Fucking Cowards Leave Tracts on Yom Kippur

[flyawaystray]

That happened to my friend. She lives two towns over, in an Orthodox neighborhood. She gets tracts that have been placed in the cracks of her front door.

[theologygeek]

It's stupid behaviour. I have experienced something similar - coming out of the Easter Vigil Mass to find that people are either handing out Chick tracts outside the church or they have put them under the windscreen wipers of the cars in the car park (I don't drive, I ended up with three in my bike's basket).

The person who handed me one outside church got it handed straight back with "I've read that one, do you have any others?" the look on his face made me laugh out loud.

My sister had me in tears one Easter. She said with a sense of urgency "I'd love to chat, but I'm pressed for time. If I don't email the novena to 100 people by 12, I will get bad luck!" I died laughing.

[GeoBQn]

Do you suffer from anger issues? lol Just kidding around. Well, sort of. It's no big deal, and certainly nothing to stay angry at for an hour. Just throw the material out if you don't want it.

I'm on the board of directors for a family planning clinic, and I consider the synagogue to be one of my safe places. Seeing that material in the building felt like a major violation of two things I care deeply about and I think I have a right to be upset about that, though I was exaggerating about the "hour" part.

[Chicken bones]

My mother's large church (along with many others here) also uses tickets on the big holidays. They are free, but you have to reserve them in advance; it seems to be a more efficient way of dealing with the overflow of worshippers. There are several extra "seatings" to handle the larger crowds on Easter, Christmas, etc.

[Arete]

A priest at a parish I used to go to learned manipulation at his Greek grandma's knee. :P He would always tell the overflow crowds on the big holidays that it was wonderful to be able to see some them once or twice a year, and that they were in people's prayers whether they came once a week or once a year. This had the effect of cracking wallets wide open, and the holidays were big money makers at this parish. Amazing how not preaching hellfire and damnation reflects on the ability of the church to stay solvent. :whistle:

As to the anger question, it really is a big deal. I have had Chick tracts left on my windshield and taped to my dorm door in college. Our community was targeted for conversion by JWs. It is really.....violating. If I feel that way and I am a Christian, I can barely imagine how violating it must be to be a Jew, a Muslim, or any other non Christian group targeted by proselytizers. You are essentially being told that a key part of your very identity is wrong, evil, or both. You are going to get angry.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The armed guards part is because any large gathering of Jews poses special security/terrorism concerns; they're not just there as bouncers to keep out people without tickets. Even at the very small service I went to, there was a uniformed police officer at the door the entire time and my bag was searched before I was allowed in. My mom was telling me at her (much larger) synagogue, there were multiple police officers and they were doing bag checks there too. She said said this year they were checking people's photo IDs, too. She said an old lady arrived with a ticket but not a photo ID and she wasn't let in until someone vouched for her. I don't know if the situation in Syria has people extra nervous, but that was a lot of precautions even for my mom's congregation.

The tickets, though, I'm against. I think it just kind of reinforces bad stereotypes and I'm always embarrassed when I have to explain the practice to non-Jews.

Guards, unfortunately, are standard due to security concerns.

Re tickets: There are some synagogues which specifically have a policy of NOT requiring tickets for entry. Chabad, a Hasidic group well-known for outreach to all Jews, is like this. At my Chabad synagogue, members reserve seats and your seat has a label with your name, but they still have an open-door policy. It sometimes means that you have to ask someone for your seat back, but they want to ensure that nobody who wants to pray will be turned away.

We have a friend who is a Russian Jew. He told us the story of how he was turned away from a synagogue on his first High Holidays in Canada, because he had no idea about getting tickets, and how this made him feel. Although he's not particularly religious, he did have a soft spot for the Russian Chabad synagogue near us, because they let everyone in. [Chabad does auction off honors during the service - you pay after the holiday - and they also get to know who comes to their services and solicit donations. In my area, they've been very successful because (1) people like my Russian friend don't stay poor immigrants forever, and once they are successful they tend to remember who treated them nicely and who didn't, and (2) people donate to them not just to keep their own synagogue going, but also because they see it as a service to those who otherwise wouldn't have a synagogue to attend.

[nelliebelle1197]

I'm on the board of directors for a family planning clinic, and I consider the synagogue to be one of my safe places. Seeing that material in the building felt like a major violation of two things I care deeply about and I think I have a right to be upset about that, though I was exaggerating about the "hour" part.

I think it is a big deal because it shows the utter lack of respect and the complete arrogance of these people. That is a dangerous combination, especially considering the ignorance that goes with it. If a bunch of Jews put some "Jesus is a false messiah" tracts on these people's cars we would have a war on our hands. I just hate these people!

[2xx1xy1JD]

Slightly OT, but does Efrat do active anti-choice activities, or just provide services to Israeli women who would otherwise seek an abortion?

I've heard an Efrat representative speak before, and he made it seem like they were mainly about the services. If that wasn't the case and they were doing active harassment or anti-choice lobbying, I'd like to have that information the next time that they come by.

[rward]

Do you suffer from anger issues? lol Just kidding around. Well, sort of. It's no big deal, and certainly nothing to stay angry at for an hour. Just throw the material out if you don't want it.

Sure, it's totes cool to disrespect the Jewish faith on the High Holy Days. Just ignore it! If you don't ignore this violation, you must be overly emotional. :angry-banghead:

[Ralar]

a Jewish non-prophet

\

Awesome typo or autocorrect!

[GeoBQn]

Slightly OT, but does Efrat do active anti-choice activities, or just provide services to Israeli women who would otherwise seek an abortion?

I've heard an Efrat representative speak before, and he made it seem like they were mainly about the services. If that wasn't the case and they were doing active harassment or anti-choice lobbying, I'd like to have that information the next time that they come by.

The material they give out gives false information about the medical and emotional risks of abortion, and the advertising uses loaded language that isn't in line with Jewish law (how can you "save the life of a child in Israel" if a fetus isn't legally a person according to Halakhah?). Efrat representatives have been known to get personally involved to try to convince women not to abort, including cases of teen pregnancy and medically dangerous pregnancies. Some have also claimed that Efrat members will protest outside of offices where the abortion permits are issued, or run fake clinics based on the ones in America. They were criticized last year for convincing a teen girl not to abort, then later the boyfriend was shot and killed by police as he tried to commit a murder suicide with the girlfriend. (Clearly, the boyfriend had violent tendencies and issues that weren't caused by the organization, but Efrat should not be getting involved in personal, possibly volatile situations.)

[GawkingToo]

I ended up attending a nice Reconstructionist service that was very welcoming, even though I had no advance reservations and was only able to contribute a quarter of their requested donation. To those of us who have a more ambivalent and/or estranged relationship with the Jewish community, yes, we might be nothing better than space-taking leeches on the High Holy Days (especially if we're poor), but the High Holy Days are often among our few remaining connections to Jewish life. I'm glad I stumbled upon that Reconstrctionist service. It was a lot more fulfilling than any service I'd attended in years, and, who knows, maybe one of these days I'll be able to pay their full fee. They told me I'd be welcome at any of their other services and activities and that they don't turn anyone away for lack of money. For once, I ended the High Holy Days feeling considerably less ambivalent and instead inspired about participating in a congregation during the year. I think Chabad was on to something and I'm glad other congregations have begun to adopt a similar philosophy.

Re tickets: There are some synagogues which specifically have a policy of NOT requiring tickets for entry. Chabad, a Hasidic group well-known for outreach to all Jews, is like this. At my Chabad synagogue, members reserve seats and your seat has a label with your name, but they still have an open-door policy. It sometimes means that you have to ask someone for your seat back, but they want to ensure that nobody who wants to pray will be turned away.

[...]

In my area, they've been very successful because (1) people like my Russian friend don't stay poor immigrants forever, and once they are successful they tend to remember who treated them nicely and who didn't, and (2) people donate to them not just to keep their own synagogue going, but also because they see it as a service to those who otherwise wouldn't have a synagogue to attend.

[stonefruit]

Do you suffer from anger issues? lol Just kidding around. Well, sort of. It's no big deal, and certainly nothing to stay angry at for an hour. Just throw the material out if you don't want it.

How nice for you that you can just write this off with "lol Just kidding around." It's a big deal, it's disrespectful, and if you're not Jewish, I frankly am completely uninterested in your admonitions to chill out. You don't get to decide what's offensive to a group you aren't a part of.

[canbritam]

I would be just as livid if someone dis this to us during Eid services. These people are so arrogant and selfish that they probably don't realize that what they're doing I more than likely just going to get them the opposite reaction that they are looking for - a general, overall loathing of Christians and Christianity.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I ended up attending a nice Reconstructionist service that was very welcoming, even though I had no advance reservations and was only able to contribute a quarter of their requested donation. To those of us who have a more ambivalent and/or estranged relationship with the Jewish community, yes, we might be nothing better than space-taking leeches on the High Holy Days (especially if we're poor), but the High Holy Days are often among our few remaining connections to Jewish life. I'm glad I stumbled upon that Reconstrctionist service. It was a lot more fulfilling than any service I'd attended in years, and, who knows, maybe one of these days I'll be able to pay their full fee. They told me I'd be welcome at any of their other services and activities and that they don't turn anyone away for lack of money. For once, I ended the High Holy Days feeling considerably less ambivalent and instead inspired about participating in a congregation during the year. I think Chabad was on to something and I'm glad other congregations have begun to adopt a similar philosophy.

Glad to hear about the welcoming Reconstructionist service.

I think that one of the more positive effects of Chabad is to force other movements to become more engaged, simply by providing competition.

We're seeing that local Conservative synagogues here are ditching old rabbis and actively recruiting ones who are more dynamic and welcoming, and the Reform movement is looking to restructure their whole approach to Bar/Bat Mitzvah and realizing that you cannot build synagogues and religious schools on the basis of threatening to withhold the ceremony if someone hasn't been a member and attending school for X years.

[Coconut Flan]

Having fundie and fundie-lite neighbors is both frustrating and sometimes illuminating. They simply do not get it. They have such an attitude and directive of "saving souls" that unless it's pointedly made plain to them they have no clue how rude they are. I was recently told that a Jewish event I would be attending would be such a rich environment for "soul winning." I explained how it would be a rude, invasive, and improper thing to do and that there is no way to maintain good relationships with people while completely disrespecting their religion and situation. I also tried to make it clear that offending someone from the beginning only increases the dislike and resistance. Neighbor's response was at least you can still pray for them. :angry-banghead:

[Conuly]

With regards to temple vs. synagogue, Jewfaq.org says that when in doubt you should stick to synagogue because everybody knows what you mean, but some Orthodox Jews may be offended if you say temple and don't mean THE Temple.

http://www.jewfaq.org/m/shul.htm

[thoughtful]

Don't take this the wrong way but that doesn't sound very welcoming. What if a new Jewish family moved to town and wanted to attend services at your temple? I do agree that leaving tracts during a Yom Kippur service is disrespectful.

Not sure if you took Jana814's post to mean there are guards and tickets for every Saturday service -- it's only for the High Holidays (unless things have changed since the last time I was at a service, which was very long ago).

I think most Jews would know that just dropping in to a new shul/synagogue/temple for the High Holidays would not be a good idea, since space would be limited.

And I agree with those who are disgusted by anyone who would place tracts on cars outside of a place of worship. First of all, I generally hate finding crap on my car, doorstep, or mailbox, and knowing that trees died to advertise to me, whether it's religion or lawn mowing.

When it comes to proselytizing, I am more likely to roll my eyes than get angry if it is only myself who is affected, but I'd be bothered more by someone targeting a whole parking lot full of cars.

I like the way AreteJo said it:

You are essentially being told that a key part of your very identity is wrong, evil, or both.

I don't care how many times a proseltyzer says "We just want you to have this gift" -- the real message is "you are broken and we are not, and we want to 'fix' you."

A member of the majority religion in an area might find it easier to shrug off, but I would still be sympathetic to them if it upset them (heck, I'd be sympathetic to them even if they did shrug it off -- it's nasty).

With the added tension of being in the minority, and the further layer of knowing there have been centuries of animosity and real danger from the majority, it can be even more upsetting.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Not sure if you took Jana814's post to mean there are guards and tickets for every Saturday service -- it's only for the High Holidays (unless things have changed since the last time I was at a service, which was very long ago).

I think most Jews would know that just dropping in to a new shul/synagogue/temple for the High Holidays would not be a good idea, since space would be limited.

And I agree with those who are disgusted by anyone who would place tracts on cars outside of a place of worship. First of all, I generally hate finding crap on my car, doorstep, or mailbox, and knowing that trees died to advertise to me, whether it's religion or lawn mowing.

When it comes to proselytizing, I am more likely to roll my eyes than get angry if it is only myself who is affected, but I'd be bothered more by someone targeting a whole parking lot full of cars.

I like the way AreteJo said it:

I don't care how many times a proseltyzer says "We just want you to have this gift" -- the real message is "you are broken and we are not, and we want to 'fix' you."

A member of the majority religion in an area might find it easier to shrug off, but I would still be sympathetic to them if it upset them (heck, I'd be sympathetic to them even if they did shrug it off -- it's nasty).

With the added tension of being in the minority, and the further layer of knowing there have been centuries of animosity and real danger from the majority, it can be even more upsetting.

Re guards/security:

It really depends where you are.

Outside of North America, security is standard. I've had to show my passport to enter synagogues in Europe and Australia.

Our synagogue used to have a completely open-door policy. That changed after the Mumbai massacre. Now, there is a uniformed police officer at the door for Saturday services, and you need to punch in a security code to open the doors at other times.

Re the tracts:

I was always a bit curious about one point. I know that in Judaism, there's a high value placed on not destroying anything with holy writings in it. Does that not exist with some of these Christian groups? I know that if we received any tracts, everyone I know would tear them up. Does the idea of that happening not bother them? The same thing used to puzzle me about school prayer - I know that my friends and I didn't respect the Lord's Prayer when I was said at school, but we'd been taught all sorts of rules to ensure that certain Jewish prayers were only said with the proper respect. That was part of the reason that parents didn't want actual Jewish prayers said as any part of a public school event.

[And yes, of course giving out tracts to those who are obviously part of a different religion is obnoxious.]

[thoughtful]

Re guards/security:

It really depends where you are.

Outside of North America, security is standard. I've had to show my passport to enter synagogues in Europe and Australia.

Our synagogue used to have a completely open-door policy. That changed after the Mumbai massacre. Now, there is a uniformed police officer at the door for Saturday services, and you need to punch in a security code to open the doors at other times.

Thanks for catching me up.

But the need to have a ticket would still only apply to High Holy Days, yes? There isn't an issue with not having enough room for potential newbies every Saturday, is there?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Thanks for catching me up.

But the need to have a ticket would still only apply to High Holy Days, yes? There isn't an issue with not having enough room for potential newbies every Saturday, is there?

No, tickets are just for High Holidays. Guards are strictly for security.

My synagogue does reserved seats instead of tickets because they want an open-door policy towards the community, but they do make the kids' program by reservation only during the High Holidays. Again, it's a safety thing. With so many extra young kids around, and so many adults that wouldn't be recognized, they want a way to control access to the kids' area, to know exactly where the kids are at all times and to know exactly who is picking up a child.

[GeoBQn]

I was always a bit curious about one point. I know that in Judaism, there's a high value placed on not destroying anything with holy writings in it. Does that not exist with some of these Christian groups? I know that if we received any tracts, everyone I know would tear them up. Does the idea of that happening not bother them? The same thing used to puzzle me about school prayer - I know that my friends and I didn't respect the Lord's Prayer when I was said at school, but we'd been taught all sorts of rules to ensure that certain Jewish prayers were only said with the proper respect. That was part of the reason that parents didn't want actual Jewish prayers said as any part of a public school event.

I wondered about destroying holy writing when that high school in Texas got attention for having football players run through a butcher paper sign with a Bible quote on it. They clearly had no issues with tearing the quote to shreads--as long as it was done triumphantly?

[Anxious Girl]

theologygeek's a total asshole. I don't care if he/she's older than me. Between this and the pro-lifer thread, she's begining to sound like the 4m troll. I don't trust her. And Ms.Whatever can stand up for her, she's an asshole too. It's bad to live a non-pro-life philosophy, but it's ok for her friend to live a pro-life philosophy.

She's so pro-life, wishing me to turn blue in the face. What a bitch. If I get an abortion, it'll probably hurt her fee-fees, but it's totally ok to leave Christian propaganda at a Jewish person's place of worship! Again, what a little bitch.

[thoughtful]

No, tickets are just for High Holidays. Guards are strictly for security.

That's what I figured. I wasn't sure if Jana was thinking that only ticket-holders could get a seat on a Saturday, which I can't imagine being true anywhere.

I'm not surprised to hear that, in many places, security personnel and equipment are considered a must at all times.

[Anxious Girl]

Oh, and theologygeek, Jews have suffered great persecution throughout the centuries, so it is a big deal to try and convert them when they don't want to be converted, you moron. For being much older than me, you seem to have no respect other than people who're Christian pro-life. You're a troll. Go on, Ms. Call me out.