolerance??

I don't see anything particularly tolerant about leaving tracts deliberately targeting another religious group at their place of worship on their holiest day.

Now, if they were preaching in a public place, I'd say that their freedom of speech should be protected, even if I find the message to be obnoxious. In this case, though, it wasn't public property - it was the parking lot of a synagogue. Whoever did this had no right to be there, and the synagogue would have had every right to kick them off the property.

Are there things that would annoy me more than this? Sure - I've spent more than an hour being upset by the antics of the Quebec government and the comments about Miss America on Fox News and the fact that xenophobia seems to be going mainstream. That doesn't mean that this is NOT annoying. If this happened at my synagogue, I'd also be wondering about the lack of security and have some very real safety concerns as a result.

Legally?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Legally?

[usual disclaimer that I'm not providing professional legal advice over the internet and please consult a local lawyer for any legal issues.]

It's private property, so why not? Whoever did this had no legitimate reason to be on the property and their actions were bothering those who did have a reason to be there.

[formergothardite]

You're confusing Christian privilege with indifference. People don't care around here. We're used to it. See above post.

Nope. Meant Christian privilege. You have the privilege of your beliefs pretty much lining up with the majority in this country, even if you did leave the church for awhile. You don't know what it is like to be a minority religion that has been persecuted and people still in this day and age say things like "Jew them down" or talk about Jewish conspiracies where they are really running things and scamming all the other non-Jews. You are privileged that you can say that you wouldn't care because you will most likely never understand what it is like to be Jewish and have someone do this to you.

I am privileged that I don't know what these things are like either, but I also realize that even though I personally wouldn't be that insulted if somebody stuck a tract in my if I attended some atheist event, but at the same time I realize that I don't have the history that Jewish people do so I can't really say that I wouldn't care if I was in their situation. Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. But it was a massively assholish thing to do and they have every right to their feelings over it.

[cindyluvs24]

Not to mention that they're trespassing on private property. They just don't get it.

[Arete]

[usual disclaimer that I'm not providing professional legal advice over the internet and please consult a local lawyer for any legal issues.]

It's private property, so why not? Whoever did this had no legitimate reason to be on the property and their actions were bothering those who did have a reason to be there.

OKTBT,

Houses of worship are not considered places of public accommodation in the US, like a supermarket or a restaurant are. They definitely have a legal right to eject trespassers from their property. Our church parking lot even has a permanent warning sign to keep off people who would leave flyers for something as innocuous as a garage sale on the cars while they are parked for services. And yes, there have been instances where people have been caught in the act and warned off with the threat of the police.