Fuck You, Pro-Lifers, I Have Lost Respect for You...

[formergothardite]

Wtf? One of my best friends is pro life. She's a non practicing Jew and a Democrat. She simply believes that life starts at conception and does not judge anyone who has had an abortion. How old are you? You sound like a kid.

Is she pro-life in the sense that she would vote to stop abortions or make abortions harder(think of all the laws like the heartbeat law that would not make it illegal but would make an abortion almost impossible to get)? Or is she pro-choice in her voting but just her own personal life she wouldn't have an abortion?

[sparkles]

So let me get this straight: you (theologygeek and OKTBT) are saying it's possible to be pro-life but not advocate against or try to prevent other people having abortions? So...that sounds pro-choice to me. Either you think it's okay to deny other people abortions based on your own morals or you don't...I don't see a middle ground here.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but wanted to respond to this. The term pro-life needs to be removed from any debate on reproductive choice. It has no place there whatsoever. I have NEVER met a single person on either side of that debate who is NOT pro-life, even those who believe a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy up until the moment the fetus pokes its head out of the birth canal and takes its first breath. The debate is all about life, QUALITY OF LIFE. And it's about those who believe that once a woman becomes pregnant, she forfeits her own quality of life and control over her own body because she's the carrier for a bunch of cells with the POTENTIAL for life, and those who believe the woman's right to life comes first.

Pro-life and pro-choice are not mutually exclusive, and yes, you most certainly can be both. I'm one of those people. I do strongly believe that "life"—the POTENTIAL for life—does begin at conception. I would have a very difficult time choosing to have an abortion; my list of criteria is very small. But that is MY CHOICE. And it's a choice that EVERY WOMAN has a right to make for herself. Because when life begins is not an absolute; there's no one answer. And what I believe is not what others believe and vice versa. Just as I wouldn't force my opinion (which is based on emotion, not fact) on any other woman, neither do I want the reverse. My daughter was born with a neural tube defect. What if circumstances were reversed and the law demanded that any fetus that wasn't "perfect" had to be aborted and I had no choice in the matter? It's a scenario that would horrify anti-choicers, yet this is exactly what they're trying to do to other women. Take away their bodily rights and force them into a situation that they don't want.

So please, if nothing else, let's forget about pro-life in any debate about reproductive freedom. You're either for a woman's right to her own body or you're against it. Pro-choice or anti-choice.

ETA: riffle-y shit

[walnut]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but wanted to respond to this. The term pro-life needs to be removed from any debate on reproductive choice. *snip*

End of story. :clap:

[theologygeek]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but wanted to respond to this. The term pro-life needs to be removed from any debate on reproductive choice. It has no place there whatsoever.

I've been saying that for years. I like the way this person put it. http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.actio ... 4977367323 Someone in the comments summed it up very well when he said "The terms are for propaganda use, not for rational debate. It's all part of the debasement of language that occurs when people try to force their ideas on others."

[theologygeek]

Is she pro-life in the sense that she would vote to stop abortions or make abortions harder(think of all the laws like the heartbeat law that would not make it illegal but would make an abortion almost impossible to get)? Or is she pro-choice in her voting but just her own personal life she wouldn't have an abortion?

She votes democrat. But I texted her and asked "If you had to vote on a separate issue to make abortions illegal, like they voted for Prop 8 in CA, which way would you vote?" She hasn't answered yet, probably because she thinks I'm crazy for randomly asking her that before 9am.

[pimpom]

I think a lot of it is focusing on the "cute baby". They don't want to think about what happens to the cute baby after it is born. They don't want to think about the impact forced pregnancy has on women. Just think about a cute baby and ignore all the other stuff.

The anti-choicers I know say the death penalty is okay because those "bad" people, while abortion is wrong because a fetus is innocent. Also, many of them, when it gets down to it, just want to punish the woman for having sex. You have sex so you have to suffer.

I also think being anti-abortion is a political tool as old as the world. Because what you are really saying is:

"Don't support The Others, for they kill babies."

Making a 'babykiler' out of others is the easiest and fastest way to demonize them.

[Anxious Girl]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but wanted to respond to this. The term pro-life needs to be removed from any debate on reproductive choice. It has no place there whatsoever. I have NEVER met a single person on either side of that debate who is NOT pro-life, even those who believe a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy up until the moment the fetus pokes its head out of the birth canal and takes its first breath. The debate is all about life, QUALITY OF LIFE. And it's about those who believe that once a woman becomes pregnant, she forfeits her own quality of life and control over her own body because she's the carrier for a bunch of cells with the POTENTIAL for life, and those who believe the woman's right to life comes first.

Pro-life and pro-choice are not mutually exclusive, and yes, you most certainly can be both. I'm one of those people. I do strongly believe that "life"—the POTENTIAL for life—does begin at conception. I would have a very difficult time choosing to have an abortion; my list of criteria is very small. But that is MY CHOICE. And it's a choice that EVERY WOMAN has a right to make for herself. Because when life begins is not an absolute; there's no one answer. And what I believe is not what others believe and vice versa. Just as I wouldn't force my opinion (which is based on emotion, not fact) on any other woman, neither do I want the reverse. My daughter was born with a neural tube defect. What if circumstances were reversed and the law demanded that any fetus that wasn't "perfect" had to be aborted and I had no choice in the matter? It's a scenario that would horrify anti-choicers, yet this is exactly what they're trying to do to other women. Take away their bodily rights and force them into a situation that they don't want.

So please, if nothing else, let's forget about pro-life in any debate about reproductive freedom. You're either for a woman's right to her own body or you're against it. Pro-choice or anti-choice.

ETA: riffle-y shit

This is what I was trying to say. Thanks for putting it so eloquently (sp?) :D .

[FearLyss]

This thread confuses me. If you believe woman should maintain the right to CHOOSE, regardless of what you would do, isn't that pro-choice? Pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion, it is simply advocating for a woman's right to decide what to do for herself.

Most people who identify as pro-life are against the choice (hence why anti-choice is a better term).

I typically see the gray areas in issues, but in this I struggle. Can somebody explain exactly what makes you pro-life, while agreeing it should be a choice? Do you identify with the pro-life agenda of removing or restricting that right?

Personally, I don't think I'd ever have an abortion if faced with the choice, but I would never identify with pro-lifers, because I want the right to choose, for me and other women. I identify as pro-choice because of the simple issue of CHOICE and not any feelings on when life begins or how I would decide what to do in the case of a pregnancy.

[theologygeek]

I typically see the gray areas in issues, but in this I struggle. Can somebody explain exactly what makes you pro-life, while agreeing it should be a choice?.

If you live your life by issues, you will die. Even the rent or mortgage you pay goes to banks that think nothing of throwing children out on the street and losing their home. The world is full of corrupt, greedy, and uncaring people. You are part of these groups whether you want to be or not. You are forced to be part of many groups that would shock even you. How does it make you feel to pay your water bill to a company that would withhold water from a toddler who is thirsty? How does it make you feel knowing that you are paying the President of said water company's salary so he can continue to withhold water from the poor, including children and the elderly? Or not even the poor, but the lower middle class who don't qualify for aid, but are just scraping by? http://www.rentonreporter.com/opinion/218165481.html Are you willing to boycott water to stand side by side with all the mothers in the world who can't afford to pay their water bill? Are you pro water, or pro dehydration? Many times, whatever "sides" you choose in life will be the wrong sides, and someone will get hurt because of your choices. This is the world we live in. It sucks.

[Sass]

So please, if nothing else, let's forget about pro-life in any debate about reproductive freedom.

I actually agree with this wholeheartedly.

[argypargy]

This thread confuses me. If you believe woman should maintain the right to CHOOSE, regardless of what you would do, isn't that pro-choice? Pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion, it is simply advocating for a woman's right to decide what to do for herself.

Yes. While I don't think I would ever have an abortion (unless my life were in danger) I think any woman should be able to have an abortion for any reason at any time (let's be honest; most late term abortions are done to save a life or make it so a baby doesn't have to endure a short, painful life, not because the woman goes "oh, I'm 36 weeks and I just don't want to have a baby anymore"). That makes me pro-choice.

[dairyfreelife]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but wanted to respond to this. The term pro-life needs to be removed from any debate on reproductive choice. It has no place there whatsoever. I have NEVER met a single person on either side of that debate who is NOT pro-life, even those who believe a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy up until the moment the fetus pokes its head out of the birth canal and takes its first breath. The debate is all about life, QUALITY OF LIFE. And it's about those who believe that once a woman becomes pregnant, she forfeits her own quality of life and control over her own body because she's the carrier for a bunch of cells with the POTENTIAL for life, and those who believe the woman's right to life comes first.

Pro-life and pro-choice are not mutually exclusive, and yes, you most certainly can be both. I'm one of those people. I do strongly believe that "life"—the POTENTIAL for life—does begin at conception. I would have a very difficult time choosing to have an abortion; my list of criteria is very small. But that is MY CHOICE. And it's a choice that EVERY WOMAN has a right to make for herself. Because when life begins is not an absolute; there's no one answer. And what I believe is not what others believe and vice versa. Just as I wouldn't force my opinion (which is based on emotion, not fact) on any other woman, neither do I want the reverse. My daughter was born with a neural tube defect. What if circumstances were reversed and the law demanded that any fetus that wasn't "perfect" had to be aborted and I had no choice in the matter? It's a scenario that would horrify anti-choicers, yet this is exactly what they're trying to do to other women. Take away their bodily rights and force them into a situation that they don't want.

So please, if nothing else, let's forget about pro-life in any debate about reproductive freedom. You're either for a woman's right to her own body or you're against it. Pro-choice or anti-choice.

ETA: riffle-y shit

Agree and I've said similar before. There are a limited number of reasons that I would abort such as rape, serious fetal abnormality or serious threat to my life (early on). I'd love to be a mother one day. I want children. I want to be a parent. I am willing to risk my health and even my life to bring a child into the world. That's MY choice and MY decision. I don't like abortion. Who does? It's not a spa day, it's medication and even surgery. It's not some brag right anti-choicers think it is. In a perfect world no one would ever feel the need for an abortion, but women need abortions. There's no way to know why they are choosing abortions, but I guarantee most making in the decision are not in a good position to bring another child into the world. Every woman has the right to decide if she is able to care for a child and every woman has the right to decide if she's willing to risk her life to give someone else a chance at life. Her body is hers to decide. I'm on the pro-choice side for that reason and anti-choicers don't see women as having bodily autonomy and bodily rights, but I'm very pro-life because I care about ALL life, which is why I hate the term pro-life for anti-choicers (all life minus the most dangerous people like serial killers and rapists, mass murderers, dangerous leaders calling for deaths of harmless citizens and harmless people in other nations, dangerous cult leaders and pedophiles-they can all go crawl into a dark hole where I hope they all die a miserable, agonizing death-that is all).

[FearLyss]

If you live your life by issues, you will die. Even the rent or mortgage you pay goes to banks that think nothing of throwing children out on the street and losing their home. The world is full of corrupt, greedy, and uncaring people. You are part of these groups whether you want to be or not. You are forced to be part of many groups that would shock even you. How does it make you feel to pay your water bill to a company that would withhold water from a toddler who is thirsty? How does it make you feel knowing that you are paying the President of said water company's salary so he can continue to withhold water from the poor, including children and the elderly? Or not even the poor, but the lower middle class who don't qualify for aid, but are just scraping by? http://www.rentonreporter.com/opinion/218165481.html Are you willing to boycott water to stand side by side with all the mothers in the world who can't afford to pay their water bill? Are you pro water, or pro dehydration? Many times, whatever "sides" you choose in life will be the wrong sides, and someone will get hurt because of your choices. This is the world we live in. It sucks.

I *think* I get what you are saying, but, we are not discussing a group of people who choose not to idenitfy themselves either way. I get that AND I can respect that as long as they are thoughful about it. What does confuse me is that people ARE identifying with a side they don't seem to belong to (in my opinion).

I would be fine if people felt they didn't want to choose to identify either way. That would make sense to me, and in many cases I feel the same way (issues may not have been the right word, so I will try cases, lol). I do not understand identifying with a group and saying you actually support the views of the other. . . which is why I asked for more clarifictaion on why somebody who supports choice identifies the group fighting to take the choice away. What would make somebody decide to identify as pro-life, instead of either pro-choice or simply not identifying at all? Or, hell, if you need to identify yourself, why not come up with another term not already bastardized by a group of people to mean something else? I am not trying to judge. I believe dialogue is vital to progress and I genuinely want to understand this perspective.

I don't know if I am explaining myself well. :?

Eited to remove a sentence I think might be more confusing, lol.

[sparkles]

I *think* I get what you are saying, but, we are not discussing a group of people who choose not to idenitfy themselves either way. I get that AND I can respect that as long as they are thoughful about it. What does confuse me is that people ARE identifying with a side they don't seem to belong to (in my opinion).

I would be fine if people felt they didn't want to choose to identify either way. That would make sense to me, and in many cases I feel the same way (issues may not have been the right word, so I will try cases, lol). I do not understand identifying with a group and saying you actually support the views of the other. . . which is why I asked for more clarifictaion on why somebody who supports choice identifies the group fighting to take the choice away. What would make somebody decide to identify as pro-life, instead of either pro-choice or simply not identifying at all? Or, hell, if you need to identify yourself, why not come up with another term not already bastardized by a group of people to mean something else? I am not trying to judge. I believe dialogue is vital to progress and I genuinely want to understand this perspective.

I don't know if I am explaining myself well. :?

Eited to remove a sentence I think might be more confusing, lol.

I honestly don't think it's that difficult to reconcile being pro-choice and choosing not to have an abortion. My position is that I support a woman's right to choose, her right to bodily autonomy. And MY CHOICE would be that I would not have an abortion, outside of a very small set of criteria. By making that choice, I'm not identifying with the group that is fighting to take that it away, I'm putting into practice what I believe. I'm exercising my right to choose. The point of being pro-choice is not that there's only ONE choice to make (which is then not a choice at all). You can choose to continue a pregnancy or you can choose to terminate it. Again, CHOICE. Reproductive freedom. I do not want ANYONE telling me what I should do with my body. Not my husband, not my daughter, not my parents or siblings, not my friends and co-workers, and certainly NOT a group of people who don't view women as being worthy of consideration as autonomous human beings.

Abortion is, at this time, a necessity for a variety of reasons. I don't think we'll ever eliminate that need in my lifetime but we sure as hell can help reduce it by providing factual, comprehensive, age-appropriate sex education starting when kids are young and making sure that safe, effective methods of birth control are readily available for all. My biggest problem with with anti-choicers is that they have yet to get on board with ANY of these options. They want it all their way. No sex education other than abstinence-only, no sex outside of marriage, no birth control--before or after marriage, no abortion even if the mother's life is in danger (so you end up with a two-fer--dead mom, dead fetus). Rational compromise is just not on their horizon.

[FearLyss]

I honestly don't think it's that difficult to reconcile being pro-choice and choosing not to have an abortion. My position is that I support a woman's right to choose, her right to bodily autonomy. And MY CHOICE would be that I would not have an abortion, outside of a very small set of criteria. By making that choice, I'm not identifying with the group that is fighting to take that it away, I'm putting into practice what I believe. I'm exercising my right to choose. The point of being pro-choice is not that there's only ONE choice to make (which is then not a choice at all). You can choose to continue a pregnancy or you can choose to terminate it. Again, CHOICE. Reproductive freedom. I do not want ANYONE telling me what I should do with my body. Not my husband, not my daughter, not my parents or siblings, not my friends and co-workers, and certainly NOT a group of people who don't view women as being worthy of consideration as autonomous human beings.

Abortion is, at this time, a necessity for a variety of reasons. I don't think we'll ever eliminate that need in my lifetime but we sure as hell can help reduce it by providing factual, comprehensive, age-appropriate sex education starting when kids are young and making sure that safe, effective methods of birth control are readily available for all. My biggest problem with with anti-choicers is that they have yet to get on board with ANY of these options. They want it all their way. No sex education other than abstinence-only, no sex outside of marriage, no birth control--before or after marriage, no abortion even if the mother's life is in danger (so you end up with a two-fer--dead mom, dead fetus). Rational compromise is just not on their horizon.

I completely agree with you. I also identify myself as pro-choice. To me it is not about the personal choice one would make, but the fact that you want the choice there. I have no issue reconciling that. It makes complete sense to me.

Maybe I misunderstood what I read, but a couple of posters said they were "pro-life" but believed women should maintain the right to choose. I was simply wondering if this "pro-life" referred to the movement we refer to as anti-choice. Since they are already choosing to identify themselves, why not identify as pro-choice? What is wrong about that term? I get that you can be pro-life, as pro-choicers are more liekly to be pro-life (all life, not just the life of a fetus), but I am having difficulty understanding why you would choose not to identify as pro-choice.

Feel free to ignore me if this is making no sense. I feel like I may not be explaining my question well. And I am certainly not directing it to right people. After happy hour, I may go back and find quotes, lol.

[FearLyss]

Clearly the issue is simply the term pro-life, as stated above. The issue to me is about choice and choice alone. I would not say I am pro-life because I would not have an abortion becuase my personal opinion does not play a role at all in my stance on importance of the right to choose.

While I think of the group as anti-choice, I call them pro-life, only because that's what they are known as by most. I guess it all comes down to the way we are defining. Which, was already brought up so I feel like a complete douche bag.

Anyway, clearly I am in need of happy hour. More than likely, I will be at the bar beating myself up for this, lol. I aplogize for the added confusion.

[theologygeek]

I *think* I get what you are saying, but, we are not discussing a group of people who choose not to idenitfy themselves either way. I get that AND I can respect that as long as they are thoughful about it. What does confuse me is that people ARE identifying with a side they don't seem to belong to (in my opinion).

I would be fine if people felt they didn't want to choose to identify either way. That would make sense to me, and in many cases I feel the same way (issues may not have been the right word, so I will try cases, lol). I do not understand identifying with a group and saying you actually support the views of the other. . . which is why I asked for more clarifictaion on why somebody who supports choice identifies the group fighting to take the choice away. What would make somebody decide to identify as pro-life, instead of either pro-choice or simply not identifying at all? Or, hell, if you need to identify yourself, why not come up with another term not already bastardized by a group of people to mean something else? I am not trying to judge. I believe dialogue is vital to progress and I genuinely want to understand this perspective.

I don't know if I am explaining myself well. :?

Eited to remove a sentence I think might be more confusing, lol.

I think it all goes back to the fact that both labels are dumb, and can't be debated properly when used. It's one of those "this sucks because someone is going to get hurt either way" things. Neither "side" fits right. No one wants children to go without water. No one wants to pay the water company President's salary when he has no problem cutting off a baby's water supply. But no one wants to take a stand and boycott either because then they will be without water. To put a label on that mess and pick a side doesn't make any sense. It's the same with abortion. I wish abortion was outlawed. I wish abortion stayed legal. How can a label be put on that and a side be chosen when neither side fits me? People pick one because they feel they have to, but is it really what they are? Who knows.

[formergothardite]

Pro-choice makes sense to me because it says exactly what the person thinks: women should have the choice.

[theologygeek]

Pro-choice makes sense to me because it says exactly what the person thinks: women should have the choice.

I'm not sure that women should always have the choice. A woman I know has a daughter who was having an affair with a married man. She was in her early twenties. She was hell bent on making him leave his wife. He thought she was on the pill. She wasn't. She thought that by getting pregnant, he would leave his wife. She got pregnant. He gave her money for an abortion, broke up with her, and made it clear that he was not going to leave his wife. The woman I know didn't want her daughter to get an abortion. She said she would raise the baby if her daughter didn't want to. The daughter got the abortion. The mother was beside herself with grief because she felt that her daughter killed her grandchild. When a baby is born, a man has to pay child support whether he wanted the baby or not. He is called scum if he is a deadbeat dad. He is told that he had no problem making the baby, and paying is the consequences of his actions. I am all for women's rights, but where does accountability come in? Why is the father told one thing and the mother is told something else? Because the mother is the one who has to go through pregnancy and labor? Shouldn't she have thought of that while she was trying to reel in a married man? Pro choice doesn't make sense to me. None of the labels do.

[formergothardite]

So the women need to be punished for having sex by having to risk their life and health? What you are saying is just another variation of slut should have kept her legs shut. I'm on my phone so someone else will have to explain the difference between child support for a child who is already born and making risk her life and emotional/physical health to keep a fetus alive.

[Anxious Girl]

I'm not sure that women should always have the choice. A woman I know has a daughter who was having an affair with a married man. She was in her early twenties. She was hell bent on making him leave his wife. He thought she was on the pill. She wasn't. She thought that by getting pregnant, he would leave his wife. She got pregnant. He gave her money for an abortion, broke up with her, and made it clear that he was not going to leave his wife. The woman I know didn't want her daughter to get an abortion. She said she would raise the baby if her daughter didn't want to. The daughter got the abortion. The mother was beside herself with grief because she felt that her daughter killed her grandchild. When a baby is born, a man has to pay child support whether he wanted the baby or not. He is called scum if he is a deadbeat dad. He is told that he had no problem making the baby, and paying is the consequences of his actions. I am all for women's rights, but where does accountability come in? Why is the father told one thing and the mother is told something else? Because the mother is the one who has to go through pregnancy and labor? Shouldn't she have thought of that while she was trying to reel in a married man? Pro choice doesn't make sense to me. None of the labels do.

So, do you think that there should be certain laws to keep women from having abortions because "you're not sure that women should always have the choice?" It's either you think they have the choices to go through a pregnancy or teminate if they wish without validating to you reasons why. If labels don't make sense to you, then why are you defending your pro-life friend? If she was indeed proud of her label, why would she care about what anonymous people on the internet have to say about her? I'm honestly not trying to be mean, but how does being pro-life support a woman who wants to go through with an abortion?

[theologygeek]

So the women need to be punished for having sex by having to risk their life and health?

If this woman didn't want to risk her life and health by getting pregnant, then why did she try to get pregnant? She would have had the baby if her boyfriend left his wife. Going by your argument, why is a man punished by paying 18 years of child support for a baby that he didn't want? On the other side, why can't a man have the right to raise a baby that is half his? If a woman wants an abortion, the man can't stop it. The point is that abortion=mess many times and the two labels don't fit at all.

[Anxious Girl]

If this woman didn't want to risk her life and health by getting pregnant, then why did she try to get pregnant? She would have had the baby if her boyfriend left his wife. Going by your argument, why is a man punished by paying 18 years of child support for a baby that he didn't want? On the other side, why can't a man have the right to raise a baby that is half his? If a woman wants an abortion, the man can't stop it. The point is that abortion=mess many times and the two labels don't fit at all.

OMG, now I have lost all fucking respect for you. Thanks to you, I lost respect for pro-life people again. Worry about youreself, and not other women who get abortions. Why are the reasons that women getting abortions so important to you and your friend? I don't care if you're friend takes in the homless or cures people of their cancer. She's associating herself with a group with people like you who question why women get abortions. Just because they do good things doesn't mean that's what their group stands for. It's like a conservative Christian giving to charity but only to look good for conservative Christians. No I'm really not sorry if you don't like it that I don't respect pro-life people. I call troll.

[Anxious Girl]

If this woman didn't want to risk her life and health by getting pregnant, then why did she try to get pregnant? have sex? She would have had the baby if her boyfriend left his wife. How do you know? Going by your argument, why is a man punished by paying 18 years of child support for a baby that he didn't want. On the other side, why can't a man have the right to raise a baby that is half his? Because men don't go through pregnancies. If a woman wants an abortion, the man can't stop it. The point is that abortion=mess many times and the two labels don't fit at all.

Translation: Because I have been on this board since 2011, I can be anti-choice and it's WRONG if people don't respect me.

[Anxious Girl]

So it looks like the troll who doesn't care about labels but claims that her pro-life friend who isn't like that and questions why women get pregnant flounces. I called it! :D