Defiant HS Valedictorian Recites Lord's Prayer

[Arete]

Sure, it wouldn't be appropriate, but if everyone there was Christian, they wouldn't find fault with it. I wonder if the speech became a news story because someone in the audience wasn't Christian AND was offended.

I'm a Christian, and I pray the Lord's prayer. I find a metric fuck ton of fault and offense at what this kid did. I do not want to go to a public event and watch a someone say a prayer that is absolutely sacred to me so that he can make a point to a captive audience that did not sign up. So I'm not getting how if everyone there were Christian, they would not fault it.

That little man ripped up his speech and said "Look at me, I'm a Christian" and then recited the prayer not to pray, but as part of a testimony. The arrogance of a 17 year old who thinks he has it all figured out.

[GeoBQn]

I don't know ... I kinda lean towards it's his speech, he should get to say whatever he wants. It isn't the same as a teacher or administrator leading the group in prayer. If he was just reading it off -- that would seem, to me, to be his option - no matter what his belief system or opinion is.

Here's what the Anti-Defamation League has to say on the matter:

Can there be prayer at graduation ceremonies? Prayers delivered by clergy at official public school graduation ceremonies are unconstitutional. The fact that a prayer is nondenominational or voluntary does not render it constitutional. The U. S. Supreme Court has not specifically ruled on whether student-initiated nonsectarian graduation prayer is constitutional, and the lower Federal courts disagree on the issue. However, when the Supreme Court ruled in Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe that a district policy allowing student-initiated and student-led prayer before football games was unconstitutional, it effectively ruled-out the possibility that any district policy allowing student-initiated and student-led prayers would be permissible at graduation ceremonies. Moreover, in both Santa Fe v. Doe and Lee v. Weisman, the Supreme Court expressed particular concern that students could be coerced, through pressure from their peers and others, into praying during school events such as football games and graduation ceremonies. This danger exists regardless of whether it is a member of the clergy or a student who offers the prayer.

The Court also emphasized in Weisman and Santa Fe that attendance at major school events like graduation or football games should not be considered "voluntary" even if authorities officially designate it as such. Weekly football games and high school graduation are central parts of student life and students should be able to attend these events without fear of religious coercion. However, baccalaureate services, which are distinct and separate from official graduation ceremonies, may constitutionally include prayers and religious sermons. Such events must be privately sponsored and must not be led or sponsored by school personnel. Any school endorsement of such events should be actively discouraged.

http://archive.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/prayer.asp

[Mama Mia]

Here's what the Anti-Defamation League has to say on the matter:

http://archive.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/prayer.asp

Seems like over kill to me. I think it's kind of pointless to even have a student give a speech if every syllable ( as one poster stated ) has to be pre-approved to conform to whatever is deemed acceptable. If they want to pray, or come out, or advocate for a shorter school year, or denounce school bullies - who is it hurting ?

Although I guess I could see a difference depending on how he worded it -- Starting off the speech by asking others to join him in prayer would be different than just reading it, I think.

[GeoBQn]

Who is it hurting? Anybody who doesn't have the same beliefs as him, who are then reminded that they are in the minority and feel pressure to participate. One of my (Jewish) cousins had to quit his college basketball team after the coach became hostile towards him because he expressed discomfort over Christian team prayers before games. Were these group prayers voluntary? Technically. But when the whole team is doing it and the coach allowed and supported them doing it before every game, it might as well be mandatory. My cousin looked like he "wasn't a team player" for not wanting to participate, and that hurt his bond with his teammates and coach.

[idonthaveajname]

My nephew was Valedictorian at his high school a few years back. I do recall at the end of his speech when he was thanking various people, he thanked God. The crowd whooped and hollered at that point, however they had been whooping and hollering the entire time so who knows?

The other kid who gave a speech was like, "Remember that one time that I wore that crazy hat at the pep rally? That was cool." "Remember that party that such-and-such threw? That was rad."

Nephew lives in the Bible belt. IIRC they opened the ceremony with a prayer as well.

[FeministShrew]

My best friend & her daughter are Baha'i. Our kids attened the same tiny local high school. The principal is Southern Baptist, & a deacon in his church (& a truly despicable human being, but that's another story!). He sponsored a "prayer vigil" at the beginning of one school year, inviting parents, students & "community leaders" (read pastors & youth pastors) to meet in the gym to pray for the faculty & students.

My friend was a little disturbed by this, but went because she was very involved with the school. She said everyone gathered in a circle, then each person was supposed to say a prayer out loud. Everyone was calling on Jesus & using all the standard prayer cliches you hear all the time if you're an evangelical Christian in the South (she's never been exposed to that brand of Christianity, having been born in PA & raised by an atheist & a Episcopalian).

When it was my friend's turn, she & her daughter read Baha'i prayers. She said everyone started fidgeting & acting uncomfortable, & the principal was looking daggers at her. After that, a lot of the other parents & teachers were noticeably cool toward her.

[MrsYoungie]

This is such an American thing. Up here we have never prayed before sports events, even back in the early 60s when we were still doing morning prayer at school. Certainly now there is no prayer during morning announcements at school. In the town I live in there is still prayer at the town council meeting. Every so often it gets suggested to drop it, but the vocal ones act like they are being crucified, so it stays. Tradition is the usual argument.

The only time I recall being uncomfortable about all the public prayer was at a Remembrance Day ceremony. I was in Scouting at the time, so we brought some of the kids with us. I was used to watching the ceremony from Ottawa which (as long as I can remember) was always very multi-faith/multi-cultural. This one in our town was very different. So many hymns. So many prayers. So much God referencing. I felt - I guess "left out" was the feeling. If I wasn't thanking God or praying for the dead soldiers, my thoughts didn't matter.

Remembrance day has always been an emotional experience for me. My father was in WW2 and lost friends. His university year book is littered with newspaper clippings: obituaries of young men who didn't see their 25th birthday. But apparently my emotions don't count because they were not Godly.

This "brave" young man, boldly saying a prayer in front of an audience chock full of people who agreed with him - was an ass. I'm sure he felt very righteous as he was applauded for his public prayer. Freaking hypocrite. (Matt 6:5)

[MrsYoungie]

My best friend & her daughter are Baha'i. Our kids attened the same tiny local high school. The principal is Southern Baptist, & a deacon in his church (& a truly despicable human being, but that's another story!). He sponsored a "prayer vigil" at the beginning of one school year, inviting parents, students & "community leaders" (read pastors & youth pastors) to meet in the gym to pray for the faculty & students.

My friend was a little disturbed by this, but went because she was very involved with the school. She said everyone gathered in a circle, then each person was supposed to say a prayer out loud. Everyone was calling on Jesus & using all the standard prayer cliches you hear all the time if you're an evangelical Christian in the South (she's never been exposed to that brand of Christianity, having been born in PA & raised by an atheist & a Episcopalian).

When it was my friend's turn, she & her daughter read Baha'i prayers. She said everyone started fidgeting & acting uncomfortable, & the principal was looking daggers at her. After that, a lot of the other parents & teachers were noticeably cool toward her.

Well naturally - because they wanted a Christian prayer vigil, but were most likely were either prohibited from saying so, or were so egocentric that they assumed only Christians pray.

[Mama Mia]

Who is it hurting? Anybody who doesn't have the same beliefs as him, who are then reminded that they are in the minority and feel pressure to participate. One of my (Jewish) cousins had to quit his college basketball team after the coach became hostile towards him because he expressed discomfort over Christian team prayers before games. Were these group prayers voluntary? Technically. But when the whole team is doing it and the coach allowed and supported them doing it before every game, it might as well be mandatory. My cousin looked like he "wasn't a team player" for not wanting to participate, and that hurt his bond with his teammates and coach.

I don't see how someone can be "hurt" by hearing someone else's views that they don't agree with. How sanitized and sheltered does the world have to be that a kid reading a prayer for 60 seconds at a large one time event is going to be damaging ? And you aren't talking about a situation like the basketball team. There are what, at least a thousand people at a typical high school graduation, and it is a one time event. Where is the peer pressure to join in ?

I could see banning obvious hate speech towards groups or individuals - but other than that it seems to be the student's opportunity to give THEIR views / philosophy / memories/ motivational thoughts. For some people that would include prayer, for others it might be a poem, or a song or their own ideas.

[GeoBQn]

I don't see how someone can be "hurt" by hearing someone else's views that they don't agree with. How sanitized and sheltered does the world have to be that a kid reading a prayer for 60 seconds at a large one time event is going to be damaging ? And you aren't talking about a situation like the basketball team. There are what, at least a thousand people at a typical high school graduation, and it is a one time event. Where is the peer pressure to join in ?

I could see banning obvious hate speech towards groups or individuals - but other than that it seems to be the student's opportunity to give THEIR views / philosophy / memories/ motivational thoughts. For some people that would include prayer, for others it might be a poem, or a song or their own ideas.

A graduation speech isn't a discussion where all participants are on an equal level and can share and debate their views. It is one person speaking to up to 1000 people who are essentially a captive audience and must listen to what the speaker says. The pressure to join in comes when most of those 1000 people bow their heads in prayer, or cheer when the person says the prayer. Who wants to be the person who gets up and leaves at that moment, inviting stares and whispered comments? If the person doesn't go along with what the crowd is doing, will people ask him about it later? It forces the person to feel different, at a time when they should be united with their class. It makes them feel uncomfortable when they should feel joy.

[Mela99]

The native girl story can be found here. Absolute crap.

shine.yahoo.com/parenting/high-school-senior-denied-diploma-for-wearing-when-did-graduation-become-a-battleground--192900808.html

[sparkles]

The speakers at my daughter's high school graduation, students, administrators and otherwise, all spoke about their shared experiences, how they'd grow and changed, what they had to look forward to, and their responsibilities as citizens of the world. The speeches and the speakers embraced the entire student body. They were funny, bittersweet, nostalgic, happy, excited and good natured.

What this little asshole did was exactly the opposite. It was meant as an act of entitlement, defiance and disrespect. Basically, he flipped the bird to everyone in the audience but the people who applauded his actions were too stupid (and similarly entitled) to realize it.

[rward]

I have to say that I really dislike districts being heavy handed on what STUDENTS are allowed to say in their speeches.

I feel it's totally appropriate for districts to be heavy handed. It's a nice welcome to the real world where you don't get to say whatever you want on someone else's dime.

[France Nolan]

It's hurtful to the studwnts who are singled out because they are of another faith or of no faith. It can be painful and people can often be hostile to them. This is all part and parcel of Christian privilege.

[emiliawasframed]

A friend of mine who is a fellow Christian professor had this to say about the incident:http://pietistschoolman.com/2013/06/07/the-lords-prayer-and-the-culture-wars/

I think his blog post is well-thought-out and nuanced--the kind of Christian intellectualism I wish there was more of.

[Mela99]

Jesus (in Matt 6:5-6) teaches us not to pray like those “hypocrites†who seek “to be seen by othersâ€:

[PennySycamore]

I want to ask all my friends if they would be so supportive if the valedictorian were Muslim, or Sikh, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Jewish, or Baha'i. Our local high school has students from all of those religions, even if only one. I have a feeling that even a Catholic prayer wouldn't have gone over well.

I would guarantee that the school in a nearby town has all those religions represented in their student body and maybe among their faculty. Liberty is close to Clemson and Daniel High. My brother teaches there. I knew one of his former students in my molecular physiology class. He was Muslim. My brother is not Jewish, but his wife and their kids are and that's the faith that's been practiced in their home for 30 years. One of their kids is now on the faculty too. Clemson is fairly diverse due to the university. Liberty may be as well. It's close enough for some profs to commute.

Btw, I can almost guarantee that Liberty has Baha'i students. I know of some Baha'i families that live there.

[bluelady]

Oh, dear. My cousin shared this on Facebook with the comment that it was awesome and that the applause was a testament. My family, while regular church attenders, are decidedly un-fundie, so his comment is a bit out of left field. Convince me not to reply...I don't want to start a family war.

[BoomerLynn]

The native girl story can be found here. Absolute crap.

shine.yahoo.com/parenting/high-school-senior-denied-diploma-for-wearing-when-did-graduation-become-a-battleground--192900808.html

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. One kid's diploma was held back because his family cheered too loud? Give me a fucking break!

Back on the original topic, I firmly believe that this kid did this solely for attention. He comes across as very arrogant. If he wanted to pray, or even mention his faith, it could have been done differently. He could have simply asked for a moment of silence, as was mentioned upthread, or even stated something like this:

" I realize that everyone here may not share my faith, but I would like to offer up a prayer for my fellow classmates, that we all find happiness and success in our futures (or something like that)" This could probably be worded better, but my brain is currently on strike.

[formergothardite]

Oh, dear. My cousin shared this on Facebook with the comment that it was awesome and that the applause was a testament. My family, while regular church attenders, are decidedly un-fundie, so his comment is a bit out of left field. Convince me not to reply...I don't want to start a family war.

Go do it! :twisted:

For real, don't if you don't want to be shunned by your family as a heathen.

[bluelady]

Go do it! :twisted:

For real, don't if you don't want to be shunned by your family as a heathen.

I wouldn't be shunned. It would start a debate, though, and I'm trying to figure out if I have the time or the energy to participate. My family loves to argue, in a debate sense, so if I start it, I would feel obliged to finish it. Although, I can argue this particular cousin under the table....

Decisions, decisions.

[Maggie Mae]

The native girl story can be found here. Absolute crap.

shine.yahoo.com/parenting/high-school-senior-denied-diploma-for-wearing-when-did-graduation-become-a-battleground--192900808.html

Private School. Totally legal, still sucks though.

My (very good in academics) private school was a nightmare with the dress codes & policies that made NO sense. I attended exactly one (1) dance because of the requirement that you attend the dance with an opposite sex partner. We had a dress code, which was unfairly enforced and nearly impossible to follow - eight pages, including definitions of things like "what is a collar" and how often teenage boys need to shave. (For some, they would have to shave after lunch to avoid detention.) Our senior yearbook photos could only be taken by a specific photographer and they all looked the same. I ended up leaving before senior year. I believe we had specific rules for what women could and couldn't wear under the graduation robes.

[dawbs]

I feel it's totally appropriate for districts to be heavy handed. It's a nice welcome to the real world where you don't get to say whatever you want on someone else's dime.

Then maybe we should work on making the real world be exposed to these kids and have it fit that.

I mean, these kids go to visit their state capital, where the day starts with a (Evangelical Christian) prayer, they go to school board meetings where the meeting starts with an (evangelical Christian) prayer...EVERY public ceremony thse kids have seen starts w/ that and then they're told "oh, but you're not allowed to do that--only elected officials are".

That's kinda BS.

[PennySycamore]

My daughter just graduated from college a few weeks ago. Now, mind you, it was college and not high school, but they actually encouraged families to cheer as their son or daughter received his/her diploma. Of course, they had a pipe band play the students in to their seats, the speakers were great, and the President of the college sang a song. He's gay, btw. Best graduation I've ever been to!

Maggie Mae, my daughter wore a strapless pink dress she'd ordered from Macy's which she altered to put a corset back in under her graduation gown. The dress was gorgeous!

[duplessis3]

I cold see banning obvious hate speech towards groups or individuals - but other than that it seems to be the student's opportunity to give THEIR views / philosophy / memories/ motivational thoughts. For some people that would include prayer, for others it might be a poem, or a song or their own ideas.

Don't fool yourself, in this context, done this way, it is hate speech. It is a big ol' FUCK YOU to all the non-Christians, as well as anyone that thinks that religion and state should be separate. This was not a prayer at all. He was doing it to show how big his dick is.