Fuck You, Pro-Lifers, I Have Lost Respect for You...

[formergothardite]

Seriously, what are the actual odds she is going to die from the pregnancy ? She probably runs a greater risk of death by driving over to her married lovers house to have the affair.

If I understand Theology Geek correctly, her issue is with someone purposefully taking on all the risks of pregnancy if she could manipulate the situation to her advantage, but terminating just because things aren't working out according to her plan -- I agree that if you are purposefully getting pregnant and then terminating because things aren't going the way you want, and you are physically healthy, there are financial and social supports and even a family member willing to raise the child...that is destructive behavior. I, personally, don't think that is something that can be legislated, its too vague, but I can certainly see why people who know her are upset.

The chances are probably not great, but it still is there. And an abortion, especially an early one is safer than pregnancy and childbirth. So by not allowing it you are forcing the woman to take the less safe option. Even if she got herself pregnant on purpose, she should not be denied safer medical options just to hold her accountable for her actions.

If it is destructive behavior, is forcing her to remain pregnant really going to help her at all or will it just bring an unwanted child into an already chaotic situation? From what I have read in the past, most of the time the mother keeps the child even if she originally said she didn't want it.

[Mama Mia]

Well, the poor women who can't afford abortions, the poor women who are disabled and can't afford it, the women who does not want to lose their jobs due to pregnancy, the women who do not want to bring a child conceived of rape who know they will will abuse/neglect the child because he/she reminds them so much of their rapist, the women who carry nonviable fetuses, the women who simply doesn't want to have a child and have adoption regret, and oh yeah; WOMEN WHO DON'T WANT TO BE PREGNANT! Why do women have to justify their abortions for you? Who are you to decide in what circumstances and when women can get abortions?

I was clearly talking about that particular woman and her particular situation. She wasn't raped, she and her fetus apparently were healthy, she's not disabled and she had financial and social supports available...and she had planned to get pregnant in the first place. I stated, right there, that I didn't think it was a legal issue. But yeah, I do think its a moral issue. I have opinions on all sorts of things being right or wrong, moral or immoral. Everyone does.

[Anxious Girl]

I was clearly talking about that particular woman and her particular situation. She wasn't raped, she and her fetus apparently were healthy, she's not disabled and she had financial and social supports available...and she had planned to get pregnant in the first place. I stated, right there, that I didn't think it was a legal issue. But yeah, I do think its a moral issue. I have opinions on all sorts of things being right or wrong, moral or immoral. Everyone does.

So you decide that your moral can trump womens' choice to abort? How lovely. /sarcasm :roll: You have lost respect from me. Don't like it, too bad.

[theologygeek]

So you decide that your moral can trump womens' choice to abort? How lovely. /sarcasm :roll: You have lost respect from me. Don't like it, too bad.

I don't think she cares. You are giving pro choicers a bad name with your fundie like behavior.

[J'ean Skirt]

I said "I'm not sure." I do think she should have either kept her legs closed or used birth control. She tried to break up a family, she tried to get pregnant by deceiving, she ended the pregnancy when she did get pregnant, and she broke her mother's heart. Now I hear through the grapevine that she is going out with another married man and her mother doesn't know about it. This young woman needs to be held accountable for her actions because she is taking down innocent people, including children, in her path.

Did you ever think that her getting an abortion was protecting more innocents? I mean, those kids you think she should be forced to have are also innocents. And they're people. And they're children.

They're not "consequences."

They're not "punishments."

They're not "accountability."

They're people. They're innocent people that pro-lifers want to use as punishment.

Do you really think preventing her from getting an abortion will actually change her behavior? Will she turn into an acceptable person to you? Or is it just possible that she'll continue to be irresponsible and just have yet another innocent to hurt.

[Mama Mia]

So you decide that your moral can trump womens' choice to abort? How lovely. /sarcasm :roll: You have lost respect from me. Don't like it, too bad.

Can you read ? I am really questioning your reading comprehension skills and thinking that might contribute to your generally obnoxious assertions. 1) again, I said I didn't think this particular woman's situation is something that should be legislated 2) I certainly am entitled to make any moral judgements on any issue I like. I have opinions on the morality /immorality of ....just off the top of my head....Monsanto, pharmaceutical companies, dog fighting, drones, cuts to food stamps, the olympics being held in Russia, immigration reform and probably a zillion other things. If they come up in a thread on the Internet that I'm reading, I'll probably share them, that's what Internet forums are for. Sharing opinions. 3) I think it is really amusing that you think people put so much value on whether an Internet poster respects them or not.

[Anxious Girl]

I don't think she cares. You are giving pro choicers a bad name with your fundie like behavior.

How? I'm not denying them anything or am associating with a group that denies women choice. This is simply a "no you" comeback.

[salex]

If this woman didn't want to risk her life and health by getting pregnant, then why did she try to get pregnant? She would have had the baby if her boyfriend left his wife.

It strikes me that she didn't want a baby at all, she wanted a husband and the pregnancy was, in her mind, a way to trap or lure him. She got pregnant to get the married boyfriend, not because she wanted to be pregnant or have a baby. Without the boyfriend leaving his wife and marrying her, she likely sees the bait that was the pregnancy suddenly becoming future boyfriend repellant--so the pregnancy was no longer on her list. How we feel about her logic and choices has little to do with the question of whether safe abortions should be legal.

[Blahblah]

I'm late to the party here. Is the current debate really about the reason for the pregnancy being used as the reason why an abortion should/shouldn't be allowed?

So if you get pregnant on purpose but your married lover isn't interested, and your plan failed, you can't have an abortion. But if you were raped, then that's fine?

At the end of the day the situation is the same. An unwanted pregnancy. So the issue is the same for both: should safe abortions be legal?

[Lainey]

At the end of the day the situation is the same. An unwanted pregnancy. So the issue is the same for both: should safe abortions be legal?

Yes. Well, that was easy. *wanders off to solve world hunger*

In seriousness, though, if you don't have safe, legal abortions, you get back alley butchers like when abortion was illegal. My grandma is adamantly pro-choice because she remembers the way things used to be. So you don't have to like it, but abortion needs to be legal.

[LadyBlue]

How? I'm not denying them anything or am associating with a group that denies women choice. This is simply a "no you" comeback.

How? Because you are incredibly abrasive, rude, condescending and completely unable to see shades of gray. I'm deeply pro-choice (legally, personally not so much) but you've managed to completely disgust &/or piss me off multiple times on multiple threads on this topic. If you're pissing off your own side, you're doing it wrong.

You catch more flies with honey, etc, etc.

[Blahblah]

Yes. Well, that was easy. *wanders off to solve world hunger*

In seriousness, though, if you don't have safe, legal abortions, you get back alley butchers like when abortion was illegal. My grandma is adamantly pro-choice because she remembers the way things used to be. So you don't have to like it, but abortion needs to be legal.

Just read my post again. I meant to add Of course they should be.

[Vex]

I cannot respect the opinion that women should be forced to go through with a pregnancy they do not want for any reason whatsoever.

That doesn't mean I can't respect the person who holds that view, but I certainly do not respect the idea of somebody being forced to continue a pregnancy, especially as some kind of moralistic 'punishment'. I don't think I could ever go through with an abortion unless there were severe medical complications for the fetus, but I refuse to judge women who choose to terminate.

I don't like the idea of accidental pregnancies whether they're the result of failing contraceptives, a lack of birth control or rape. In an ideal world there would be no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy.

We don't live in an ideal world, so unwanted and accidental pregnancies are going to continue to happen. I would rather a woman who doesn't have the means (emotionally, financially or otherwise) to care for a child terminate her pregnancy rather than be forced to endure a live birth and then spend the rest of her life abusing herself or worse, the child because she was traumatised by the experience.

[Patsy]

Imagine your mum needs a kidney and someone volunteers theirs. Then they change their mind. Can you force them to give it to her? No.

Never mind how shitty you might think it was that they made you hopeful, it's their legal prerogative and if you don't like it, you feel free to get cranky about it and decide it's immoral, but that has got sweet fuck all to do with their legal obligations.

Stepping out of this thread again because it's been making me huffy since the very first post.

[formergothardite]

I'm late to the party here. Is the current debate really about the reason for the pregnancy being used as the reason why an abortion should/shouldn't be allowed?

So if you get pregnant on purpose but your married lover isn't interested, and your plan failed, you can't have an abortion. But if you were raped, then that's fine?

At the end of the day the situation is the same. An unwanted pregnancy. So the issue is the same for both: should safe abortions be legal?

That summed it all up perfectly.

[Sumeri]

I'm not sure that women should always have the choice. A woman I know has a daughter who was having an affair with a married man. She was in her early twenties. She was hell bent on making him leave his wife. He thought she was on the pill. She wasn't. She thought that by getting pregnant, he would leave his wife. She got pregnant. He gave her money for an abortion, broke up with her, and made it clear that he was not going to leave his wife. The woman I know didn't want her daughter to get an abortion. She said she would raise the baby if her daughter didn't want to. The daughter got the abortion. The mother was beside herself with grief because she felt that her daughter killed her grandchild. When a baby is born, a man has to pay child support whether he wanted the baby or not. He is called scum if he is a deadbeat dad. He is told that he had no problem making the baby, and paying is the consequences of his actions. I am all for women's rights, but where does accountability come in? Why is the father told one thing and the mother is told something else? Because the mother is the one who has to go through pregnancy and labor? Shouldn't she have thought of that while she was trying to reel in a married man? Pro choice doesn't make sense to me. None of the labels do.

What?

How is your friend party to all this information? A girl in her early 20's is hell bent on destroying another woman's marriage and TELLS HER MOTHER that she got pregnant on purpose in order to trap the husband? And that's where the sympathy for the man who is cheating on his wife comes in? How about, instead, the man in question keeps it in his pants if he wants to stay with his wife?

When a baby is born, a man has to pay child support whether he wanted the baby or not. He is called scum if he is a deadbeat dad. He is told that he had no problem making the baby, and paying is the consequences of his actions

Well, this particular scummy man didn't do this. He gave her money for an abortion. And that's HER fault?

[lizziesmom]

Married men who have affairs and end up procreating are called Fathers. Fathers pay support for their children. It's really that simple.

If he did not want a baby with this woman, he could have 1)stopped seeing her 2)had a vasectomy 3)used birth control 4)stopped seeing her 5)stopped seeing her.

He gave her money to abort the baby. Are we supposed to believe that is because he didn't want to pay child support? How the heck does someone who is supposedly pro life justify the man's behavior in this scenario? :evil-eye: :angry-banghead:

[Anxious Girl]

How? Because you are incredibly abrasive, rude, condescending and completely unable to see shades of gray. I'm deeply pro-choice (legally, personally not so much) but you've managed to completely disgust &/or piss me off multiple times on multiple threads on this topic. If you're pissing off your own side, you're doing it wrong.

You catch more flies with honey, etc, etc.

There are no shades of gray when it comes to abortion. You either care about why women get abortion and determine if they're a slut based on why they got them or you don't care if they get abortions; aka pro-life and pro-choice. I don't care if I'm being rude, at least I'm not associating myself with a group of people that have included the likes of David Dewhurst and Rick Perry, people who are in positions of power who want to close down womens' health clinics based on their pro-life stances. Don't you see the difference?

[maybeizfundie]

There are no shades of gray when it comes to abortion. You either care about why women get abortion and determine if they're a slut based on why they got them or you don't care if they get abortions;

Well. You can build those rigid boxes but a lot of people won't sit in them, 'cause they don't actually fit.

[formergothardite]

Married men who have affairs and end up procreating are called Fathers. Fathers pay support for their children. It's really that simple.

If he did not want a baby with this woman, he could have 1)stopped seeing her 2)had a vasectomy 3)used birth control 4)stopped seeing her 5)stopped seeing her.

He gave her money to abort the baby. Are we supposed to believe that is because he didn't want to pay child support? How the heck does someone who is supposedly pro life justify the man's behavior in this scenario? :evil-eye: :angry-banghead:

I don't get why she is getting most of the blame either. I mean, it isn't like she is forcing these guys into this. They are willing participants. If anyone needs to be held accountable and be accused of hurting innocent people it should be the men.

[Anxious Girl]

Well. You can build those rigid boxes but a lot of people won't sit in them, 'cause they don't actually fit.

Yes they do. You're either for or against a women's choice to an abortion. I'm not sorry if I don't support pro-lifers like David Dewhurst, Todd Akin, theologygeek, and theologygeek's friend who disguise their label to take away a woman's right to choose with kindness, which is sick. Deal with the fact that I won't respect these people. After all, this is the internet, so why does it matter which people I call names and disrespect?

[Curious]

I'm just passing through this thread to say a couple things:

1. trolls are not people who post an opinion that is different from your own. The wiki definition of a troll is pretty good: ....by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[6]

Strictly speaking, the OP could be considered a trolling post, if FJ was a "normal" forum :wink-penguin:

2. Just because someone does not respond in the amount of time you think they should, does not mean the person has flounced. Some members have these mythical things called lives that I have heard about and step away from their computers from time to time, even when they are actively involved in a discussion on the forum.

This has been a non-official announcement brought to you by the number 12 and the bunny coalition :animals-bunny:

edit: coalition is different than collation :)

[maybeizfundie]

After all, this is the internet, so why does it matter which people I call names and disrespect?

You can disrespect whoever you want. I don't care. I think it's a little funny to see someone essentially being fundamentalist in their opinion about this issue in a forum dedicated to snarking on fundies. But whatever. You're right, it's the interenet, you can do that.

Because it's the internet, I can offer up a different opinion, and say that I think you're wrong. *shrug*

[Anxious Girl]

You can disrespect whoever you want. I don't care. I think it's a little funny to see someone essentially being fundamentalist in their opinion about this issue in a forum dedicated to snarking on fundies. But whatever. You're right, it's the interenet, you can do that.

Because it's the internet, I can offer up a different opinion, and say that I think you're wrong. *shrug*

I agree. Both pro-lifers and pro-choicers can have their opinion and can be fundamentalist in their opinions, but it doesn't mean that they have to respect or like or tolerate each other.

[theologygeek]

Yes they do. You're either for or against a women's choice to an abortion. I'm not sorry if I don't support pro-lifers like David Dewhurst, Todd Akin, theologygeek, and theologygeek's friend who disguise their label to take away a woman's right to choose with kindness, which is sick. Deal with the fact that I won't respect these people. After all, this is the internet, so why does it matter which people I call names and disrespect?

I'm not pro life. LOL I'm sorry, but your posts have me in stitches with the way you keep telling people to deal with the fact that you won't respect people. You say it as if they care. LOL I think you should hold your breath until you turn blue for added effect.